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Post by tothehouse on Jun 28, 2017 13:45:48 GMT -6
I try to yell with competition.
What I mean is...I will jump some asses. Working with our D line today on the sled. We're looking for the person to strike the sled the quickest.
So I'm yelling things like..."Matthew...fastest hands". "Reid...fastest hands". "Ben...slowest hands. You should be the fastest Ben". Then I say who might be 2nd or 3rd fastest. The point? Hoping the others want to be the guy who has the fastest hands.
In the end...everyone should get better because of the competition part.
Do I yell just to yell sometimes? Yes. I find yelling positives also helps cushion the negative shots I take.
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Post by Defcord on Jun 28, 2017 14:00:30 GMT -6
I think it all has to come back to coaching. I worked for a guy that was a master motivator. On the way out of the office a couple times a year he would say "I am going to rattle them a little. I am going to get on them a little to get them thinking. I want them uncomfortable a little. You guys bring them back to the vision." His philosophy was growth came out of your comfort zone. He would tell the kids "you can't ever bench 300 if all you put on is 135."
I always felt that he used his energy to apply pressure. It was never a reaction always proactive.
I have seen many other coaches (myself included as a younger coach) yell out of frustration. The yelling was reactive in nature and in many ways self serving. A "you better do it my way or else."
The older I have gotten the less I have yelled at kids. I dont want to motivate by that means anymore. It's like spanking my own child, sure it may have some short term effectiveness, but I question the long term benefits.
As a clarification I do think there is a difference between telling to someone and at someone. To someone I need volume so they can hear me. As a db coach and an outfield coach in baseball you need to yell so players can hear you over distance. There response also must hold a high enough volume and is welcomed. To yell at them is also loud enough that they can hear you, if they readdressed in similar tone it would be unacceptable.
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Post by carookie on Jun 28, 2017 14:22:42 GMT -6
As seen by the various comments here, its all relative as to what is too much yelling and whats not. Sort of like driving, anyone going slower than you is "some ol' gramma" while anyone going faster is a "maniac".
Long time ago during my 1st season coaching HS ball we took our team to a passing tournament, one of the teams we went up against was coached by the staff who was coaching at my HS beforehand. Many of the players brought up to me that I would get to see Coach X, and how crazy he was. Sure enough about 2 minutes in he blows his top and starts screaming across the field at one of his LBers, "What are you a f---ing p--sy? Quit backing off of the fullback" (our fullback was a beast and running option routes right at them. He continued, "He's not even that big. So f---ing get on his a-- or I'll find someone who isn't gonna play like a little b--ch." It went on like that for a while, I don't remember exactly what was said after that first tirade as I was kind of shocked; and keep in mind this was a June passing tournament and I was on the opposite sideline.
The point being this guys is probably going around thinking, 'man, you can't yell at kids anymore these days. I am just trying to make them better and prepare them for the real world; but these entitled snowflakes and their parents complain about everything." Now maybe he really feels that what he is doing is preparing them for adulthood, but its difficult to judge people on intentions- we have to judge them on actions and production. So until someone articulate specifics as to what is acceptable and unacceptable in regards to this, and where the line is and why; then I guess we are all relatively similar to this guy. I'm sure to some I yell too much, and to others I am too soft.
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 28, 2017 14:56:29 GMT -6
This is fantastic. And true. Isn't this true of every "generation" of player though? Obviously players eventually become the coaches, has there ever been a coaching staff that said of their players, "these kids are so much tougher than we were in HS" I also love the coaches that say, "these kids don't work nearly as hard as 'we' did". I always want to respond with 1 of 2 ways, 1. You're misremembering how hard you ACTUALLY worked in HS, or 2. Dude you were an SEC player, of course your worked harder than this kid that's not good enough to play for even US. I can't speak for every player out there, but in general I still see many kids that want to be held accountable, they want to make you happy, there are still kids that come out to wear the jersey, and quit after picture day. That's always happened though. I also still see many kids that do everything we ask them too, and work their butts off. I also believe many coaches mistake "kids" with situations. An example would be the coach who comes from a military family, and then coaches in a situation with broken homes with no accountability from parents. It's not that kids are that different there are just TONS of different situations in America and we're becoming more diverse every year. Maybe I'm just grumpy too I think kids are expected to work much harder year round at football than I ever was. I think they do work harder in that regard. I do know, beyond doubt that they don't begin to approach working as hard outside football as i, or other kids of my era did. Local seed corn companies used to hire local kids to detassle and rogue every summer. Me and a lot of my team mates did this and then lifted afterwards. Those same companies hire migrants now. Not because they're cheaper- you can actually pay a kid less than a migrant- but because kids won't take those jobs. They don't want physically demanding jobs. A former assistant of mine runs a landscaping business and he can't get enough kids or adults that are willing to just show up and work.
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Post by 3rdandlong on Jun 28, 2017 15:16:56 GMT -6
Isn't this true of every "generation" of player though? Obviously players eventually become the coaches, has there ever been a coaching staff that said of their players, "these kids are so much tougher than we were in HS" I also love the coaches that say, "these kids don't work nearly as hard as 'we' did". I always want to respond with 1 of 2 ways, 1. You're misremembering how hard you ACTUALLY worked in HS, or 2. Dude you were an SEC player, of course your worked harder than this kid that's not good enough to play for even US. I can't speak for every player out there, but in general I still see many kids that want to be held accountable, they want to make you happy, there are still kids that come out to wear the jersey, and quit after picture day. That's always happened though. I also still see many kids that do everything we ask them too, and work their butts off. I also believe many coaches mistake "kids" with situations. An example would be the coach who comes from a military family, and then coaches in a situation with broken homes with no accountability from parents. It's not that kids are that different there are just TONS of different situations in America and we're becoming more diverse every year. Maybe I'm just grumpy too I think kids are expected to work much harder year round at football than I ever was. I think they do work harder in that regard. I do know, beyond doubt that they don't begin to approach working as hard outside football as i, or other kids of my era did. Local seed corn companies used to hire local kids to detassle and rogue every summer. Me and a lot of my team mates did this and then lifted afterwards. Those same companies hire migrants now. Not because they're cheaper- you can actually pay a kid less than a migrant- but because kids won't take those jobs. They don't want physically demanding jobs. A former assistant of mine runs a landscaping business and he can't get enough kids or adults that are willing to just show up and work. Lots of truth to what you're saying. Kids don't work/have jobs like we used to. We used to work because we wanted a car and because we needed gas for the car. One thing I've noticed is that kids don't drive anymore nor do they really seem to want to. Not sure if this is true everywhere but this is definitely something I've noticed within the last 3 years or so. They seem perfectly fine with their parents taking them everywhere. I was too embarrassed to have my mom dropping me off everywhere.
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Post by planck on Jun 28, 2017 15:37:42 GMT -6
The longer I'm in this business, the less I yell. I've never gotten what I want by yelling.
If a kid screws up and I yell at him, now he's afraid of screwing up and he's got a complex. I haven't made him better, I haven't 'coached him up'. Anything useful that I can say loudly, I can say in a fatherly way.
If a kid is {censored} around in practice and causing a problem, escalating that situation by yelling isn't going to focus the team better. I'll pull the kid aside, explain why he's being asked to leave practice, and send him home.
Hell, I've even given up yelling at officials. It just doesn't do much for me besides raise my blood pressure.
Which, if any of you knew me, is ironic because I'm pretty much 100% intense all the time. I just haven't found yelling to be a useful coaching tool. YMMV.
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Post by 53 on Jun 28, 2017 15:56:26 GMT -6
I've read coaching books from the 40's and 50's talking about how football is one of the last bastions of building work ethic and toughness in today's society. So I don't think this is anything new.
I coach with a lot of energy and I'm naturally loud, but it's a game and we should never make it personal with the kids.
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 28, 2017 19:40:33 GMT -6
I think kids are expected to work much harder year round at football than I ever was. I think they do work harder in that regard. I do know, beyond doubt that they don't begin to approach working as hard outside football as i, or other kids of my era did. Local seed corn companies used to hire local kids to detassle and rogue every summer. Me and a lot of my team mates did this and then lifted afterwards. Those same companies hire migrants now. Not because they're cheaper- you can actually pay a kid less than a migrant- but because kids won't take those jobs. They don't want physically demanding jobs. A former assistant of mine runs a landscaping business and he can't get enough kids or adults that are willing to just show up and work. Lots of truth to what you're saying. Kids don't work/have jobs like we used to. We used to work because we wanted a car and because we needed gas for the car. One thing I've noticed is that kids don't drive anymore nor do they really seem to want to. Not sure if this is true everywhere but this is definitely something I've noticed within the last 3 years or so. They seem perfectly fine with their parents taking them everywhere. I was too embarrassed to have my mom dropping me off everywhere. I can't tell you the last kid I had that had a job in the summer before they got to their Jr year. I distinctly remember most kids my age started doing something in the summer between 8th grade and Fr year. Usually detassle. Today it seems kids either have parents that just buy them stuff- be they rich or poor- or as you said, kids that just don't care and rely on others for things. I was a little abnormal- and not just about work- but I started working for my grandpa mowing cemeteries when I was 9.
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Post by 53 on Jun 28, 2017 20:18:36 GMT -6
Lots of truth to what you're saying. Kids don't work/have jobs like we used to. We used to work because we wanted a car and because we needed gas for the car. One thing I've noticed is that kids don't drive anymore nor do they really seem to want to. Not sure if this is true everywhere but this is definitely something I've noticed within the last 3 years or so. They seem perfectly fine with their parents taking them everywhere. I was too embarrassed to have my mom dropping me off everywhere. I can't tell you the last kid I had that had a job in the summer before they got to their Jr year. I distinctly remember most kids my age started doing something in the summer between 8th grade and Fr year. Usually detassle. Today it seems kids either have parents that just buy them stuff- be they rich or poor- or as you said, kids that just don't care and rely on others for things. I was a little abnormal- and not just about work- but I started working for my grandpa mowing cemeteries when I was 9. Which is good and bad. It's great that we're building wealth and getting richer as a society. One of my grandfathers had to drop out of school in the third grade to work at a sawmill. I can't say that I'm jealous about missing out on that character building experience.
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 28, 2017 21:06:04 GMT -6
I can't tell you the last kid I had that had a job in the summer before they got to their Jr year. I distinctly remember most kids my age started doing something in the summer between 8th grade and Fr year. Usually detassle. Today it seems kids either have parents that just buy them stuff- be they rich or poor- or as you said, kids that just don't care and rely on others for things. I was a little abnormal- and not just about work- but I started working for my grandpa mowing cemeteries when I was 9. Which is good and bad. It's great that we're building wealth and getting richer as a society. One of my grandfathers had to drop out of school in the third grade to work at a sawmill. I can't say that I'm jealous about missing out on that character building experience. If you look at stats though, fewer people have wealth than did a generation ago. The middle class is becoming an endangered species. Part of kids not working is adults are being pushed into jobs that used to be reserved for kids and part of it is we as a society don't want to do physical labor regardless of age. There is something to be said for kids learning a work ethic early and realizing that things don't just materialize out of thin air for free.
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Post by 53 on Jun 28, 2017 21:21:38 GMT -6
Which is good and bad. It's great that we're building wealth and getting richer as a society. One of my grandfathers had to drop out of school in the third grade to work at a sawmill. I can't say that I'm jealous about missing out on that character building experience. If you look at stats though, fewer people have wealth than did a generation ago. The middle class is becoming an endangered species. Part of kids not working is adults are being pushed into jobs that used to be reserved for kids and part of it is we as a society don't want to do physical labor regardless of age. There is something to be said for kids learning a work ethic early and realizing that things don't just materialize out of thin air for free. I agree with you on work ethic but I disagree on the other parts besides the middle class has declined. That's not a negative though since it was due to more people moving to higher social economic classes. I'd say technology has killed more job opportunities due to the increase in labor cost than adults taking those jobs. I use to mow and work hay fields all summer. Now it's either round rolls or a square bailer just drops 8 hay bails in a bundle and you pick them up with a front loader on the tractor.
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Post by somecoach on Jun 29, 2017 10:13:15 GMT -6
I am pretty loud on the field, but I'm loud with buzzwords. One of my top pet peeves in coaching is hearing someone screaming "BLOCK SOMEBODY!!" or "WRAP UP!!" in situations they hardly apply in. That's not coaching, that's being an ignorant dick with no empathy or knowledge of actually what went wrong. That's "screaming" in my book. This needs its own thread. I want to compile a list of all of these meaningless statements so I can print it out and hand it to new coaches.
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Post by silkyice on Jun 29, 2017 10:55:43 GMT -6
I am pretty loud on the field, but I'm loud with buzzwords. One of my top pet peeves in coaching is hearing someone screaming "BLOCK SOMEBODY!!" or "WRAP UP!!" in situations they hardly apply in. That's not coaching, that's being an ignorant dick with no empathy or knowledge of actually what went wrong. That's "screaming" in my book. This needs its own thread. I want to compile a list of all of these meaningless statements so I can print it out and hand it to new coaches. Pretty sure that there is a thread somewhere on here about this.
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Post by somecoach on Jun 29, 2017 12:36:12 GMT -6
This is a Societal/Political issue that is outside of football.
I am lucky enough to coach in an area with a very high income bracket, but this comes with consequences
Many of the kids I coach can easily go on and "never work a day in their life". These kids will never have to work on a farm, lay a brick, clean a boat, bus a table, etc. They will never get yelled at, forced out of their comfort zone, or be "punched in the mouth" (all football/life lesson things). Their parents make beyond 6 figures, and will hand whatever line of work they are in over to their kids. So it is safe to assume that the only "foot up their A$$" in their entire life is going to come from us. (of course the parents that are still in touch with reality they will force their kids to get a "real" job in highschool/college just to teach them what real labor is)
Sadly the old saying "from Sandals to Sandals in 3 generations" applies here... Great Grandpa saved up enough money to get on a boat to America and was a brick layer till death to put food on the table. Grandpa was also a brick layer, got drafted into a war, fought for his life and country; and thanks to the hardwork, self discipline, and the GI Bill was able to move up in society. Father either developed a skill/business and made a fortune. Son grew up to be a spoiled brat, inherited everything from his father, hates the father, never learned anything, is a lazy bum, blows the whole fortune on drugs. In some cases there is no father and they just follow the bums in the street for guidance. Either way, they end up as an addict, in prison, and/or just OD on heroin. This is the Heroin Epidemic that plagues my area of the country. Sadly nearly everyone in my area (myself included) has had to bury family and friends due to this horrible pattern.
I believe it is our duty as coaches to build better men through discipline and work ethic. If that means hurting little Johnies feelings? So be it!
But due to the softness of this society, since the moment of birth Johnny has been told he is PERFECT just the way he is! Even if he spits in his parents face, smokes dope at 16, and has no manners what so ever! God forbid you yell at him, discipline him, or cut his "deserved" playing time! Mommy and Daddy will be on the phone instantly to tell you that you are wrong!
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Ironically, when it comes to the actual topic of getting angry at the kids; I am very mild mannered and a big positive reinforcement guy.
If you berate the kids all of the time eventually you will be tuned out. Shock Value from Yelling is like the inflation of the dollar. If you produce it too many times it gets highly circulated and each angry rant gets less and less shock value from being used too much, to the point of no shock value at all. Yet at the same time if you are a push over they will walk all over you and you won't have any control of the team.
Yelling at little johnny for messing up doesn't help him get better. Teaching him the proper techniques and holding him to a high standard does.
The same goes for gameday. Qb throws a pick, everyone with a pulse within a 200 yards radius knows he messed up, he knows he messed up, What does grabbing him by the facemask and yelling "What are you doing!!!" actually do for him? v.s. saying something along the lines of "Hey calm down, they shifted coverage on you, you have to throw to X instead of Y"
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Post by wildcatslbcoach24 on Jul 2, 2017 10:01:41 GMT -6
You have to read people and the situation. Kids aren't softer than in the past for any reason other than that adults have enabled them to become less emotionally tough and accountable. We have made it easy as a culture to give up, not care, and make mediocrity the new norm. It has come down to too many people wanting to be their kids' friends or not having the time (socioeconomic factors) and / or the will (lack of maturity or lack of empathy) by the adults in their lives.
"We" have instilled, the collective societal "We", the criminal mentality Brophy mentioned and the mentality of blaming others instead of being accountable. You have to actively teach them that I will be loud if necessary and the loudness is to get the message across and also as a way to communicate on a game night.
You need to have relationships with the kids and get to know your players. If they know you care they will respond generally well when you yell because they know it's just correction and/or you're trying to make them better. If they know WHY you're yelling, then they will generally accept it and will make corrections even if they do so grudgingly. If you're going to yell then you need to yell praise with feedback that engravings the behavior and skills you want to re-enforce. It's all management tactics. I teach my players that if I don't talk to you or don't get loud then you should be worried because I can't make ou any better because YOU have chosen to shut me out and not be your best. The reason kids are softer is because pushing yourself to be the very best is hard; takes a special boy or girl to rise above, especially if there is not a community concept of pride in work ethic and that being tough doesn't necessarily mean being able to fight, but rather it means that you're accountable and able to learn from mistakes and from others.
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 2, 2017 10:55:08 GMT -6
Regardless of where the blame lies, they're still different than perhaps any other generation of Americans before them.
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Post by adawg2302 on Jul 2, 2017 11:10:46 GMT -6
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Post by carookie on Jul 2, 2017 14:16:31 GMT -6
Regardless of where the blame lies, they're still different than perhaps any other generation of Americans before them. I think kids today are more like kids of my generation (I was born in 1980) then kids from generation are like those born pre WWII. In fact I think most coaches here are from a generation more similar to today's kids then we like to imagine. Now, I will add that our perspectives of our own generation is probably skewed. As coaches, I imagine we played the game the 'right way' accepted that we were gonna be yelled at, and hung out with people who were similar in mind to us. The truth is I knew of parents who flipped out about their kids getting yelled out, and kids quiting because of such back when I played (and I'm sure it happened before then too). Did I hang out with them? No, but they count as part of my generation as I do. I think its funny because I was having a similar conversation with my mother not so long ago. She is a Baby Boomer/Generation Joneser who is in a managerial position professionally, and complaining about how all the youngsters she is interviewing nowadays question authority, and are concerned with their own beliefs as opposed to what the boss says (unlike when she was their age). I pointed out that much of what defined people of her generation was challenging authority and looking out for their own self interests ("Me Generation"). But she didn't recognize it because when they were busy behaving like that she had her nose to the stone working to make something of herself.
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 2, 2017 15:54:25 GMT -6
As a Gen Xer the constant blame game between Boomers and Millenials is extremely annoying. They're the same people, just at different stages of their lives. And since they're both so much larger than Xers they completely drown us out.
I also have a different outlook on most things as my grandpa was born in 1912 so being around him I have a little different take on the world than people of even my own age. The most pleasant discussion I've had with my non friends this past year was with a group of Korean War vets.
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Post by bigmoot on Jul 2, 2017 21:15:23 GMT -6
you can yell at kids...they are they same as ever. if they know you care and believe in you, youre gold
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Post by coolhandluke on Jul 2, 2017 21:38:39 GMT -6
I do not believe that yelling is effective teaching, and when I find myself yelling the truth is I am frustrated at my own shortcoming. When I do this, I will always make sure I own up to it and will apologize to the player for having fallen short. I may not always love the performance, but the performer has unconditional love from me. I have found when you have built a relationship with a person, they can withstand the occasional blow up. However, if you have no relationship with the individual, it is going to become nearly impossible to get the best out of them through yelling. A coach cannot antagonize and positively influence at the same time.
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Post by coachbdud on Jul 2, 2017 22:22:27 GMT -6
it's not that you can't yell at kids anymore... it is that parents dont want you to yell at your kids anymore
parents have evolved from "yeah rip little johnny, he needs to work" to "you can't talk to my son like that"
also you have every parent, trainer, and 7on7 coach telling them how good they are from age 5 on
the only one who is honest in all of it is the HS coach but all of the above think they know more than him
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 3, 2017 14:28:16 GMT -6
it's not that you can't yell at kids anymore... it is that parents dont want you to yell at your kids anymore parents have evolved from "yeah rip little johnny, he needs to work" to "you can't talk to my son like that" also you have every parent, trainer, and 7on7 coach telling them how good they are from age 5 on the only one who is honest in all of it is the HS coach but all of the above think they know more than him Well stated.
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Post by dubber on Jul 4, 2017 7:11:56 GMT -6
One of the Big differences between now and 99......or 89.......or 79..........is the amount of time that is demanded in order to have success.
That kind of commitment takes a belief in the common goal that ANY generation would need to have.
If that is not cultivated, then you are left with "geez, why are kids such puzzies today?"
I find the way kids are today to be an advantage, IF you know how to get buy in.
As long as they buy in, and you treat them with respect, they will run through walls just like they did in 1999....except now they have a higher power index and shuttle time in regards to regal class of 99.
We kill our kids (and yes, my leaders get mf'ed in front of Jesus and their girlfriends), but we get away with it because they know we love em.
You can spank your kid unless they know you love em.
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Post by rsmith627 on Jul 4, 2017 7:18:37 GMT -6
There are some awesome posts here guys. I rip my kids all of the time and have never caught flack for it.
I'm 31, born in 1986 so I'm a millennial by most definitions (granted an old millennial). The BEST thing that I do in the classroom and on the field isn't my teaching. I'd say I'm average to good at teaching, but not excellent, not yet anyway. Still have a lot to learn about teaching and coaching here in year 10. What I do best is build relationships. I know my students and athletes, they know I care, and I can say things to them a lot of teachers and coaches can not.
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Post by fkaboneyard on Jul 5, 2017 9:15:56 GMT -6
You can yell at kids but you have to know your audience and they have to know you. If you yell at some kids they will rally, others will turtle up and suck their thumb.
As to kids working hard these days - I was at a private school where the kids worked extremely hard (harder than I did when I was a high school player) but had no killer instinct. I'm now at a public school where they don't work as hard but they have murder on their minds most of the time.
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