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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 19, 2017 11:48:49 GMT -6
Curious about your age. I am guessing < 30 I have to disagree with your first statement. How else would a program, or most any organization that needs to constantly make decisions operate? I think you are confusing two issues : 1) The head coach is in charge and what he says goes 2) The HC is infallible and clearly the most intelligent and "best" coach on the staff and therefore should make all decisions without regard to anyone else's opinions or experiences. The 2nd point above is simply bad coaching, not an archaic or outdated opinion. It has never been good coaching. The first point is just the reality of any hierarchy based organization. Someone HAS to be the final decision maker. Over 30 by a few years. It's been the tone of everything prior to this that I've read on this thread the HC is a hybrid of the 2. Of course he makes final decisions & of course he handles administrative duties, but the leadership component doesn't have to be inherently standoffish. It almost seems as if the easier path, guys that just nod yes in agreement would be preferable to the usually more effective approach, a smart group of guys who challenge one another to be better. The hardest and almost impossible thing to do in the world is positionally eliminate contributions while asking for blind loyalty, and that's not reserved for coaching, that's in anything. Again if it meant greater success or increased productivity and "what the HC says, goes", as the HC I would just change what I said... in all things football scheme and personnel wise Again, I think you are mixing two things though. I don't know that anyone here is supporting the idea that it is optimal for a HC to disregard suggestions. The discussion here originally started as a "what does a HC do once he makes a decision, and the asst don't let it go" If a HC is presented a better idea, and chooses not to implement it, that's on him. His loss. But for a program to function, what the HC says must go. |
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Post by s73 on Apr 19, 2017 19:15:17 GMT -6
Curious about your age. I am guessing < 30 I have to disagree with your first statement. How else would a program, or most any organization that needs to constantly make decisions operate? I think you are confusing two issues : 1) The head coach is in charge and what he says goes 2) The HC is infallible and clearly the most intelligent and "best" coach on the staff and therefore should make all decisions without regard to anyone else's opinions or experiences. The 2nd point above is simply bad coaching, not an archaic or outdated opinion. It has never been good coaching. The first point is just the reality of any hierarchy based organization. Someone HAS to be the final decision maker. Over 30 by a few years. It's been the tone of everything prior to this that I've read on this thread the HC is a hybrid of the 2. Of course he makes final decisions & of course he handles administrative duties, but the leadership component doesn't have to be inherently standoffish. It almost seems as if the easier path, guys that just nod yes in agreement would be preferable to the usually more effective approach, a smart group of guys who challenge one another to be better. The hardest and almost impossible thing to do in the world is positionally eliminate contributions while asking for blind loyalty, and that's not reserved for coaching, that's in anything. Again if it meant greater success or increased productivity and "what the HC says, goes", as the HC I would just change what I said... in all things football scheme and personnel wise You are not presenting my position correctly. I said above, I want a guy to SHOW me he can coach first. If he handles position duties well early on and shows some maturity with kids, etc then we move to the next phase. Unfortunately....many young guys want to jump to the X's and O's immediately & few realize it's not just what you can draw up on paper but what the kids can handle. Furthermore, how many inexperienced guys have the wisdom to understand adjustments and how to handle them? Too many cooks spoil the stew and IMO too many young guys want to appear at the top of the ladder instead of climb it. Not all, but I've had quite a few & I find it irritating. These are my experiences & as a result have influenced my opinions. |
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Post by coachcb on Apr 20, 2017 8:40:40 GMT -6
The bottom line with this thread is simple: it doesn't matter if you're working for an idiot HC or a HOF HC because everything comes down to him and his call. There's nothing wrong with voicing your opinion and having "discussions" at times but you WILL hit a wall in certain situations. Coaches need to recognize when they have hit that wall, shut up and then move on. I have worked under some fantastic HCs and I have worked under some that were complete tools that had zero leadership skills and didn't know the game. I spent a lot of time bickering with latter in my formative years and it was a waste of time and energy and inevitably made ME look bad, not the HC.
Here's an exceptional example of this last statement:
I was a RB/LB coach under a freshman HC/OC that was clueless. It was a huge program in a school with over 2100 kids with 115 out for football. 60 of those kids were freshman. The varsity HC was new to the program and is a great coach but he was trying to get his varsity running and didn't have the time nor the patience to deal with b.s. from the freshman staff.
We got thumped our first game of the year and looked like total crap. The varsity HC pulled us into the office after the game and wanted to talk about what happened. The idiot freshman HC/OC started making excuses for why we got thumped ("We're not very good!", "Can't make chicken salad out of chicken chit!", etc..). I opened my mouth and pointed out about a dozen areas where we needed to improve. The freshman HC/OC and I get into it in front of the varsity HC and nothing is accomplished. These little meetings happened five times during the season and both myself and the freshman HC/OC looked bad. But, the freshman HC/OC just looked incompetent while I looked incompetent AND insubordinate.
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jbutch17
Freshmen Member
[F4:@JButch17]
Posts: 95
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Post by jbutch17 on Apr 20, 2017 10:14:43 GMT -6
Over 30 by a few years. It's been the tone of everything prior to this that I've read on this thread the HC is a hybrid of the 2. Of course he makes final decisions & of course he handles administrative duties, but the leadership component doesn't have to be inherently standoffish. It almost seems as if the easier path, guys that just nod yes in agreement would be preferable to the usually more effective approach, a smart group of guys who challenge one another to be better. The hardest and almost impossible thing to do in the world is positionally eliminate contributions while asking for blind loyalty, and that's not reserved for coaching, that's in anything. Again if it meant greater success or increased productivity and "what the HC says, goes", as the HC I would just change what I said... in all things football scheme and personnel wise Again, I think you are mixing two things though. I don't know that anyone here is supporting the idea that it is optimal for a HC to disregard suggestions. The discussion here originally started as a "what does a HC do once he makes a decision, and the asst don't let it go" If a HC is presented a better idea, and chooses not to implement it, that's on him. His loss. But for a program to function, what the HC says must go. It isn't being presented as that, in the least bit. There isn't a bit of confusion with what is being said or 2 independent things being said. What business wouldn't maximize the entirety of the labor force that it has? Additionally, there isn't a business in the world where there is a hiring for a position and as stated a few times are educated, credentialed professionals asked to "prove themselves" or be a "good soldier" in what could as randomly be the best or worst situations out there? Look, I went through the early years of my career believing all of these axioms as truth like the rest of you, but why handcuff yourselves? And really I asked and compared it to business because it is applicable since this is our livelihood (or a portion of it). It's not even a real problem that I am in the minority. As to a later poster and movement up the ladder, who's to say when that time is right for you and your family? Or what preparation amount or type is the right type? If you get opportunities no matter how rapid to move up, is it a faux pas to take it? These things really come to light when there are struggles faced probably with the base stuff correct? This doesn't seem to be the characteristics of situations where things are going particularly well. Again, I'm not really confused as to what is being posed here and I don't confuse any questions of the status quo to be discontent, misguided, or wrong. |
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Post by coachcb on Apr 20, 2017 12:00:51 GMT -6
Over 30 by a few years. It's been the tone of everything prior to this that I've read on this thread the HC is a hybrid of the 2. Of course he makes final decisions & of course he handles administrative duties, but the leadership component doesn't have to be inherently standoffish. It almost seems as if the easier path, guys that just nod yes in agreement would be preferable to the usually more effective approach, a smart group of guys who challenge one another to be better. The hardest and almost impossible thing to do in the world is positionally eliminate contributions while asking for blind loyalty, and that's not reserved for coaching, that's in anything. Again if it meant greater success or increased productivity and "what the HC says, goes", as the HC I would just change what I said... in all things football scheme and personnel wise You are not presenting my position correctly. I said above, I want a guy to SHOW me he can coach first. If he handles position duties well early on and shows some maturity with kids, etc then we move to the next phase. Unfortunately....many young guys want to jump to the X's and O's immediately & few realize it's not just what you can draw up on paper but what the kids can handle. Furthermore, how many inexperienced guys have the wisdom to understand adjustments and how to handle them? Too many cooks spoil the stew and IMO too many young guys want to appear at the top of the ladder instead of climb it. Not all, but I've had quite a few & I find it irritating. These are my experiences & as a result have influenced my opinions. I am taking over the DC spot in a solid program next year. The HC and I will hammer out the base scheme that we're going to run and then the rest of the staff will have input on Xs and Os if: 1. it doesn't involve a change in front or personnel. 2. It doesn't involve adding a new coverage. 3. It doesn't change any of our existing coverages. We're going to dial in heavily on fundamentals and what the expectations are. I will convey that to the staff by telling them what we need to see: alignment, assignment, angles, shedding, tackling and coverage principles. I will then go through some sample drills that they can use to teach the kids these skills. I've gone through HUDL film and we need some serious fundamental reps in all areas. |
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Post by craines10 on Apr 20, 2017 12:38:19 GMT -6
What would you do, if you were the head coach, and an assistant such as you brought up a similar issue to him? I would tell him moving our starting RG to FB does not help us in anyway.. |
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Post by craines10 on Apr 20, 2017 12:46:53 GMT -6
I guess "lose" is the wrong word...I will lay out a specific debate from last year: Watching film from the night before and we score on a FB dive from the 2 yard line... HC: This week when we work goal line I want to see JC at FB Me: Why? HC: When he moved here in the summer he was a FB/LB and I think he will help us there Me: Well who is going to play RG? HC: We got QH, DC, and TA Me: You just said the previous series that QH cant be in the game on a Friday night anymore, DC is hurt and didnt dress, and TA has never played on the line HC: JC give us more of a blocking threat at FB than GL do...and he probably run the ball better Me: Well who gonna block for JC? What we gonna do if Wednesday during goalline one of the scout defense players accidentally go low when JC coming at them...and he get hurt...then we lose our starting RG to an unnecessary injury HC: What if he get hurt during goalline at RG..we still lose him.. Me: I can live with that...he got hurt playing HIS position HC: Bottom line...we gonna essentially put him there because its my ship and I want to see him at FB Honestly, I don't have a problem with the way that conversation ended. Sounds like it was a two-way conversation, you both said your piece, neither convinced the other, so he makes the decision because his opinion carries more weight than yours. You didn't include the next line, but if there was one I hope it said: Me: Yes sir, we'll make this work. Next line was .."Ok coo..I will move him to FB" |
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 20, 2017 14:49:48 GMT -6
Again, I think you are mixing two things though. I don't know that anyone here is supporting the idea that it is optimal for a HC to disregard suggestions. The discussion here originally started as a "what does a HC do once he makes a decision, and the asst don't let it go" If a HC is presented a better idea, and chooses not to implement it, that's on him. His loss. But for a program to function, what the HC says must go. It isn't being presented as that, in the least bit. There isn't a bit of confusion with what is being said or 2 independent things being said. What business wouldn't maximize the entirety of the labor force that it has? Additionally, there isn't a business in the world where there is a hiring for a position and as stated a few times are educated, credentialed professionals asked to "prove themselves" or be a "good soldier" in what could as randomly be the best or worst situations out there? Look, I went through the early years of my career believing all of these axioms as truth like the rest of you, but why handcuff yourselves? And really I asked and compared it to business because it is applicable since this is our livelihood (or a portion of it). It's not even a real problem that I am in the minority. As to a later poster and movement up the ladder, who's to say when that time is right for you and your family? Or what preparation amount or type is the right type? If you get opportunities no matter how rapid to move up, is it a faux pas to take it? These things really come to light when there are struggles faced probably with the base stuff correct? This doesn't seem to be the characteristics of situations where things are going particularly well. Again, I'm not really confused as to what is being posed here and I don't confuse any questions of the status quo to be discontent, misguided, or wrong. Forgive me, as I am the confused one and I have NO idea what you are trying to say here. What isn't being presented "as that, in the least bit" In this thread there a few different concepts, some being: 1) The Original Poster's scenario where he is asking if it is possible that disagreements among staff become a problem that hinders the program. 2) Several examples by other posters where HC has given a firm and final directive, and asst coaches still persist in arguing. 3) Several examples by other posters where asst coaches disagree with the HC, feel they are correct, and are discouraged by the final answer being "because I am the HC and I say so" leading to the idea that while the HC might not always be right, he is always the HC. 4) Your first post in the thread, stating that you think the concept of #3, with the HC having the final say because he is the HC as archaic and outdated. 5) My response to your #4, saying that while I don't think very many quality HC's think they know everything, the only manner that such an organization can function decently is indeed with one person having the final say so. You seem to agree with this, but then go on about how you feel all suggestions should be valid. 6) Your above post, which I really don't follow. You state : I am quite certain that the entirety of the labor force of Disney does not have the ear of Bob Iger (the CEO). There are countless non entry level positions in the corporate world that don't get equal say so. But more importantly, any organizations that has the volume of decisions that a football program faces simply can't operate without a sole decision maker. Are you suggesting that everything be put to a vote, and all staff members have an equal say so? What exactly are you trying to convey? I don't think anyone here is suggesting that it is a best practice for a HC to ignore any and all input and ideas, but at somepoint, a decision must be made, and the program must move on. Don't you agree? Are you suggesting that every decision should be put to a vote, and all staff members hold equal weight? |
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Post by coachwoodall on Apr 21, 2017 8:58:58 GMT -6
there seems to be a difference of opinion in this thread
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Post by rosey65 on Apr 21, 2017 9:01:28 GMT -6
there seems to be a difference of opinion in this thread I disagree #DontDrinkTheSyrup #HCproblems #RPOforlife |
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Post by s73 on Apr 21, 2017 16:22:50 GMT -6
Again, I think you are mixing two things though. I don't know that anyone here is supporting the idea that it is optimal for a HC to disregard suggestions. The discussion here originally started as a "what does a HC do once he makes a decision, and the asst don't let it go" If a HC is presented a better idea, and chooses not to implement it, that's on him. His loss. But for a program to function, what the HC says must go. It isn't being presented as that, in the least bit. There isn't a bit of confusion with what is being said or 2 independent things being said. What business wouldn't maximize the entirety of the labor force that it has? Additionally, there isn't a business in the world where there is a hiring for a position and as stated a few times are educated, credentialed professionals asked to "prove themselves" or be a "good soldier" in what could as randomly be the best or worst situations out there? Look, I went through the early years of my career believing all of these axioms as truth like the rest of you, but why handcuff yourselves? And really I asked and compared it to business because it is applicable since this is our livelihood (or a portion of it). It's not even a real problem that I am in the minority. As to a later poster and movement up the ladder, who's to say when that time is right for you and your family? Or what preparation amount or type is the right type? If you get opportunities no matter how rapid to move up, is it a faux pas to take it? These things really come to light when there are struggles faced probably with the base stuff correct? This doesn't seem to be the characteristics of situations where things are going particularly well. Again, I'm not really confused as to what is being posed here and I don't confuse any questions of the status quo to be discontent, misguided, or wrong. I have to agree w/ coachD on this one. Not sure what you are saying exactly. Not all coaches are created equal & IMO there is no substitute for experience. Here's my experience & where I'm coming from. We had a season where we were struggling some on offense. We were running the same system we ran the previous season and averaged 30/ game. Talent was similar to previous season but teams we were playing were maybe defending us a bit better than the previous season. On Saturday I sit the staff down and look at film and start recognizing our fundamentals are not as good as they were the year before. I immediately recognized that we needed to improve sustaining blocks as well as some missed assignments. Young guy (2nd year coach) chimes in with "some ideas" he's been going over. These ideas included a HB pass (I coach the line and he did not know how he wanted it blocked) in which he did not know what coverage we would be facing next week or match ups. The next suggesting he had was a reverse & reverse pass (again w/o viewing film of next opponent, not even knowing if they would be over playing pursuit, and again not knowing how to block it b/c he didn't know what front we would be facing). The next suggestion was implementing a 5 step game & extending our passing tree. I said, why don't we work on getting better at our base stuff first before we add a bunch of stuff. He became pouty and withdrawn. Later he approached me in private & said he didn't feel he was getting the "voice" he wanted. I told him I didn't feel he was ready for all that. I asked him several basic questions related to our current offense and he had a lot of trouble answering most of them. I told him when he had mastery of what we currently do then we can start looking at some of his "ideas'. I have other guys w/ more experience & knowledge who have made several suggestions related to our defense and coverages in particular that are helpful & involve CONTINUITY to what we are doing. I have approved many of these suggestions. I think this is a reasonable and rational approach to my staff & disagree it is archaic in anyway. If the first guy wants more say, learn the game better & make suggestions that have CONTINUITY to what we are doing & don't involve me having to develop extra schemes to make them work b/c he doesn't know how to make them work he just thinks the plays look real SLICK ON PAPER. JMO. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 23, 2017 9:49:34 GMT -6
What would you do, if you were the head coach, and an assistant such as you brought up a similar issue to him? I would tell him moving our starting RG to FB does not help us in anyway.. Coach, I don't believe that was what blb was asking. It seems to me he was asking "What would you do if you as a HC TOLD an asst coach you wanted to do something, and the reply was first 'why' and then followed with a litany of argumentative points against what you TOLD him you wanted" I honestly think a lot of the things brought up in your example craines10 are a matter of presentation. You took the HC's order as a question. Perhaps it would have been more appropriate to initially respond to his directive with "Ok coach, we can do that, but I don't think it is best for the team" If he asks why, there is room for discussion, if he replies in a manner that stifles discussion, you do it and move on. |
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jbutch17
Freshmen Member
[F4:@JButch17]
Posts: 95
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Post by jbutch17 on Apr 24, 2017 9:52:08 GMT -6
there seems to be a difference of opinion in this thread Shouldn't there be? Isn't that the function of conversation boards? Difference in opinion doesn't even mean conflict, There is a presumption that years of experience automatically equates to prowess in coaching. While it is helpful to be able to reference and recall situations and their outcomes from other times in history, it is not a guarantee that the longer one coaches (especially in the same position, at the same school, and in the same regime) that they will continue to improve or grow as a coach. In a perfect world, that'd be the way things would go, but we live in FAR from a perfect world. A previous post referenced a coach "proving he can coach his position before a suggestion would be fielded, etc". It's hard or nearly impossible to try and challenge the status quo. I've read and responded to the portions of this conversation that have pertained to me & I still haven't read much that changes the thoughts I had when I entered into this. No not every suggestion needs to be implemented or possible suggestion heard, if I were to dismiss something or just not use someone's suggestion it would have more to do with the message than the messenger. |
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Post by coachcb on Apr 24, 2017 10:20:38 GMT -6
It isn't being presented as that, in the least bit. There isn't a bit of confusion with what is being said or 2 independent things being said. What business wouldn't maximize the entirety of the labor force that it has? Additionally, there isn't a business in the world where there is a hiring for a position and as stated a few times are educated, credentialed professionals asked to "prove themselves" or be a "good soldier" in what could as randomly be the best or worst situations out there? Look, I went through the early years of my career believing all of these axioms as truth like the rest of you, but why handcuff yourselves? And really I asked and compared it to business because it is applicable since this is our livelihood (or a portion of it). It's not even a real problem that I am in the minority. As to a later poster and movement up the ladder, who's to say when that time is right for you and your family? Or what preparation amount or type is the right type? If you get opportunities no matter how rapid to move up, is it a faux pas to take it? These things really come to light when there are struggles faced probably with the base stuff correct? This doesn't seem to be the characteristics of situations where things are going particularly well. Again, I'm not really confused as to what is being posed here and I don't confuse any questions of the status quo to be discontent, misguided, or wrong. I have to agree w/ coachD on this one. Not sure what you are saying exactly. Not all coaches are created equal & IMO there is no substitute for experience. Here's my experience & where I'm coming from. We had a season where we were struggling some on offense. We were running the same system we ran the previous season and averaged 30/ game. Talent was similar to previous season but teams we were playing were maybe defending us a bit better than the previous season. On Saturday I sit the staff down and look at film and start recognizing our fundamentals are not as good as they were the year before. I immediately recognized that we needed to improve sustaining blocks as well as some missed assignments. Young guy (2nd year coach) chimes in with "some ideas" he's been going over. These ideas included a HB pass (I coach the line and he did not know how he wanted it blocked) in which he did not know what coverage we would be facing next week or match ups. The next suggesting he had was a reverse & reverse pass (again w/o viewing film of next opponent, not even knowing if they would be over playing pursuit, and again not knowing how to block it b/c he didn't know what front we would be facing). The next suggestion was implementing a 5 step game & extending our passing tree. I said, why don't we work on getting better at our base stuff first before we add a bunch of stuff. He became pouty and withdrawn. Later he approached me in private & said he didn't feel he was getting the "voice" he wanted. I told him I didn't feel he was ready for all that. I asked him several basic questions related to our current offense and he had a lot of trouble answering most of them. I told him when he had mastery of what we currently do then we can start looking at some of his "ideas'. I have other guys w/ more experience & knowledge who have made several suggestions related to our defense and coverages in particular that are helpful & involve CONTINUITY to what we are doing. I have approved many of these suggestions. I think this is a reasonable and rational approach to my staff & disagree it is archaic in anyway. If the first guy wants more say, learn the game better & make suggestions that have CONTINUITY to what we are doing & don't involve me having to develop extra schemes to make them work b/c he doesn't know how to make them work he just thinks the plays look real SLICK ON PAPER. JMO. This is a common theme throughout many threads on this board over the years.. We had a very good athlete one year that we were moving around quite a bit. He wasn't getting many touches so we bumped him to our FB position to get him the ball more. He spent a week practicing the position (Belly, Down, Buck, etc..) and looked alright at practice. But, he put the ball on the ground three times during the game. His footwork was terrible, he wasn't taking the hand-off right and it was awful. He popped off one big run on a FB toss but barely caught the pitch.. I pulled him after the first quarter. We were watching the film of it the next day and one of the assistants had a list of a dozen different ways to get him the ball.. Now, his wrinkles did follow the rules (no addition of formations or blocking schemes) but we just needed to get that kid better at playing the FB spot. I told him that the kid needed to get as many reps at the FB spot as possible that week and my assistant was pretty indignant. I gave him kudos for following the "rules" but I also told him that we weren't going to reinvent the wheel with new stuff when he just needed to be coached up at the FB spot. Long story short, the kid got turn after turn during the week but completely blew the Buck footwork on the first offensive play of the next game. He was supposed to get the ball on Buck trap but he ran a Belly track instead.. Luckily, the QB had enough brains to tuck it and take off. I immediately pulled the kid.. |
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red
Freshmen Member
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Post by red on Apr 24, 2017 10:37:07 GMT -6
To be a good leader you have to be a good follower.
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Post by Chris Clement on Apr 24, 2017 12:00:22 GMT -6
Why? How are those skill sets related?
@cbcoach sounds like your assistant might have had the better idea...
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Post by s73 on Apr 24, 2017 15:46:14 GMT -6
Why? How are those skill sets related? @cbcoach sounds like your assistant might have had the better idea... I know this wasn't presented to me as a question but I will answer. I think a good leader needs multiple points of perspective and as a result will benefit & become a better leader when he has had a chance to follow as well. JMO. |
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