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Post by larrymoe on Apr 28, 2017 8:06:21 GMT -6
We tell them all of the time-that diagnosis of said disorder isn't your fault, but it is your responsibility. So you are going to have to learn how to become productive despite it. Just like another kid with diabetes, your life and choices are going to have to be different than others. Fair doesn't exist. Equal doesn't exist. Not being catty, but how often does that work?
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Post by rosey65 on Apr 28, 2017 8:10:03 GMT -6
ODD and EBD makes up half of our football team. We remind them on a regular basis, "you aren't allowed to be crazy once you leave High School." Colleges kick you out, jobs fire you. I understand the need to help and assist these kids, but the system sets them up for failure outside of school. To keep my soapbox small...accountability has been taken away from students and parents. Here in FL, EVERYTHING is tied to grades, test scores, and graduation rates. In the eyes of the state, the quality of education is meaningless as long as specific cohorts hit specific benchmarks. --here's an example: we are (usually) an A school, surrounded by F schools. We are viewed as a beacon of "All Things Perfect" in our area. We are the same inner-city school as our neighbors, but we have an IB magnet program that boosts our scores. A few years back, it was coming down to us needing 1 of 7 pre-identified "at-risk" kids to graduate and maintain our "A" status. The kids had skipped their finals, there was a massive manhunt to find just ONE of the kids over the summer, make em christmas-tree the thing, so we could pass them with a D. 1 girl was found at a strip club a few miles away. An employee snagged her when she was coming off the stage, drove her to school, the girl took 2 finals wearing her g-string and overcoat, then got driven back to work. Had we not found her, the school would have been penalized for not enough at-risk kids "graduate." --the nest year, we got penalized to a B. We were required to have 95% of kids sit for standardized tests. We were 3 short. A guidance councilor mis-counted, the whole school was penalized, we didnt get our $900 A-school bonus. Kids are allowed to do whatever they want, provided the school can show the correct number of check-marks in some pre-determined boxes. Personal accountability has dropped every year, as each class gets further indoctrinated into the system, and will continue to get worse every year. Did anyone bother to call the guy out who found her at the strip club? I can see this setting a precedent; any time a student goes missing numerous volunteers call out, "I'll check the gentleman's clubs." We were facebook-stalking the kids we were looking for. We were going by jobs, homes, rec centers...all places we knew the kids would/should be. One of the stripper's friends told us where she was, a female employee drove from school to the club to get her.
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Post by StraightFlexin on Apr 28, 2017 8:12:53 GMT -6
My school does not have any attendance policy whatsoever. Surrounding school have set guidelines like, 10 absences and lose credit. We have nothing. How can a teachers eval be held to student progress if the student never shows up. I have a girl on my caseload that has missed over 100 different class periods. Skips left and right, but nothing is ever done.
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 28, 2017 8:17:35 GMT -6
My school does not have any attendance policy whatsoever. Surrounding school have set guidelines like, 10 absences and lose credit. We have nothing. How can a teachers eval be held to student progress if the student never shows up. I have a girl on my caseload that has missed over 100 different class periods. Skips left and right, but nothing is ever done. We have the 10 absence rule, but if you get a Drs note, your absence doesn't count. We have kids miss 20-40 days a semester.
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 28, 2017 8:24:47 GMT -6
This one literally just happened. We're taking a test in American History today. Yesterday was review sheet day. I have never given out review sheets before I got to this school. We had always played Jeopardy or something, but after 2 years of kids complaining they didn't get a review sheet (because every other class gives them one that's basically just the test) I started giving them out. Easy day for me, kids get the sheet, work on it and get a completion grade for turning it in.
Today we come in class and I say you've got a test today, better look over your notes/review sheet. I then give kids about 10 mins to do that and then at the end I say "Any questions?" Keep in mind the review sheet comes directly from their PowerPoint note packet I print out. Delete some lines and make them fill it out as we go along in lecture. I mean, every answer on the test comes from the notes. Invariably though, some kids can't find stuff. Today during the 10 minutes of study time I have a kid just start looking at his phone. Fine, you don't want to pass, I don't care. But, when I ask for questions he starts reading a list of things he "couldn't find".
Since I'm gone anyway my filter is lower than normal. I just looked at him and said "Why in the hell didn't you look that up on your phone for the first 10 minutes of class?" and collected their sheets.
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Post by rosey65 on Apr 28, 2017 8:28:10 GMT -6
My school does not have any attendance policy whatsoever. Surrounding school have set guidelines like, 10 absences and lose credit. We have nothing. How can a teachers eval be held to student progress if the student never shows up. I have a girl on my caseload that has missed over 100 different class periods. Skips left and right, but nothing is ever done. That sucks. As the saying goes...you cant make chicken salad out of chicken chit. As long as 1)your admin doesnt want to "taste the chicken salad you make," and 2)you have tenure there's not a lot to do but your best. I have 2 seniors in a required class, they have not been here since February. I know for a FACT that their parents and guidance will ask me how they can pass, even with graduation in 2 weeks. "They can try over the summer" will be my exact reply. I'm lucky that my admin usually backs up our decisions.
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Post by lions23 on Apr 28, 2017 8:54:48 GMT -6
We tell them all of the time-that diagnosis of said disorder isn't your fault, but it is your responsibility. So you are going to have to learn how to become productive despite it. Just like another kid with diabetes, your life and choices are going to have to be different than others. Fair doesn't exist. Equal doesn't exist. Not being catty, but how often does that work? Fair question. Not always, but enough to keep you coming back. We can acknowledge the reasons for behavior. If I understand the reasons for some of the behaviors I might be able to talk with the experts in the building about things that I can do to improve the situation. If I talk to the experts who understand the disorders better, I also know when to call the BS and when to call the student out for using it as a crutch. I don't mind the students who have certain accommodations and I remind the students to advocate for their accommodations. I have seen enough students take advantage of those accommodations and become successful. Some have even gotten through college. However, I don't chase students to go to study skills and do their work. I remind them I am open to their extra time and to take advantage of it. They still have to learn to work. I don't care how long it takes. I want you to leave with the skills. We have the same conversation with the kids who aren't diagnosed but have poverty or home issues. We have to understand the events to form a response. The kids with the biggest issues need us the most. We can't make them all drink, but we can show them the way to the water. I won't pretend like it is easy work. It is hard to overcome some of these issues. I think that some of you are right when you say that kids take advantage of their SPED or socioeconomic baggage, but who is allowing it? I know sometimes we are hamstrung by certain administrators, but we can also get out front of some of it. I work in a tough building. Sometimes it doesn't work out for a kid. In fact a lot of times it doesn't. But a lot of times it does. It just really becomes about providing the opportunity to succeed. We can't make them do anything, but we can offer and have some support when necessary. Building relationships with kids doesn't mean I have to lower my standards and expectations. We can do that with high standards. I always just remember my dad and my HS football coach. Both were tough as chit, but both also loved the heck out of us. I think many of us probably have someone like that. When I talk with the teachers that struggle, they nearly expect perfection from the beginning and always. They sometimes miss all of the growth that takes place. Some of them also get so worked up about the 3 students who are failing or being jack_sses that they miss opportunities with the other students. Its the ...These kids... and These parents... like it is all of them. Maybe the 3 jack_sses are jack_sses and their parents are too, but not all of the kids are that way. We also have to acknowledge that the only behavior that we can really change is our own. So we can try to find solutions or we can try to find a better place to work. I think both can be valid in different situations. We have had those conversations at home. Can we make a positive change here...or should we look for a job where we fit into the culture better? My building also has very supportive and helpful admins too. I could imagine this place being much more difficult if they were not.
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bdm
Sophomore Member
Posts: 104
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Post by bdm on Apr 28, 2017 10:13:56 GMT -6
--here's an example: we are (usually) an A school, surrounded by F schools. We are viewed as a beacon of "All Things Perfect" in our area. We are the same inner-city school as our neighbors, but we have an IB magnet program that boosts our scores. A few years back, it was coming down to us needing 1 of 7 pre-identified "at-risk" kids to graduate and maintain our "A" status. The kids had skipped their finals, there was a massive manhunt to find just ONE of the kids over the summer, make em christmas-tree the thing, so we could pass them with a D. 1 girl was found at a strip club a few miles away. An employee snagged her when she was coming off the stage, drove her to school, the girl took 2 finals wearing her g-string and overcoat, then got driven back to work. Had we not found her, the school would have been penalized for not enough at-risk kids "graduate." This is one of the best stories I've ever read on here. I am lmfao and my kids are wondering what is wrong with me.
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bdm
Sophomore Member
Posts: 104
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Post by bdm on Apr 28, 2017 10:18:43 GMT -6
This one literally just happened. We're taking a test in American History today. Yesterday was review sheet day. I have never given out review sheets before I got to this school. We had always played Jeopardy or something, but after 2 years of kids complaining they didn't get a review sheet (because every other class gives them one that's basically just the test) I started giving them out. Easy day for me, kids get the sheet, work on it and get a completion grade for turning it in. Today we come in class and I say you've got a test today, better look over your notes/review sheet. I then give kids about 10 mins to do that and then at the end I say "Any questions?" Keep in mind the review sheet comes directly from their PowerPoint note packet I print out. Delete some lines and make them fill it out as we go along in lecture. I mean, every answer on the test comes from the notes. Invariably though, some kids can't find stuff. Today during the 10 minutes of study time I have a kid just start looking at his phone. Fine, you don't want to pass, I don't care. But, when I ask for questions he starts reading a list of things he "couldn't find". Since I'm gone anyway my filter is lower than normal. I just looked at him and said "Why in the hell didn't you look that up on your phone for the first 10 minutes of class?" and collected their sheets. Either this is a time warp and you and I are some how linked or something like that or we identical twins because I do this exact same thing and have the exact same problems.
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Post by CS on Apr 28, 2017 10:26:34 GMT -6
When you give kids 3 class periods to work in a project and you can tel they threw it together in 5 minutes, then they're mad that they failed. I'm living this today
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Post by rsmith627 on Apr 28, 2017 10:27:18 GMT -6
When you give kids 3 class periods to work in a project and you can tel they threw it together in 5 minutes, then they're mad that they failed. I'm living this today As am I. We also failed a quiz on something that we spent a week on in my lower level class. Hat can happen, but they complained we were spending too much time on the concept.
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Post by CS on Apr 28, 2017 10:37:55 GMT -6
Did anyone bother to call the guy out who found her at the strip club? I can see this setting a precedent; any time a student goes missing numerous volunteers call out, "I'll check the gentleman's clubs." We were facebook-stalking the kids we were looking for. We were going by jobs, homes, rec centers...all places we knew the kids would/should be. One of the stripper's friends told us where she was, a female employee drove from school to the club to get her. The really surprising thing is that she left her job to do the meaningless test. She makes more in a month than I do in 3 probably.
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Post by rosey65 on Apr 28, 2017 10:44:37 GMT -6
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Post by rosey65 on Apr 28, 2017 10:45:23 GMT -6
We were facebook-stalking the kids we were looking for. We were going by jobs, homes, rec centers...all places we knew the kids would/should be. One of the stripper's friends told us where she was, a female employee drove from school to the club to get her. The really surprising thing is that she left her job to do the meaningless test. She makes more in a month than I do in 3 probably. Im guessing they told her she needs a diploma in order to attend the JC she'll need to dance to pay for...
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 28, 2017 11:53:30 GMT -6
This one literally just happened. We're taking a test in American History today. Yesterday was review sheet day. I have never given out review sheets before I got to this school. We had always played Jeopardy or something, but after 2 years of kids complaining they didn't get a review sheet (because every other class gives them one that's basically just the test) I started giving them out. Easy day for me, kids get the sheet, work on it and get a completion grade for turning it in. Today we come in class and I say you've got a test today, better look over your notes/review sheet. I then give kids about 10 mins to do that and then at the end I say "Any questions?" Keep in mind the review sheet comes directly from their PowerPoint note packet I print out. Delete some lines and make them fill it out as we go along in lecture. I mean, every answer on the test comes from the notes. Invariably though, some kids can't find stuff. Today during the 10 minutes of study time I have a kid just start looking at his phone. Fine, you don't want to pass, I don't care. But, when I ask for questions he starts reading a list of things he "couldn't find". Since I'm gone anyway my filter is lower than normal. I just looked at him and said "Why in the hell didn't you look that up on your phone for the first 10 minutes of class?" and collected their sheets. Either this is a time warp and you and I are some how linked or something like that or we identical twins because I do this exact same thing and have the exact same problems. I feel you. I couldn't take it anymore and got out. I know there will be people at my next stop that frustrate me equally, but like I said, the admins give a crap and with a bigger school with different socio-economics, I can't see it being 80% of the population like it is here.
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Post by rsmith627 on Apr 28, 2017 12:50:47 GMT -6
Either this is a time warp and you and I are some how linked or something like that or we identical twins because I do this exact same thing and have the exact same problems. I feel you. I couldn't take it anymore and got out. I know there will be people at my next stop that frustrate me equally, but like I said, the admins give a crap and with a bigger school with different socio-economics, I can't see it being 80% of the population like it is here. High expectations are fine, but I'm in a pretty affluent school and the kids will definitely still disappoint you, and to make matters worse you'll probably have more helicopter parents wondering why little Johnny is failing and why you expect him to be accountable and do the work.
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 28, 2017 13:25:32 GMT -6
I feel you. I couldn't take it anymore and got out. I know there will be people at my next stop that frustrate me equally, but like I said, the admins give a crap and with a bigger school with different socio-economics, I can't see it being 80% of the population like it is here. High expectations are fine, but I'm in a pretty affluent school and the kids will definitely still disappoint you, and to make matters worse you'll probably have more helicopter parents wondering why little Johnny is failing and why you expect him to be accountable and do the work. I don't know that the new place would be considered affluent, but maybe more middle class. My current place was historically blue collar, factory type workers, but the economy has pretty much killed that line of work. Lots of transients, lots of welfare in the past 3 years. Enrollment has dropped 60 kids here in 5 years (230-175ish) and 1/3 of what we have left have moved in in the past 2 years. We have lots of parent involvement- In social media drama. Want to talk about grades or academics? No contact whatsoever. Don't play Johnny because he skipped practice Wed? Well, that's a problem.
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Post by coachshepherd on Apr 28, 2017 13:27:51 GMT -6
I think there are two reasons why it is becoming more and more difficult to enforce accountability and punishments: 1) Diagnosing new disorders- I am sure many people here believe that many of the new disorders being diagnosed are a bunch of BS ("we didn't have ADD back in my day"), and moreover they being overly diagnosed as many elementary school counselors are rewarded for the amount of IEPs they can write. Regardless, the issue isn't how many new disorders we find, or the validity of said disorders, the issue is how we handle them and allow them to be a crutch that validates misbehavior. We now justify allowing someone to behave wrongly because we have a name for the cause of their misbehavior; it has in essence become a disability, and to punish someone for their disability would be wrong. 2) Society has become increasingly litigious- If a parent wants to make a stink about something it can be more costly to the school to fight it then to simply give in. Students recognize this, and see that they have the upper hand in disputes with teachers in that society mandates that they specifically are at school, it doesn't mandate that you specifically be a teacher. Lol.... The new one is "Opposition Defiance Disorder". I've seen two cases of this pop up in the school this year and it's a joke. A kid is an argumentative little chit so we need to accommodate him because he has a "mental health diagnosis". I worked as a mental health counselor for awhile and these idiots have no idea what an ODD kid actually acts like. We have one with "selective mutism." Wrap your head around that one.
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 28, 2017 13:36:08 GMT -6
I wish I could have selective mutism.
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 28, 2017 13:37:08 GMT -6
I wish I could have selective mutism. "We wish you could too."- Everyone else on Earth
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Post by Coach Vint on May 1, 2017 7:19:08 GMT -6
This thread shows the real issue. The politicians and educates have basically given up on standards at most places. We have so many programs in place that it is impossible to fail... unless you try to fail... and unfortunately, some do.
What really will scare me, however, is when we start allowing the opposing coach brings over accommodations and modifications on his players. Because Johnny is slower than average in the 40, he starts 10 yards ahead of the LOS. Because our Mike struggles to process, he gets a copy of each play before it is run... That is when it will be time to get out.
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Post by rosey65 on May 1, 2017 7:39:39 GMT -6
This thread shows the real issue. The politicians and educates have basically given up on standards at most places. We have so many programs in place that it is impossible to fail... unless you try to fail... and unfortunately, some do. What really will scare me, however, is when we start allowing the opposing coach brings over accommodations and modifications on his players. Because Johnny is slower than average in the 40, he starts 10 yards ahead of the LOS. Because our Mike struggles to process, he gets a copy of each play before it is run... That is when it will be time to get out. That's really scary...and I can kinda see things like that happening. We had a TE go to Florida State, he was wrecking kids one game, got a few personal fouls, was threatened with ejection...was doing nothing wrong, simply down-blocking on a 160lb, uncoached DE. The poor kid was getting KILLED, basically picked up and driven through the rest of the DL, giant pile after giant pile. The refs didn't like it, thought it was excessive. One of the dumbest on-field things I've been a part of. I can definitely see a new generation of administrators making changes and decisions like this, tho...
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Post by larrymoe on May 1, 2017 7:44:06 GMT -6
This thread shows the real issue. The politicians and educates have basically given up on standards at most places. We have so many programs in place that it is impossible to fail... unless you try to fail... and unfortunately, some do. What really will scare me, however, is when we start allowing the opposing coach brings over accommodations and modifications on his players. Because Johnny is slower than average in the 40, he starts 10 yards ahead of the LOS. Because our Mike struggles to process, he gets a copy of each play before it is run... That is when it will be time to get out. Not to kick the hornet's nest, but don't we already have people doing that by allowing all these special needs players to "score" touchdowns?
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Post by rosey65 on May 1, 2017 7:49:31 GMT -6
This thread shows the real issue. The politicians and educates have basically given up on standards at most places. We have so many programs in place that it is impossible to fail... unless you try to fail... and unfortunately, some do. What really will scare me, however, is when we start allowing the opposing coach brings over accommodations and modifications on his players. Because Johnny is slower than average in the 40, he starts 10 yards ahead of the LOS. Because our Mike struggles to process, he gets a copy of each play before it is run... That is when it will be time to get out. Not to kick the hornet's nest, but don't we already have people doing that by allowing all these special needs players to "score" touchdowns? That's a little extreme, but definitely on the same path. We do a lot of things to help the special needs kids in our program, but it's all off-field stuff. Calling a play, giving speeches, etc...
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Post by larrymoe on May 1, 2017 7:55:40 GMT -6
Not to kick the hornet's nest, but don't we already have people doing that by allowing all these special needs players to "score" touchdowns? That's a little extreme, but definitely on the same path. We do a lot of things to help the special needs kids in our program, but it's all off-field stuff. Calling a play, giving speeches, etc... Perhaps, but it starts somewhere.
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Post by coachshepherd on May 1, 2017 8:01:29 GMT -6
This thread shows the real issue. The politicians and educates have basically given up on standards at most places. We have so many programs in place that it is impossible to fail... unless you try to fail... and unfortunately, some do. What really will scare me, however, is when we start allowing the opposing coach brings over accommodations and modifications on his players. Because Johnny is slower than average in the 40, he starts 10 yards ahead of the LOS. Because our Mike struggles to process, he gets a copy of each play before it is run... That is when it will be time to get out. That's really scary...and I can kinda see things like that happening. We had a TE go to Florida State, he was wrecking kids one game, got a few personal fouls, was threatened with ejection...was doing nothing wrong, simply down-blocking on a 160lb, uncoached DE. The poor kid was getting KILLED, basically picked up and driven through the rest of the DL, giant pile after giant pile. The refs didn't like it, thought it was excessive. One of the dumbest on-field things I've been a part of. I can definitely see a new generation of administrators making changes and decisions like this, tho... Played a veer team 4 or 5 years ago, one of my DEs got a personal foul for "Hitting the QB too hard" the white hat told me...
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Post by jgordon1 on May 1, 2017 8:58:58 GMT -6
That's really scary...and I can kinda see things like that happening. We had a TE go to Florida State, he was wrecking kids one game, got a few personal fouls, was threatened with ejection...was doing nothing wrong, simply down-blocking on a 160lb, uncoached DE. The poor kid was getting KILLED, basically picked up and driven through the rest of the DL, giant pile after giant pile. The refs didn't like it, thought it was excessive. One of the dumbest on-field things I've been a part of. I can definitely see a new generation of administrators making changes and decisions like this, tho... Played a veer team 4 or 5 years ago, one of my DEs got a personal foul for "Hitting the QB too hard" the white hat told me... I think we are going to see more of that this year with the new unprotected player rule
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Post by wolverine55 on May 1, 2017 9:20:06 GMT -6
That's really scary...and I can kinda see things like that happening. We had a TE go to Florida State, he was wrecking kids one game, got a few personal fouls, was threatened with ejection...was doing nothing wrong, simply down-blocking on a 160lb, uncoached DE. The poor kid was getting KILLED, basically picked up and driven through the rest of the DL, giant pile after giant pile. The refs didn't like it, thought it was excessive. One of the dumbest on-field things I've been a part of. I can definitely see a new generation of administrators making changes and decisions like this, tho... Played a veer team 4 or 5 years ago, one of my DEs got a personal foul for "Hitting the QB too hard" the white hat told me... In JV three or so seasons ago, we had a slot WR get called for a personal foul. The explanation I got was "Coach, he blocked him to the ground." I then almost got a 15 yarder for replying that that's what I wanted him to do!
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Post by fantom on May 1, 2017 9:29:11 GMT -6
Played a veer team 4 or 5 years ago, one of my DEs got a personal foul for "Hitting the QB too hard" the white hat told me... In JV three or so seasons ago, we had a slot WR get called for a personal foul. The explanation I got was "Coach, he blocked him to the ground." I then almost got a 15 yarder for replying that that's what I wanted him to do! Our JV's got called for an "Unnecessary block away from the play" on a bootleg.
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Post by coachcb on May 1, 2017 9:38:36 GMT -6
That's really scary...and I can kinda see things like that happening. We had a TE go to Florida State, he was wrecking kids one game, got a few personal fouls, was threatened with ejection...was doing nothing wrong, simply down-blocking on a 160lb, uncoached DE. The poor kid was getting KILLED, basically picked up and driven through the rest of the DL, giant pile after giant pile. The refs didn't like it, thought it was excessive. One of the dumbest on-field things I've been a part of. I can definitely see a new generation of administrators making changes and decisions like this, tho... Played a veer team 4 or 5 years ago, one of my DEs got a personal foul for "Hitting the QB too hard" the white hat told me... I was coaching a youth league ball game many years ago and the officials called "unnecessary roughness" on our strong guard three times. I asked him three times what happened and he fed me bullchit the first two times: "He was leading with his head, coach". This was complete crap as I watched that guard the whole time (he was kicking out on Bucksweep..) and the kid was getting great, clean blocks on their force player.I finally lost it on the third call and told him to get his officiating handbook out and point out what the kid did wrong. "He's playing too rough coach! He's going to hurt that kid!" The game was a chit show.. Both teams played very physical ball and there were "unnecessary roughness" all over the place. They pulled all of the coaches in and told us to "tell the kids to lay off" of they'd end the game. I called their bluff and told them to go ahead and end the game because I wouldn't tell our players to stop playing hard. But, it was miserable, nonetheless. The game last three and a half hours because of all the calls.
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