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Post by CS on Apr 17, 2017 10:41:21 GMT -6
First year at my current job I had a position coach that would always question the way I wanted things done. We did not get along and had to be separated a handful of times but never in front of the kids. I told HC after the season he's gone or I am gone. He's gone. HC lets me run defense/special teams my way and will give me ideas and play devils advocate at times. Sometimes it's good, sometimes I flat out tell him I'm doing it my way, end of story.I want my position coaches do to what I tell them to do. If they have ideas they can bring them to me and we can check it out. No freelancing. Not to be blunt but if I was the HC and you told me that your going to do it your way, end of story regardless what I said....then you would probably be looking for a job. Understand that he is allowing you to call whatever it is your getting to call. Like others have said its the HC ship, either take orders and do what is asked of you or find another ship. I have obliged a HC one time that wanted to try something new in the middle of the season. I let him know that I didn't like it and for what reasons but I did it anyway. Now we weren't world beaters but this was a cluster. Kids didn't know how to line up or adjust so we ended back up in our base stuff. Bottom line is whether you like it or not he's the boss so even if he is making a mistake and you see the train coming you have to just let him get hit by it.
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Post by BrendanQB on Apr 17, 2017 12:35:53 GMT -6
Not to be blunt but if I was the HC and you told me that your going to do it your way, end of story regardless what I said....then you would probably be looking for a job. Understand that he is allowing you to call whatever it is your getting to call. Like others have said its the HC ship, either take orders and do what is asked of you or find another ship. I have obliged a HC one time that wanted to try something new in the middle of the season. I let him know that I didn't like it and for what reasons but I did it anyway. Now we weren't world beaters but this was a cluster. Kids didn't know how to line up or adjust so we ended back up in our base stuff. Bottom line is whether you like it or not he's the boss so even if he is making a mistake and you see the train coming you have to just let him get hit by it. I think this is the right answer but it's so hard to bite the bullet in this situation. You know he's making a mistake and you know your kids are being put in a bad situation but you just have to let the kids suffer because of the head coach's decision. I really think if I was ever in this situation I would just start looking for another job. A HC who doesn't believe in what his staff (especially coordinators) do is not a good HC. I've always been a believer that it's best to do what you're good at (even if it's not the best scheme) because your kids will feel more comfortable in it. For example if you've run cover 3 successfully all season and your head coach wants to run a lot of 2 in a playoff game, it may be good schematically, but your kids will feel more comfortable (and probably play better) if you just leave them in 3.
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Post by veerman on Apr 17, 2017 12:53:56 GMT -6
Not to be blunt but if I was the HC and you told me that your going to do it your way, end of story regardless what I said....then you would probably be looking for a job. Understand that he is allowing you to call whatever it is your getting to call. Like others have said its the HC ship, either take orders and do what is asked of you or find another ship. I am blunt, no offense taken. I am blessed to have a good relationship with the HC, plus we have been together for years. If I phuk up I will take the ass chewing and accept responsibility... but winning and leading the state in shut outs cures everything. I think you also added a key element, and that's the relationship with each other. Their are some that I would be willing to take more off of cause our relationship is stronger (been thru the tuff times and the good). But as a rule of thumb the HC tells everyone what to do when its all said and done... even best friends.
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Post by craines10 on Apr 17, 2017 14:03:04 GMT -6
I've known a lot of guys who claim they don't want "yes men", but instantly go on the defensive anytime someone challenges them with a different idea. I think issues arise when A) HCs rely on their authority to be trump card (I'm right because I am the HC) and B) when assistants don't accept that being the HC is the trump card. Starting with point A, if you are a HC and you are claiming to be open to advice or challenge, then you better be able to defend your opinion empirically with logic. If you have to just talk over the AC or hold authority over him as the key to winning the debate then why even ask for advice. Conversely, for point B- if you can't accept that the HC will justify some decisions based solely on his position then don't coach for him. This is why I prefer to work for HCs who say from the start, "I appreciate your knowledge, but we are gonna do it this way." Maybe because thats how I always do it too. Thats my problem...I can deal with the fact that HC has final word...what I dont like is when he tries to engage in debate and starts to lose...then goes..."Bottom line...we essentially gonna do it this way because this my ship and my name is behind them wins and losses"
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Post by CS on Apr 17, 2017 15:33:17 GMT -6
I've known a lot of guys who claim they don't want "yes men", but instantly go on the defensive anytime someone challenges them with a different idea. I think issues arise when A) HCs rely on their authority to be trump card (I'm right because I am the HC) and B) when assistants don't accept that being the HC is the trump card. Starting with point A, if you are a HC and you are claiming to be open to advice or challenge, then you better be able to defend your opinion empirically with logic. If you have to just talk over the AC or hold authority over him as the key to winning the debate then why even ask for advice. Conversely, for point B- if you can't accept that the HC will justify some decisions based solely on his position then don't coach for him. This is why I prefer to work for HCs who say from the start, "I appreciate your knowledge, but we are gonna do it this way." Maybe because thats how I always do it too. Thats my problem...I can deal with the fact that HC has final word...what I dont like is when he tries to engage in debate and starts to lose...then goes..."Bottom line...we essentially gonna do it this way because this my ship and my name is behind them wins and losses" Then quit cause bottom line is its his @$$ if you lose. That's why I went along with my HC when he wanted to try a new defense against a certain team and I taught it to the defense like it was the answer to the team we were playing. I fought tooth and nail to not do it when he wanted to but he's the boss. What the big man wants the big man gets.
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Post by s73 on Apr 17, 2017 17:22:43 GMT -6
First off, I WANT YES MEN IF......they are young inexperienced guys who have a lot of learning to do. Have had a few guys in my tenure that have little experience but still want an equal voice. I know this can be controversial to say, especially around younger coaches, but when I was coming up I had to pay my dues and some of that involved keeping my ears open and mouth shut. ESPECIALLY if that guy hasn't opened our playbook or viewed hudl film or been in the weight room since the day the season ended. NOW...if a guy with some experience and previous success and preps the right way has an opinion? By all means. With that said, it crosses a line when you disagree & think it's over with and find out he's still b!tching about it after the fact to other staff members. JMO. See, I disagree with this thinking. I understand what you are saying as far as earning the right to speak and have a say, but I disagree with it for two reasons. First, if you were hired by the HC then that HC believes you have something to contribute. You'd be surprised what you can learn from somebody who "doesn't know anything" about the game. Case and point would be that in the past I have given my brother access to Hudl to watch our games and give me his thoughts. He never played past JV and would be the textbook definition of a casual fan, but he sees things that go past me and our other coaches sometimes. 90% of his comments were babble that didn't do us any good, but every game he watched there would be at least one thing he caught that we didn't. Kinda like the old saying, we see the forest, he sees the trees. So, I don't like the idea of stifling conversation because you "need to put in your dues." I'll take 9 s*** comments if the next one produces a diamond. Second, by wanting rookies to earn their stripes you are creating a culture that fears criticism or failure. I can't tell you how many times I spouted off an opinion as a young coach only to be told (in some way or other) "You don't know what the F*** you're talking about and here's why." To me, each of these occasions was a GREAT learning experience that I wouldn't have had if I had kept my mouth shut. Yes, the young know-it-all gets annoying at times, but if that guy knows his role and learns through it I think it can really be valuable. This was the basic reason for my creating this thread and I have loved the opinions I've heard. I'm having trouble with an assistant who goes along with what we're doing, but he's not on board. He'll coach the drills, correct the mistakes, etc, but he keeps offering the same suggestions, which I've shot down numerous times, and won't take the time to learn what we're doing. He knows what he knows and that's good enough for him. We're short on coaches, but the other ones we have are good, young assistants who are eager to learn and I'm ready to be done with him. I just wasn't sure if I was justified. I guess I don't see why coaching FB is any different than any other endeavor. The 1st year out of college kid doesn't get to sit in the board room and tell the CEO what his thoughts are. I could give a million more analogies like this. Now...I understand that a HS FB staff is a much smaller dynamic than a large corporation. But...if I hire a newbie, I don't want to hear much from him until I know he is interested in learning from US FIRST. I also want to see him in action on the field, how he handles kids, what his organization is like, etc. This comes BEFORE he gets to "do the X's & O's". Show me your serious about your own development & the development of the program, show me you can teach fundamentals on the field, then we can start talking about your ideas. Sorry, but the "everybody gets a voice" instead of "everybody earns a voice" right or wrong just feels too similar to "everybody gets a trophy to me". If a guy is serious he will EARN his voice. JMO.
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Post by s73 on Apr 17, 2017 19:45:30 GMT -6
I've known a lot of guys who claim they don't want "yes men", but instantly go on the defensive anytime someone challenges them with a different idea. I think issues arise when A) HCs rely on their authority to be trump card (I'm right because I am the HC) and B) when assistants don't accept that being the HC is the trump card. Starting with point A, if you are a HC and you are claiming to be open to advice or challenge, then you better be able to defend your opinion empirically with logic. If you have to just talk over the AC or hold authority over him as the key to winning the debate then why even ask for advice. Conversely, for point B- if you can't accept that the HC will justify some decisions based solely on his position then don't coach for him. This is why I prefer to work for HCs who say from the start, "I appreciate your knowledge, but we are gonna do it this way." Maybe because thats how I always do it too. Thats my problem...I can deal with the fact that HC has final word...what I dont like is when he tries to engage in debate and starts to lose...then goes..."Bottom line...we essentially gonna do it this way because this my ship and my name is behind them wins and losses" If you want to do it your way and you don't care that it's his name on the line then get your own job. It's easy to phuk it up when you don't have to talk to reporters afterwards, answer parent phone calls and explain to the AD why your team looked like such a friggin' cluster last Friday night.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 17, 2017 21:23:45 GMT -6
Thats my problem...I can deal with the fact that HC has final word...what I dont like is when he tries to engage in debate and starts to lose...then goes..."Bottom line...we essentially gonna do it this way because this my ship and my name is behind them wins and losses" Then quit cause bottom line is its his @$$ if you lose. That's why I went along with my HC when he wanted to try a new defense against a certain team and I taught it to the defense like it was the answer to the team we were playing. I fought tooth and nail to not do it when he wanted to but he's the boss. What the big man wants the big man gets. craines10 How does a HC start to lose a debate involving his or her own program? What CS says is correct. If you disagree with your HC, and you can't get over it then quit. Keep in mind we pretty much saw this happen at at Top 5 Level program in college football the last few seasons. As the time passes, more and more stories are coming out of Baton Rouge that are really surprising to almost hard to believe.
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Post by fantom on Apr 17, 2017 21:33:50 GMT -6
Differences of opinion are one thing. This guy just isn't doing his job. Get rid of him.
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Post by craines10 on Apr 18, 2017 6:34:55 GMT -6
Thats my problem...I can deal with the fact that HC has final word...what I dont like is when he tries to engage in debate and starts to lose...then goes..."Bottom line...we essentially gonna do it this way because this my ship and my name is behind them wins and losses" Then quit cause bottom line is its his @$$ if you lose. That's why I went along with my HC when he wanted to try a new defense against a certain team and I taught it to the defense like it was the answer to the team we were playing. I fought tooth and nail to not do it when he wanted to but he's the boss. What the big man wants the big man gets. Yeah it took me a year to accept it...but thats what I do. I give my 2 cents and roll with the call...whatever happens after that happens
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Post by craines10 on Apr 18, 2017 6:47:17 GMT -6
Then quit cause bottom line is its his @$$ if you lose. That's why I went along with my HC when he wanted to try a new defense against a certain team and I taught it to the defense like it was the answer to the team we were playing. I fought tooth and nail to not do it when he wanted to but he's the boss. What the big man wants the big man gets. craines10 How does a HC start to lose a debate involving his or her own program? What CS says is correct. If you disagree with your HC, and you can't get over it then quit. Keep in mind we pretty much saw this happen at at Top 5 Level program in college football the last few seasons. As the time passes, more and more stories are coming out of Baton Rouge that are really surprising to almost hard to believe. I guess "lose" is the wrong word...I will lay out a specific debate from last year: Watching film from the night before and we score on a FB dive from the 2 yard line... HC: This week when we work goal line I want to see JC at FB Me: Why? HC: When he moved here in the summer he was a FB/LB and I think he will help us there Me: Well who is going to play RG? HC: We got QH, DC, and TA Me: You just said the previous series that QH cant be in the game on a Friday night anymore, DC is hurt and didnt dress, and TA has never played on the line HC: JC give us more of a blocking threat at FB than GL do...and he probably run the ball better Me: Well who gonna block for JC? What we gonna do if Wednesday during goalline one of the scout defense players accidentally go low when JC coming at them...and he get hurt...then we lose our starting RG to an unnecessary injury HC: What if he get hurt during goalline at RG..we still lose him.. Me: I can live with that...he got hurt playing HIS position HC: Bottom line...we gonna essentially put him there because its my ship and I want to see him at FB
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 18, 2017 7:09:49 GMT -6
craines10 How does a HC start to lose a debate involving his or her own program? What CS says is correct. If you disagree with your HC, and you can't get over it then quit. Keep in mind we pretty much saw this happen at at Top 5 Level program in college football the last few seasons. As the time passes, more and more stories are coming out of Baton Rouge that are really surprising to almost hard to believe. I guess "lose" is the wrong word...I will lay out a specific debate from last year: Watching film from the night before and we score on a FB dive from the 2 yard line... HC: This week when we work goal line I want to see JC at FB Me: Why? HC: When he moved here in the summer he was a FB/LB and I think he will help us there Me: Well who is going to play RG? HC: We got QH, DC, and TA Me: You just said the previous series that QH cant be in the game on a Friday night anymore, DC is hurt and didnt dress, and TA has never played on the line HC: JC give us more of a blocking threat at FB than GL do...and he probably run the ball better Me: Well who gonna block for JC? What we gonna do if Wednesday during goalline one of the scout defense players accidentally go low when JC coming at them...and he get hurt...then we lose our starting RG to an unnecessary injury HC: What if he get hurt during goalline at RG..we still lose him.. Me: I can live with that...he got hurt playing HIS position HC: Bottom line...we gonna essentially put him there because its my ship and I want to see him at FB I have to be honest... you come off like the frustrating one in this exchange, not your HC. I see his reply here as 100% appropriate. Sounds like you think your HC is stupid. The solution is either resign, or shut up and deal (Like they did in Baton Rouge)
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Post by Coach Vint on Apr 18, 2017 7:23:11 GMT -6
The problem is looking at the debate as a win/lose. I don't want to win a debate. I want to win the game. I am not arrogant enough to think that I have always have the best ideas. As a staff we talk through things on Saturday and Sunday. We meet briefly each day to discuss personnel, game plan install, and practice plans. We look for the best way to do things. We don't focus on who came up with the idea, we focus on what will work best for our kids. When we walk on the field we are unified in our approach, whether it was the OL's idea, the RB's idea, or the 7th grade B team coach who is entering data. If it is something you disagree with, once you walk on the field, you have to coach it like it is the best way to win.
The worst thing you can do is coach something half way. Even worse than that is saying, "I told you that wouldn't work," to that coach or to another coach. We have done some dumb crap in a games, some by my design, and some by the design of others. No matter how dumb the idea might be, we all had to own it. We wall had to be unified. When we weren't unified it magnified the stupidity.
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Post by funkfriss on Apr 18, 2017 7:24:57 GMT -6
craines10 How does a HC start to lose a debate involving his or her own program? What CS says is correct. If you disagree with your HC, and you can't get over it then quit. Keep in mind we pretty much saw this happen at at Top 5 Level program in college football the last few seasons. As the time passes, more and more stories are coming out of Baton Rouge that are really surprising to almost hard to believe. I guess "lose" is the wrong word...I will lay out a specific debate from last year: Watching film from the night before and we score on a FB dive from the 2 yard line... HC: This week when we work goal line I want to see JC at FB Me: Why? HC: When he moved here in the summer he was a FB/LB and I think he will help us there Me: Well who is going to play RG? HC: We got QH, DC, and TA Me: You just said the previous series that QH cant be in the game on a Friday night anymore, DC is hurt and didnt dress, and TA has never played on the line HC: JC give us more of a blocking threat at FB than GL do...and he probably run the ball better Me: Well who gonna block for JC? What we gonna do if Wednesday during goalline one of the scout defense players accidentally go low when JC coming at them...and he get hurt...then we lose our starting RG to an unnecessary injury HC: What if he get hurt during goalline at RG..we still lose him.. Me: I can live with that...he got hurt playing HIS position HC: Bottom line...we gonna essentially put him there because its my ship and I want to see him at FB Honestly, I don't have a problem with the way that conversation ended. Sounds like it was a two-way conversation, you both said your piece, neither convinced the other, so he makes the decision because his opinion carries more weight than yours. You didn't include the next line, but if there was one I hope it said: Me: Yes sir, we'll make this work.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 18, 2017 10:16:11 GMT -6
Just to play devils advocate, how many of you have been in a situation (like larrymoe) where it seems most friction doesn't involve as much X and O talk, but more program, practice and organization. If the HC is screwing this up, and everyone around him knows it, to me the whole "he signs my paycheck" BS goes out the window. Again, behind closed doors, but I think if you are truly in it for the kids, this kind of stuff has to be addressed. If it isn't, a death spiral begins and you're all screwed in the end. If it may be things that can be fixed by putting your heads together and finding solutions, why wouldn't you embrace that. Now I know that the discussion will now turn to blaming incompetent assistants who don't know what the HC knows, and that is a very true statement. I am talking about competent, professional assistants and head coaches. If you have a bunch of boneheads working for you, our your HC is a bonehead, no amount of talking it out is ever gonna make a difference and you need to vacate that situation as soon as possible. Then, basically, you just eat the chit sandwich and look to move on if it's bad enough. I was a freshman in a program with a freshman level HC/OC that didn't have a clue what he was doing. Practice schedules were terrible, we jumped around with our schemes constantly and got mauled week after week. To make matters worse, we had a lot of kids out at the lower level and he wouldn't let us play all of them. The overall HC stepped in on several occasions but he was just as frustrated as everyone else. I made the mistake of continually voicing my opinion and we had a ton of fights in the coaches' office. Things spiraled out of control, the varsity HC was p-ssed about our bickering and we all ended up canned. I probably would have survived the culling if I had just kept my mouth shut. It would have just been easier to be the "Yes Man" and ask the freshman HC what he was looking for out of my positions each week when he was trying to pass the buck. "The LBs suck!" "Yeah, they're struggling. Do you have any read drills that you think I should be doing?"
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Post by craines10 on Apr 18, 2017 10:34:36 GMT -6
I guess "lose" is the wrong word...I will lay out a specific debate from last year: Watching film from the night before and we score on a FB dive from the 2 yard line... HC: This week when we work goal line I want to see JC at FB Me: Why? HC: When he moved here in the summer he was a FB/LB and I think he will help us there Me: Well who is going to play RG? HC: We got QH, DC, and TA Me: You just said the previous series that QH cant be in the game on a Friday night anymore, DC is hurt and didnt dress, and TA has never played on the line HC: JC give us more of a blocking threat at FB than GL do...and he probably run the ball better Me: Well who gonna block for JC? What we gonna do if Wednesday during goalline one of the scout defense players accidentally go low when JC coming at them...and he get hurt...then we lose our starting RG to an unnecessary injury HC: What if he get hurt during goalline at RG..we still lose him.. Me: I can live with that...he got hurt playing HIS position HC: Bottom line...we gonna essentially put him there because its my ship and I want to see him at FB I have to be honest... you come off like the frustrating one in this exchange, not your HC. I see his reply here as 100% appropriate. Sounds like you think your HC is stupid. The solution is either resign, or shut up and deal (Like they did in Baton Rouge) I thought THAT specific situation was stupid. I know he has final say..when he asks for my thoughts I give them...but the final say is his..always has always will...but there are instances where there is a discussion involving the gameplan that is back and forth....and it seems like that is his closing statement because he has no rebuttal..I guess that is what gets to me..if you start the "debate" you cant end it with that closing statement. All that being said though when it is over its over, and nothing leaves the meeting room EVER
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Post by craines10 on Apr 18, 2017 10:38:15 GMT -6
The problem is looking at the debate as a win/lose. I don't want to win a debate. I want to win the game. I am not arrogant enough to think that I have always have the best ideas. As a staff we talk through things on Saturday and Sunday. We meet briefly each day to discuss personnel, game plan install, and practice plans. We look for the best way to do things. We don't focus on who came up with the idea, we focus on what will work best for our kids. When we walk on the field we are unified in our approach, whether it was the OL's idea, the RB's idea, or the 7th grade B team coach who is entering data. If it is something you disagree with, once you walk on the field, you have to coach it like it is the best way to win. The worst thing you can do is coach something half way. Even worse than that is saying, "I told you that wouldn't work," to that coach or to another coach. We have done some dumb crap in a games, some by my design, and some by the design of others. No matter how dumb the idea might be, we all had to own it. We wall had to be unified. When we weren't unified it magnified the stupidity. Believe me my intent is always to win the game. When its over its over. When we leave that meeting room its never brought up again. If it dont work we lost as a team..I wouldnt use the "I told you that wouldnt work" because we as a staff should adjust to what is not working during the game.
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Post by CS on Apr 18, 2017 10:41:51 GMT -6
I have to be honest... you come off like the frustrating one in this exchange, not your HC. I see his reply here as 100% appropriate. Sounds like you think your HC is stupid. The solution is either resign, or shut up and deal (Like they did in Baton Rouge) I thought THAT specific situation was stupid. I know he has final say..when he asks for my thoughts I give them...but the final say is his..always has always will...but there are instances where there is a discussion involving the gameplan that is back and forth....and it seems like that is his closing statement because he has no rebuttal..I guess that is what gets to me..if you start the "debate" you cant end it with that closing statement. All that being said though when it is over its over, and nothing leaves the meeting room EVER Not trying to pile it on you or anything and asking questions isn't a problem but your first question is "Why?" That seems disrespectful to me and you probably should have led with your second question. To be honest, I don't see much reason to debate with a superior. It's a lose-lose situation that is all lose-lose for you and none for them usually. Give him your thought and he can go with it or not
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Post by cwaltsmith on Apr 18, 2017 10:47:02 GMT -6
I have experienced both sides. And as stated relationship does play a roll. I tell my asst in the first meeting this:
If you always agree with me I dont really need you, but on the other hand I don't need a coach that disagrees constantly. That endangers the common vision IMHO. I enjoy the questioning of ideas. It makes me be more prepared bc I have asst that ask the whys and hows. But If you question everything I will begin to get the idea that you dont ever thik I have a good idea and that means one of us needs to go!
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Post by craines10 on Apr 18, 2017 10:55:54 GMT -6
I thought THAT specific situation was stupid. I know he has final say..when he asks for my thoughts I give them...but the final say is his..always has always will...but there are instances where there is a discussion involving the gameplan that is back and forth....and it seems like that is his closing statement because he has no rebuttal..I guess that is what gets to me..if you start the "debate" you cant end it with that closing statement. All that being said though when it is over its over, and nothing leaves the meeting room EVER Not trying to pile it on you or anything and asking questions isn't a problem but your first question is "Why?" That seems disrespectful to me and you probably should have led with your second question. To be honest, I don't see much reason to debate with a superior. It's a lose-lose situation that is all lose-lose for you and none for them usually. Give him your thought and he can go with it or not I could see that...
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Post by veerman on Apr 18, 2017 11:00:29 GMT -6
I have to be honest... you come off like the frustrating one in this exchange, not your HC. I see his reply here as 100% appropriate. Sounds like you think your HC is stupid. The solution is either resign, or shut up and deal (Like they did in Baton Rouge) I thought THAT specific situation was stupid. I know he has final say..when he asks for my thoughts I give them...but the final say is his..always has always will...but there are instances where there is a discussion involving the gameplan that is back and forth....and it seems like that is his closing statement because he has no rebuttal..I guess that is what gets to me..if you start the "debate" you cant end it with that closing statement. All that being said though when it is over its over, and nothing leaves the meeting room EVER I may be missing something here, cause I don't see where the HC was looking to debate...His statement was he wanted a particular player at a particular position. Didn't see where he asked what your thoughts on moving the kid. He was basically telling you what he "The HC" wanted. Now that doesn't always mean that we have to agree with it, but sometimes as an assistant you need to figure out when the HC is telling you something and when he is asking for your feedback. When he tells you something you have to say yes sir and do it to the best of your ability and move on. Again I think it comes down to the relationship too, I have been on staffs were the HC was one of my best friends, and we could have debates about anything and everything, BUT even then it came down to what HE the HC wanted to do.
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Post by craines10 on Apr 18, 2017 11:13:16 GMT -6
I thought THAT specific situation was stupid. I know he has final say..when he asks for my thoughts I give them...but the final say is his..always has always will...but there are instances where there is a discussion involving the gameplan that is back and forth....and it seems like that is his closing statement because he has no rebuttal..I guess that is what gets to me..if you start the "debate" you cant end it with that closing statement. All that being said though when it is over its over, and nothing leaves the meeting room EVER I may be missing something here, cause I don't see where the HC was looking to debate...His statement was he wanted a particular player at a particular position. Didn't see where he asked what your thoughts on moving the kid. He was basically telling you what he "The HC" wanted. Now that doesn't always mean that we have to agree with it, but sometimes as an assistant you need to figure out when the HC is telling you something and when he is asking for your feedback. When he tells you something you have to say yes sir and do it to the best of your ability and move on. Again I think it comes down to the relationship too, I have been on staffs were the HC was one of my best friends, and we could have debates about anything and everything, BUT even then it came down to what HE the HC wanted to do. I see that also. In my mind at that moment...no injury..no production issue...just a random request...was odd. The entire conversation never happens if I just said "Ok"...but hindsight is 20/20...as someone pointed out above...I also could have said "Who do you want at RG" and the entire conversation wouldnt have happened..but the conversation happened because I was thinking about the offense...and how the one move could affect everything else. Maybe I was wrong..maybe I wasnt..but dont get me wrong this wasnt a shouting match and nobody lost any sleep over it...just me wanting to know why we would switch our RG to FB in the goalline package...and it still came down to what HE wanted because that week in practice I did what he asked because that is what I am supposed to do.
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Post by blb on Apr 18, 2017 15:18:01 GMT -6
What would you do, if you were the head coach, and an assistant such as you brought up a similar issue to him?
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Post by funkfriss on Apr 19, 2017 9:36:27 GMT -6
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jbutch17
Freshmen Member
[F4:@JButch17]
Posts: 95
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Post by jbutch17 on Apr 19, 2017 9:58:09 GMT -6
The opinion of HC's ship & all have to blindly follow is a bit archaic and probably outdated. The notion of "works for me" or some position coach is hard for me to understand, but not many HS programs are autonomous enough to clear out space especially as teaching opportunities are limited. That is/was from the days coaches routinely being somewhere 10-20+ years and the staffs remained largely in tact for a majority if not all of the time. Now and every year seems to be less, the win or else that dominates the pros and major college ranks has trickled down. The professional world has become more transient, quick, throw away, etc and education and coaching aren't exempt from this. Hire ambitious people that are good people and/or very knowledgeable coaches and win. They'll move on or you will. In an ideal situation, collaboration would rule the hierarchy from the top down and if it would help my team win, I don't care if the tuba player suggested it, we'd incorporate it in.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 19, 2017 10:13:29 GMT -6
I've known a lot of guys who claim they don't want "yes men", but instantly go on the defensive anytime someone challenges them with a different idea. I think issues arise when A) HCs rely on their authority to be trump card (I'm right because I am the HC) and B) when assistants don't accept that being the HC is the trump card. Starting with point A, if you are a HC and you are claiming to be open to advice or challenge, then you better be able to defend your opinion empirically with logic. If you have to just talk over the AC or hold authority over him as the key to winning the debate then why even ask for advice. Conversely, for point B- if you can't accept that the HC will justify some decisions based solely on his position then don't coach for him. This is why I prefer to work for HCs who say from the start, "I appreciate your knowledge, but we are gonna do it this way." Maybe because thats how I always do it too. Thats my problem...I can deal with the fact that HC has final word...what I dont like is when he tries to engage in debate and starts to lose...then goes..."Bottom line...we essentially gonna do it this way because this my ship and my name is behind them wins and losses" Then I wouldn't engage in the debate. If he asks an opinion, provide it. If he disagrees with it just be the "Yes Man" and move on. For example, I coached under a HC/DC that was friggin terrible. He and I had sparred over how the LBs were supposed to be playing all year as he'd blame the DL anytime we got killed on a play. So, I got tired of it and just shut up. We were getting gashed on various kinds of sweeps because the force players weren't hitting the POA. They were all over the friggin place.. Either they were taking poor angles or just standing there..The DEs were stretching the reach blocks to the edge but the LBs didn't get to there. In fact, the DEs used to force the ball back inside well but the LBs would be standing there.. "What can we do to stop getting killed by these sweeps??" "Sam and Will (his position) need to get to the edge quicker, find the lead blocker and turn the play back inside. Maybe some outside run work would do." "No, the DEs (my position..) aren't containing well enough! They need to be making those plays!" "Alright coach." So, we kept on getting killed by sweeps during the year, I kept repping containment with the DEs and let it all go. It was obvious that the DEs were doing their job on film but arguing with the guy wasn't going to do me any good. I quit the next year and went elsewhere. A buddy of mine was still coaching in the program and said that things got worse and worse.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 19, 2017 10:25:39 GMT -6
The opinion of HC's ship & all have to blindly follow is a bit archaic and probably outdated. The notion of "works for me" or some position coach is hard for me to understand, but not many HS programs are autonomous enough to clear out space especially as teaching opportunities are limited. That is/was from the days coaches routinely being somewhere 10-20+ years and the staffs remained largely in tact for a majority if not all of the time. Now and every year seems to be less, the win or else that dominates the pros and major college ranks has trickled down. The professional world has become more transient, quick, throw away, etc and education and coaching aren't exempt from this. Hire ambitious people that are good people and/or very knowledgeable coaches and win. They'll move on or you will. In an ideal situation, collaboration would rule the hierarchy from the top down and if it would help my team win, I don't care if the tuba player suggested it, we'd incorporate it in. Curious about your age. I am guessing < 30 I have to disagree with your first statement. How else would a program, or most any organization that needs to constantly make decisions operate? I think you are confusing two issues : 1) The head coach is in charge and what he says goes 2) The HC is infallible and clearly the most intelligent and "best" coach on the staff and therefore should make all decisions without regard to anyone else's opinions or experiences. The 2nd point above is simply bad coaching, not an archaic or outdated opinion. It has never been good coaching. The first point is just the reality of any hierarchy based organization. Someone HAS to be the final decision maker.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 19, 2017 10:29:36 GMT -6
Then I wouldn't engage in the debate. If he asks an opinion, provide it. If he disagrees with it just be the "Yes Man" and move on. For example, I coached under a HC/DC that was friggin terrible. He and I had sparred over how the LBs were supposed to be playing all year as he'd blame the DL anytime we got killed on a play. So, I got tired of it and just shut up. We were getting gashed on various kinds of sweeps because the force players weren't hitting the POA. They were all over the friggin place.. Either they were taking poor angles or just standing there..The DEs were stretching the reach blocks to the edge but the LBs didn't get to there. In fact, the DEs used to force the ball back inside well but the LBs would be standing there.. "What can we do to stop getting killed by these sweeps??" "Sam and Will (his position) need to get to the edge quicker, find the lead blocker and turn the play back inside. Maybe some outside run work would do." "No, the DEs (my position..) aren't containing well enough! They need to be making those plays!" "Alright coach." So, we kept on getting killed by sweeps during the year, I kept repping containment with the DEs and let it all go. It was obvious that the DEs were doing their job on film but arguing with the guy wasn't going to do me any good. I quit the next year and went elsewhere. A buddy of mine was still coaching in the program and said that things got worse and worse. This is pretty much spot on. I guess the only difference I might have is based on my situation, I might not wait for the year to end, but rather publicly defend the players he is incorrectly blaming, point out his mistake publicly and tendering my resignation on the spot. Or, depending on my blood pressure, do the more prudent thing and have that conversation in private, tell him he doesn't know what the F he is talking about, tell him to get off those kids behinds, and ask him if he wants me to stay around or not.
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jbutch17
Freshmen Member
[F4:@JButch17]
Posts: 95
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Post by jbutch17 on Apr 19, 2017 10:51:42 GMT -6
The opinion of HC's ship & all have to blindly follow is a bit archaic and probably outdated. The notion of "works for me" or some position coach is hard for me to understand, but not many HS programs are autonomous enough to clear out space especially as teaching opportunities are limited. That is/was from the days coaches routinely being somewhere 10-20+ years and the staffs remained largely in tact for a majority if not all of the time. Now and every year seems to be less, the win or else that dominates the pros and major college ranks has trickled down. The professional world has become more transient, quick, throw away, etc and education and coaching aren't exempt from this. Hire ambitious people that are good people and/or very knowledgeable coaches and win. They'll move on or you will. In an ideal situation, collaboration would rule the hierarchy from the top down and if it would help my team win, I don't care if the tuba player suggested it, we'd incorporate it in. Curious about your age. I am guessing < 30 I have to disagree with your first statement. How else would a program, or most any organization that needs to constantly make decisions operate? I think you are confusing two issues : 1) The head coach is in charge and what he says goes 2) The HC is infallible and clearly the most intelligent and "best" coach on the staff and therefore should make all decisions without regard to anyone else's opinions or experiences. The 2nd point above is simply bad coaching, not an archaic or outdated opinion. It has never been good coaching. The first point is just the reality of any hierarchy based organization. Someone HAS to be the final decision maker. Over 30 by a few years. It's been the tone of everything prior to this that I've read on this thread the HC is a hybrid of the 2. Of course he makes final decisions & of course he handles administrative duties, but the leadership component doesn't have to be inherently standoffish. It almost seems as if the easier path, guys that just nod yes in agreement would be preferable to the usually more effective approach, a smart group of guys who challenge one another to be better. The hardest and almost impossible thing to do in the world is positionally eliminate contributions while asking for blind loyalty, and that's not reserved for coaching, that's in anything. Again if it meant greater success or increased productivity and "what the HC says, goes", as the HC I would just change what I said... in all things football scheme and personnel wise
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Post by coachcb on Apr 19, 2017 10:53:41 GMT -6
For example, I coached under a HC/DC that was friggin terrible. He and I had sparred over how the LBs were supposed to be playing all year as he'd blame the DL anytime we got killed on a play. So, I got tired of it and just shut up. We were getting gashed on various kinds of sweeps because the force players weren't hitting the POA. They were all over the friggin place.. Either they were taking poor angles or just standing there..The DEs were stretching the reach blocks to the edge but the LBs didn't get to there. In fact, the DEs used to force the ball back inside well but the LBs would be standing there.. "What can we do to stop getting killed by these sweeps??" "Sam and Will (his position) need to get to the edge quicker, find the lead blocker and turn the play back inside. Maybe some outside run work would do." "No, the DEs (my position..) aren't containing well enough! They need to be making those plays!" "Alright coach." So, we kept on getting killed by sweeps during the year, I kept repping containment with the DEs and let it all go. It was obvious that the DEs were doing their job on film but arguing with the guy wasn't going to do me any good. I quit the next year and went elsewhere. A buddy of mine was still coaching in the program and said that things got worse and worse. This is pretty much spot on. I guess the only difference I might have is based on my situation, I might not wait for the year to end, but rather publicly defend the players he is incorrectly blaming, point out his mistake publicly and tendering my resignation on the spot. Or, depending on my blood pressure, do the more prudent thing and have that conversation in private, tell him he doesn't know what the F he is talking about, tell him to get off those kids behinds, and ask him if he wants me to stay around or not. We had several battles in the coaching office before all of this went down. To back up what you said, I was tired of the DL doing their job and having him blame them for the LB screw-ups. At one point, I even told him to take the DL if he was that concerned about it. He did for two days, realized he didn't have a clue what he was doing and handed it back over to me. BUT, the crap continued. It was pretty demoralizing for the kids on defense as well because they could see he was an idiot, especially after he took the DL and tried to "make them tougher" by doing Bull In The Ring and Oklahoma drills. No one on staff was happy when he was hired. He was a former FCS level RB that was a local Golden Boy and got picked up for a social studies/HC gig right out of college. The administration were a bunch of morons too. The entire staff quit after two years and he ended up fired in after three. He only lasted three years because the OC new his stuff and the offense scored enough points to keep us winning. He quit after that second year, the offense and defense were terrible and the program took a nose dive.
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