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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 22, 2017 8:09:18 GMT -6
I'm having a hard time sympathizing with the HC who agreed to do this. Even if the AD said to, it just seems like a really really bad idea, not to mention how it affects the players. Anybody think of the reasoning that you would ever throw a game? Not really, but I do have a little more sympathy for the HC here without more facts. It seems as if in this situation, it may not have been the HC's job to be aware of eligibility. That part has never been made clear. Also, in the articles read, it seems that the HC was told by the ADs that the player in question WAS eligible, and then after he played it they were told, "Oh, no we were wrong, he was ineligible, I have to turn you guys in and you have to forfeit now" So now you are the HC, you were TOLD you could play the guy, after playing him, you are told "no, we were wrong" and now you know you will have to forfeit this game, and the previous game which apparently takes you out of the playoffs and the Admin you report to may (or may not) have told you "Hey, if you lose this game on purpose, all of this disappears and you guys are in the playoffs....." I can have sympathy for a guy in that position.
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fugulookinat
Junior Member
"Eye see DEAD people!"
Posts: 437
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Post by fugulookinat on Apr 22, 2017 14:08:07 GMT -6
I've seen it happen. There are so many teams in Texas that we have a Division 1 and Division 2 playoffs, each crowning a State Champion for each classification (6A division 1, 6A Division 2). To make the playoffs, you have to be one of the top 4 teams in your district ( usually 7-9 teams) based upon your record within the district, non district games don't matter. Once the 4 teams have been established, then the enrollment of each school will determine who goes D1 and who goes D2. The 2 largest schools will be the #1 seed or the #2 seed of the D1 bracket. The 2 smaller schools would be seeded and placed into D2.
So let's say you're locked in to the playoffs going into week 10. If you beat your week 10 opponent (Team A) then team A is out and Team B gets in. If you lose to Team A, both you and Team A are in and team B is out. Now, if you beat Team A, Team B gets in and they have a smaller enrollment than you, so they go D2 which forces you into D1. Congrats, you now match up with the defending state champion in the first round of the D1 playoffs. However, if you chose to "Rest" your starters during week 10 and Team A beats your Backups/JV then Team A gets in. Team A has a larger enrollment so they matchup with the defending state champs in D1 and now you play some nobody 5-5 school in the first round of D2.
Teams don't get out there and turn the ball over on purpose, but I have seen good teams lose in week 10 to set themselves up for a better playoff spot.
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Post by gccwolverine on Apr 22, 2017 17:07:41 GMT -6
I feel like each state's playoff system should be determined by people from out of state who don't like football so their only motivation is that it makes sense. The Ohio system is the best I've ever seen or been apart of and I'm familiar with the system of quite a few states
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famar
Sophomore Member
Looking to learn as much as I can from this site and all of the coaches here.
Posts: 208
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Post by famar on Apr 22, 2017 18:42:11 GMT -6
Here's a question: Did Dunbar need the ineligible player in order to win the game? If the player didn't affect the outcome of the game, then the coach is as much to blame as the administrators. Why jeopardize your integrity, your season, and possibly your livelihood over one player?
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 22, 2017 18:44:17 GMT -6
Here's a question: Did Dunbar need the ineligible player in order to win the game? If the player didn't affect the outcome of the game, then the coach is as much to blame as the administrators. Why jeopardize your integrity, your season, and possibly your livelihood over one player? Because they were told he was eligible?
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Post by silkyice on Apr 22, 2017 20:10:20 GMT -6
I think that's the cause. VideoSorry, can't view it. I have asked about it multiple times here, but whenever I click on a link here on huey, it opens another tab but in the address window it just says "about :blank" I can't copy and paste like I usually do because you titled it "video" so copying and pasting just puts "video" in the address bar of the new open tab Edit...when I but it in bbcode I was able to cut and paste... BUT does ANYONE...I MEAN ANYONE have a clue why I havent been able to click on a link the past few years? Same reason the search function is terrible.
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Post by Chris Clement on Apr 24, 2017 6:56:24 GMT -6
I feel like each state's playoff system should be determined by people from out of state who don't like football so their only motivation is that it makes sense. The Ohio system is the best I've ever seen or been apart of and I'm familiar with the system of quite a few states That's a frightening thought.
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Post by coachchambers on Apr 24, 2017 7:02:09 GMT -6
Because of this fiasco, my alma mater and younger brother had to play a team that normall we do not see untill the regional finals in Trotwood Madison.
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Post by coachchambers on Apr 24, 2017 7:06:44 GMT -6
But that is because they played an ineligible player and had to forfeit that game (and others). I am assuming then that by throwing the game, they would not have reported the ineligible player? Is that the assumption being made? I think that's the cause. VideoMy senior year(2015-2016), I played belmont first round of the playoffs. 10 times out of 10 they would lose to dunbar. They are not good.
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Post by gccwolverine on Apr 24, 2017 7:59:55 GMT -6
The Ohio system is the best I've ever seen or been apart of and I'm familiar with the system of quite a few states That's a frightening thought. It's far better than the stupid district system that so many state have. So many states with 5 team districts where 4 teams make it... or worse 4 team districts where each team makes it. Just dumb. Ohio your strength of schedule and wins determine who gets in.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 24, 2017 9:42:11 GMT -6
1. They can't prove that the team was trying to throw the game... That is all hearsay and should be completely thrown out when it comes to disciplining the program. They don't have, voice message, text or email evidence stating "LOSE THIS GAME! SO WE CAN SCREW UP THE PLAY-OFFS!". It's all one side's word against another.
2. The administration appears to have f-ed this one up... There's not reason coaches would bench a kid because he was ineligible, toss him back in and then pull him back out if they weren't getting information from the powers-that-be. But, again, this turns into the coaches' words versus the administration. In that case, they lose.
I will say this.. If I had been in the coaches' shoes, I just would have left the kid on the bench. There was a text from the administration saying he was ineligible and I would have just gone with that. But, then again, I have dealt with a seriously shady administration a few years ago that left tread marks all over my back.
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Post by fantom on Apr 24, 2017 10:06:30 GMT -6
1. They can't prove that the team was trying to throw the game... That is all hearsay and should be completely thrown out when it comes to disciplining the program. They don't have, voice message, text or email evidence stating "LOSE THIS GAME! SO WE CAN SCREW UP THE PLAY-OFFS!". It's all one side's word against another. Did you watch the video?
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Post by coachcb on Apr 24, 2017 10:23:47 GMT -6
1. They can't prove that the team was trying to throw the game... That is all hearsay and should be completely thrown out when it comes to disciplining the program. They don't have, voice message, text or email evidence stating "LOSE THIS GAME! SO WE CAN SCREW UP THE PLAY-OFFS!". It's all one side's word against another. Did you watch the video? I had to tinker around to pull it up.... WOW... That is friggin' awful. I retract my earlier statement. Those coaches are idiots. Can 'em all.
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Spread 'em out
Sophomore Member
"It's not the load that breaks you down, but how you carry it." -Lou Holtz
Posts: 156
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Post by Spread 'em out on Apr 24, 2017 10:25:57 GMT -6
I'm having a hard time sympathizing with the HC who agreed to do this. Even if the AD said to, it just seems like a really really bad idea, not to mention how it affects the players. Anybody think of the reasoning that you would ever throw a game? I'm not an HC, but even as an assistant I think if those were my instructions from a superior than I would tell them they have to fire me for insubordination because I just can't imagine doing that. How in the world is that fair to your kids who have sweat and bled for you? Where is your loyalty to them? That's just garbage all the way around by everyone involved.
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Spread 'em out
Sophomore Member
"It's not the load that breaks you down, but how you carry it." -Lou Holtz
Posts: 156
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Post by Spread 'em out on Apr 24, 2017 10:28:29 GMT -6
I'm having a hard time sympathizing with the HC who agreed to do this. Even if the AD said to, it just seems like a really really bad idea, not to mention how it affects the players. Anybody think of the reasoning that you would ever throw a game? Not really, but I do have a little more sympathy for the HC here without more facts. It seems as if in this situation, it may not have been the HC's job to be aware of eligibility. That part has never been made clear. Also, in the articles read, it seems that the HC was told by the ADs that the player in question WAS eligible, and then after he played it they were told, "Oh, no we were wrong, he was ineligible, I have to turn you guys in and you have to forfeit now" So now you are the HC, you were TOLD you could play the guy, after playing him, you are told "no, we were wrong" and now you know you will have to forfeit this game, and the previous game which apparently takes you out of the playoffs and the Admin you report to may (or may not) have told you "Hey, if you lose this game on purpose, all of this disappears and you guys are in the playoffs....." I can have sympathy for a guy in that position. Just read your response after my first initial post. You're right. If through the situation he felt he could do right by his players then I would say he has my sympathy. Just seems crazy that throwing a game can possibly help you.
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Post by fkaboneyard on Apr 24, 2017 11:01:30 GMT -6
I don't think they are going to have to fire the HC, I imagine that will take care of itself when nobody will play for the S.O.B. that told them to throw the playoff game and got them bounced out of their shot at a title.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 24, 2017 20:04:48 GMT -6
I don't think they are going to have to fire the HC, I imagine that will take care of itself when nobody will play for the S.O.B. that told them to throw the playoff game and got them bounced out of their shot at a title. What are you talking about? Is that a different situation that isn't being discussed here?
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Post by dytmook on Apr 25, 2017 18:37:49 GMT -6
I don't think they are going to have to fire the HC, I imagine that will take care of itself when nobody will play for the S.O.B. that told them to throw the playoff game and got them bounced out of their shot at a title. Some updated things. Apparently the parents and kids really want the head coach to stay. The kid was the starting QB I believe and Dunbar was up I think when they put the kid in. It should be noted that Dunbar's RB has a OSU and Bama offer and one of their WR's has a B10 offer. Hand the ball off to the stud and bubble to the WR. At the heart of the issue is that the HC, School AD, and District AD could not calculate a block schedule GPA and they were including gym as a core class which it isn't in Ohio. The HC played the kid after the principal told them to not play them. There is a list of text messages where they principal asks a coach why the kid is going in. The coach says I don't know Baker gave the okay. The principal says "he just #%%# us". The District AD is also up for a 2 year extension at a meeting this week. It was reported the coaching contracts were approved but then it was retracted. It's not Baker's first time in trouble either. Here is a quote from the paper about 8 years ago, "Dominique Reed said he had endured enough verbal abuse by Graham prior to the fight. "I've got to work on my temper," Dominique said, "but I've never been one to put up with people calling me out by my name. It was in front of all my teammates, and I can't let nobody think that I'm soft. "So when we get to the locker room, Coach (Baker) was like, 'Go ahead, bang it out.' "
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Post by dytmook on Apr 25, 2017 18:45:05 GMT -6
The Ohio system is the best I've ever seen or been apart of and I'm familiar with the system of quite a few states That's a frightening thought. If I'm not mistaken you're a math guy. Here is how the break down is: www.ohsaa.org/sports/ft/boys/rankcalc.htmBasically if you beat teams of higher enrollment you get more points. If those teams happen to win games you get secondary points. So playing schools that are good and/or above you can help a lot of teams get into the playoffs. hence why the D1 winner this year was 5-5 going into the playoffs. They play a ridiculous schedule. We didn't make the playoffs mainly because we lost too many games...but we've made the playoffs with the same record too. Our league opponents didn't have a great year. The system may not be perfect, but at least it's not super easy to rig via gerrymandering
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Post by Chris Clement on Apr 25, 2017 19:21:45 GMT -6
I suppose they didn't anticipate that someone would be in a position to order one of the teams in his dirstrict to forfeit in order to get his district a second home playoff date and both teams would be incentivized because it would allow one team to cover up an ineligible player and another to make the playoffs.
I can follow the math but it's not really a clean system. Especially with the divisor stuff, it's quite poor technical writing.
Too many enrolment classes seems to be a problem, you can't build a schedule around teams in your area, but there's also the desire to have "state" champions, so you get eight enrolment classes and one geographic class, instead of, say, four and two where you could make conferences of all teams in the same enrolment class.
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Post by dytmook on Apr 26, 2017 11:30:04 GMT -6
The system has been in place for 40 years and this is the first time it has at least publicly had such an issue so it's working okay.
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Post by Chris Clement on Apr 26, 2017 15:49:35 GMT -6
I was being a touch facetious
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Post by dytmook on Apr 27, 2017 10:39:28 GMT -6
I was at work which makes me dense. Also they approved the district AD for an extension by a vote of 5-1
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Post by fantom on Apr 27, 2017 11:00:41 GMT -6
I was at work which makes me dense. Also they approved the district AD for an extension by a vote of 5-1 That's what I like about this board. Whenever I start feeling like our district is the most phuked up in the country I read stories like this and I realize how good I have it.
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Post by dytmook on Apr 30, 2017 14:23:20 GMT -6
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Post by badtotheflexbone on Apr 30, 2017 16:56:31 GMT -6
Educate me, how would the other team have possibly found out the other player was ineligible?
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Post by Chris Clement on Apr 30, 2017 17:33:10 GMT -6
Probably just people talking.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 30, 2017 18:07:11 GMT -6
Educate me, how would the other team have possibly found out the other player was ineligible? In this case, both schools were in the same school district, run by the same district wide administration. However, in most cases, I really don't know of a mechanism to keep dishonest school admins from not self reporting academic ineligibility issues.
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Post by dytmook on May 1, 2017 15:00:19 GMT -6
Educate me, how would the other team have possibly found out the other player was ineligible? All admins in the system have access to everyone's grades. The other principal heard the rumor, checked the grades, and sent word to the principal to alert her she may have an eligibility issue on her hands.
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Post by jrk5150 on May 1, 2017 15:35:01 GMT -6
Interesting decision by the HC. And not in a good way.
You want to protest the instructions? Then just go win the game.
You want to comply with the instructions? Then put your JV team or the back-ups to the back-ups on the field and play the game.
He did neither, he sent his starters back out and had them make a mockery of it. Basically the worst of both worlds.
He was put in a bad situation, and then he handled it poorly.
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