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Post by tothehouse on Mar 1, 2017 10:49:59 GMT -6
lenwood...that is the tough part about our currently dynamic. Our school had 2850 kids in it in the year 2000. We currently have 1490. AND...our classification hasn't changed. So...we're playing schools with 2500 kids, etc.
Combine low numbers...in general...then getting the tar beat out of you for the last 5+ years and the "sell" is difficult.
With that being said...I'm 100% with you on what you're saying. Our dynamic is something I have never seen or heard of...and I've been around for a bit. For 25 years in a row we average 10+ football wins a year. We've won 6 games in the last 4 years. It's a weird situation where we are looking for help from all the available athletes. In a word...I'm desperate. From being a part of winning all the time to getting your balls kicked in...hasn't been the most enjoyable experience. I'm selfish that I want this kids to play...because I know they'd help us get out of this situation.
With all that being said...we still have to sell the program...especially it's history.
The good thing is...we were VERY competitive on the varsity last year...and...I just did a preliminary defensive depth chart...and we're returning 11, YES 11!, STARTERS. Maybe we're coming out of it.
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Post by coachcb on Mar 1, 2017 11:05:15 GMT -6
Sometimes getting numbers out means lowering standards for a bit (I hated typing that, BTW). I would just focus on getting the kids out in the fall without pressing the weight room or off-season workouts. Get them out, get them interested in football again and start rebuilding tradition. Make sure your freshman and JV staff are getting all of the kids that are practicing playing time so that they enjoy the game. Basically, kick start the tradition again.
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Post by tothehouse on Mar 1, 2017 11:15:56 GMT -6
CB...I'm with you. Using some of your guys stuff...but I have an angle that might grab a couple guys.
1. We have a freshman, 6'3" 170...played varsity basketball. Didn't play football for various reasons...including psycho mom...that doesn't live around here anymore. Anyway...his dad played D1 football. I'm going to use this kid "against" his friends with a line like..."What would frosh basketball looked like if Justin was on your team?" and then finish with... "in football...Justin will be on your team next year. And Justin could be a man child. Play with Justin now...because you're not going to get to play with him until you're a junior". That'll be for the frosh basketball kids.
2. We had 2 sophomores play up on the varsity basketball team as well. I'll be using similar technique to make my point.
It's a fine line.
The other lines will be the lifting part will help you in everything...since you're current sport isn't lifting.
Come out whenever you want...just come out. But understand...I'm not going to be asking much more...if at all. I have a spring and summer calendar in my possession.
Give it a shot. And then probably use the "you miss 100% of the shots you don't take" kinda line. See what it's all about. If you don't like it...cool. Get back in your comfort zone.
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Post by rudyrude9 on Mar 1, 2017 12:14:02 GMT -6
3rdandlong...we've gone around and around with that as well. I think...a lot of freshman will play on the JV...they are going to have to. I think our incoming class will be around 30...mix them with the 16 JV players...and we'll have a good number. This seems to be your issue. Keep your 30 together and start 22 of them. You will retain a higher percentage doing it that way. By moving 16 up I would bet you discourage the 16 left behind to give up on football. Take your crappy JRs/SRs to help supliment your JV depth. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 1, 2017 12:26:08 GMT -6
3rdandlong...we've gone around and around with that as well. I think...a lot of freshman will play on the JV...they are going to have to. I think our incoming class will be around 30...mix them with the 16 JV players...and we'll have a good number. This seems to be your issue. Keep your 30 together and start 22 of them. You will retain a higher percentage doing it that way. By moving 16 up I would bet you discourage the 16 left behind to give up on football. Take your crappy JRs/SRs to help supliment your JV depth. I think you misread his numbers. 30 Frosh. 16 JV. They aren't moving up 16 Frosh and leaving 16 behind. Also, just be aware that football programs are structured differently across the country. Be wary of making projecting how your program is set up onto others. You mention taking the "crappy jrs/srs to help supplement the JV depth". Those 16 that he mentions might indeed be the crappy Jrs (and maybe Srs). Or maybe there are rules in place that restricts Upperclassmen on JV. That said, I don't disagree with your main idea, and the idea that moving up the 30 frosh and combining them with 16 JV players will invariably result in less playing time/attention spent on some % of those 30 freshmen. |
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Post by tothehouse on Mar 1, 2017 12:28:21 GMT -6
rudy rudy rudy...good ideas...but...
a couple things.
1. Our incoming freshman had good success as a group in Pop Warner. I know they'd help at the JV level. I think most...if not all of them will be able to play...like play on the field.
2. In CA we can't move Jrs. down to JV. That would really help us in our current situation.
3. Our going to be seniors are STUDS. Every one of them. We will play 19 different seniors this year. They are a group like the "old school" days...when we'd get class after class after class that were studly. Part of this issue is not having enough "dudes". I haven't mentioned that most of our sports aren't that good anymore...so playing one sport isn't exactly making their team better.
Lastly...I think I have another angle that I just thought our. Our field turf is 10 years old. It is getting REPLACED this summer...due to a bond measure that passed. I am going to totally use the..."you guys get to play on new turf" angle.
Keep up the good stuff. Appreciate it guys.
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Post by coachcb on Mar 1, 2017 12:53:34 GMT -6
CB...I'm with you. Using some of your guys stuff...but I have an angle that might grab a couple guys. 1. We have a freshman, 6'3" 170...played varsity basketball. Didn't play football for various reasons...including psycho mom...that doesn't live around here anymore. Anyway...his dad played D1 football. I'm going to use this kid "against" his friends with a line like..."What would frosh basketball looked like if Justin was on your team?" and then finish with... "in football...Justin will be on your team next year. And Justin could be a man child. Play with Justin now...because you're not going to get to play with him until you're a junior". That'll be for the frosh basketball kids. 2. We had 2 sophomores play up on the varsity basketball team as well. I'll be using similar technique to make my point. It's a fine line. The other lines will be the lifting part will help you in everything...since you're current sport isn't lifting. Come out whenever you want...just come out. But understand...I'm not going to be asking much more...if at all. I have a spring and summer calendar in my possession. Give it a shot. And then probably use the "you miss 100% of the shots you don't take" kinda line. See what it's all about. If you don't like it...cool. Get back in your comfort zone. Yeah, that's a good way to approach it. I have been trying to recruit kids around here to play football but haven't been talking about lifting. I point out the basketball teams in our conference that we lose to: the kids on those teams all play football and are better athletes for it. I brought that up after our basketball team got knocked out of the district tournament: "We lost to teams that were more physical and more athletic than we are. They spent their fall becoming mentally tougher by playing football. It's something you guys need to consider." They couldn't really argue with it as they got slammed around in the posts by guys who were just more aggressive than they were. And, they learned that aggressiveness through football. |
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Post by tothehouse on Mar 1, 2017 12:57:22 GMT -6
One of the coaches of one of the best programs in Northern CA told me a few years ago their school's basketball team went to state because the "bigs" on the basketball team were all football players. He says, "they are .500 if they don't have the football guys".
I just wish other coaches would see the value in what they'd get from their teams if they lifted. And not just lift...LIFT HARD...with a purpose. It would help all of us in our current situation.
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Post by td4tc on Mar 1, 2017 14:01:56 GMT -6
One of the coaches of one of the best programs in Northern CA told me a few years ago their school's basketball team went to state because the "bigs" on the basketball team were all football players. He says, "they are .500 if they don't have the football guys". I just wish other coaches would see the value in what they'd get from their teams if they lifted. And not just lift...LIFT HARD...with a purpose. It would help all of us in our current situation. Agree totally on the "make a better bball player out of ya when you play football". Have seen it happen numerous times including myself back in the day. Will increase his offensive rebounds big time. Those 50/50 balls in bball go to the football guys. My main recruiting tool for the hallways is to tell them they could earn a spot on our KR team (Nevada) and score a TD about every third return with tothehouse's amazing double reverse return. LOL. Our best guys are the disgruntled hockey kids that finally realize their parents dream of making it to the NHL isn't there. Make great defenders. Disciplined. Like to hit. Get one leader and you'll get three more that follow. That's key. Read a stat about Urban since he has been at OHIO state that well over 80% of his recruits are multi-sport athletes |
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Post by jlenwood on Mar 1, 2017 14:58:12 GMT -6
This is my simple macro answer to the decreased interest in football with high school kids. 99% of them will never play college ball so why not make their high school experience like a big time college program.
Some suggestions:
-Top notch swag and gear
-Off season team events for players AND family
-Treat your guys who have played all 4 years like rock stars
-Have special recognition in the form of camping trips or rafting or whatever, for seniors who have played more than 2 years (alleviates the guys coming out just for their sr year)
And there is a ton of other creative ways you could get kids interested, but the bottom line is for all of us as coaches to make sure that kids, and the entire K-12 staff know, that your football program is going to offer you the player the best 4 years of your life. If you can get that done, I honestly think that does away with the crutch of "we have to win" to get kids to play that alot of coaches lean on.
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Post by tothehouse on Mar 1, 2017 15:50:01 GMT -6
Good stuff coaches.
I met with these guys today. I didn't want to go into salesman mode...but I ended up doing that.
I HAD THEM PUMPED about playing. Now...will it end up happening? I don't know...but they were stoked. I used the "we're getting new turf" and they got "lit" (I think I used that right).
I told them that I'm a tough SOB...but we're going to have so much fun...because they are out there battling with their buddies, etc.
I know I have one kid for sure. The others...still questionable.
It was a great talk. I need to do that more often. One kid...stayed around after the meeting and said..."Coach. Thank you for talking to me. I appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time. Hearing you talk about football like that makes me want to play".
I'm like WHOA!!! That was awesome.
Just having them in the room though? Made me think of how awesome the team could be...if they all played. And I told them that.
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Post by silkyice on Mar 1, 2017 16:05:27 GMT -6
Good stuff coaches. I met with these guys today. I didn't want to go into salesman mode...but I ended up doing that. I HAD THEM PUMPED about playing. Now...will it end up happening? I don't know...but they were stoked. I used the "we're getting new turf" and they got "lit" (I think I used that right). I told them that I'm a tough SOB...but we're going to have so much fun...because they are out there battling with their buddies, etc. I know I have one kid for sure. The others...still questionable. It was a great talk. I need to do that more often. One kid...stayed around after the meeting and said..."Coach. Thank you for talking to me. I appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time. Hearing you talk about football like that makes me want to play". I'm like WHOA!!! That was awesome. Just having them in the room though? Made me think of how awesome the team could be...if they all played. And I told them that. That is awesome Coach! |
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Post by fballcoachg on Mar 1, 2017 19:51:25 GMT -6
For various reasons our school is in a predicament. We're at the point where 15 years ago we had over 100 kids come out for freshman football...to now. We are precariously close to cancelling the frosh season because our JV numbers are so low. We'd move the frosh up with the low JV numbers. This post is about recruiting your own campus. My youngest son is a freshman. He could be one of the top JV players next year. I had him give me a list of players that should be playing football for us. I have the list and I'm calling most of them into my class tomorrow at various times. What are some keys to convincing the one sport...I'm really good at my one sport...playing athletes. And when I mean good...I mean...they think they are good...but they are pretty average. I will run into... 1. they don't like lifting and the other coaches on campus aren't making them lift...so...I'm SOL. 2. my parents say I can't play. 3. ? The 10 guys I am talking with make us an above .500 team if we had them all. If not...we're about 4-6 to 3-7. And my problem...I'm not a beggar. I'm not going to spend a lot of time trying to convince a kid to love football...when they have never played before and have no desire to play. Any help appreciated. I would look internally...why don't they like lifting with you? Why aren't they seeing results from the program and why don't they want to be a part of it, very few people don't want muscles. I know there is a contingent out there that doesn't like it but we try to make our weight room loud, fast, and fun. We blare music, talk to kids, give t shirts, have competitions, and work hard and our kids have really bought in so far. Our numbers have actually gone up and those that aren't with us have never once mentioned the weight room. gotta make it worthwhile |
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Post by s73 on Mar 1, 2017 22:03:38 GMT -6
Sometimes getting numbers out means lowering standards for a bit (I hated typing that, BTW). I would just focus on getting the kids out in the fall without pressing the weight room or off-season workouts. Get them out, get them interested in football again and start rebuilding tradition. Make sure your freshman and JV staff are getting all of the kids that are practicing playing time so that they enjoy the game. Basically, kick start the tradition again. THIS^^^^ I get so tired of hearing guys talk about upholding standards and blah blah. Kids have to learn standards and for some reason our sport is filled w/ coaches who treat FB as if it's the holiest of holies that cannot be "desecrated" with compromise. When a kid takes a subject in school for the first time we don't start him with the toughest content area, we start at square one & work our way up. Why should FB be any different? I took my 1st HC job at a school just like the one the OP is at. 500 kids, average enrollment of our opponents was about 1400 and some as big as 2,000. They hadn't won a game in years. By the 3rd year we fell 1 game shy of a play off berth, the next year we made play offs and fell 7 points short of upsetting the eventual back to back state champs, the following year we fell 1 game short of making the play offs again. We won 15 games over a 3 season span when they had not won 15 games in previous 12 seasons combined. My record was not earth shattering but we gained a TON of respect from our opponents. What did we do? No 2 a-days (never been a believer in them anyway) Minimal conditioning (hard organized fast paced practice is our conditioning) DID NOT use all of our summer contact days (kid friendly schedule that allowed them to play FB and other sports & be kids) Used commonsense approach to absenteeism (people get sick, they don't need to sit b/c they missed a day due to illness) No Saturday practices Developed a short concise playbook and focused on execution so practices could be efficient rather than long and drawn out I realize this approach is not for everyone, but when you don't have lots of numbers I don't believe you need to condition a lot b/c kids get little rest anyway (drill lines are short, they play 1st team and scout team constantly, etc.). and, they need Saturdays off IMO b/c so many of them play so many snaps every week. My 2nd & current HF job is at a slightly larger school but still not an easy job and this philosophy has served me well. I work at a school where we've had 3 play off berths and been in the hunt 5 of the last 7 seasons, meanwhile the rest of all our sports combined has had 1 winning season period (newer, smaller school in the area). I believe a common sense kid friendly approach is the way to go. High school kids need to DEVELOP a work ethic. They need to LEARN commitment. That takes time and baby steps & I believe you are not compromising your values doing this, you are simply meeting them "where they are" and teaching them to slowly reach a little higher. JMO. |
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Post by CS on Mar 2, 2017 5:16:28 GMT -6
I will admit that I didn't read all the comments so excuse me if this has already been said but it the parents not the kids who are choosing for them.
This is my first rodeo in a more *cough* white *cough* school and its pretty bad in all sports here. I teach 8th graders and get to know a lot of them and ask them stuff about just playing one sport and most give me answers I know are coming from there parents.
Its pretty hard to overcome what's going on at home. So if you are in that situation you may think about talking to the parents instead.
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Post by s73 on Mar 2, 2017 7:23:04 GMT -6
I will admit that I didn't read all the comments so excuse me if this has already been said but it the parents not the kids who are choosing for them. This is my first rodeo in a more *cough* white *cough* school and its pretty bad in all sports here. I teach 8th graders and get to know a lot of them and ask them stuff about just playing one sport and most give me answers I know are coming from there parents. Its pretty hard to overcome what's going on at home. So if you are in that situation you may think about talking to the parents instead. AGREED! One of my best FB players last season almost hung it up on us last season about July or so b/c he got hurt in BB over the summer and he was concerned about his "future". I know this idea was implanted by mom b/c mom thinks he's a scholarship BB kid (which he is not). I called him out on it pretty hard. He ended up playing & making all conference and now seems pretty dedicated to us. With that said, one of the better things we did was bring in a recruiting expert speaker and had him tailor his speech to the importance of the multi sport athlete and emphasizing giving yourself options by playing 2 or more sports. It was a student/parent meeting. Was not highly attended but I do think it opened some eyes of some of the parents present. |
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Post by coachcb on Mar 2, 2017 9:33:17 GMT -6
s73I think that there is a fine line when it comes to pushing off-season participation. Push the kids to participate in other sports, open up the weight room, find ways to reward the kids that lift and/or participate in other sports and go from there. I have seen programs hit a tipping point where they had a strong tradition of winning and you had to lift and go to summer camps in order to play for this team (unspoken policy). The kids got burned out and the programs began to struggle. I used to be very opinionated when it came to off-season participation: you wanna play, you better lift, play other sports, and go to camps in the summer. But, I stopped with that approach as I realized that I can only control what happens during the season. We can reward the kids that lift in various ways, try to create an environment where the kids want to lift and go from there.
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Post by joelee on Mar 2, 2017 10:14:21 GMT -6
I can tell you one thing I have noticed. Football is hard and our program is hard, but as I look around at some kids in our program I don't think they are here for the football. I think they are here to be a part of something.
A. Some of them have a majority of their friends on the team and they get extra time with them.
B. Some of them like us coaches genuinely and
C. Some of them like being around the 11 (positive, high achieving) men on our staff because they don't have a male at home or in their life.
I bet 2/5 of our roster is here for those reasons and not the football and some of them are not even aware of it. As I look back on my playing days I realize that all of that was a part of why I played this tough game.
I'd sell that.
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Post by tothehouse on Mar 2, 2017 11:00:18 GMT -6
The "football is hard" thing.
What makes it different for kids now...than when we played? You're right it's {censored} hard.
Lower numbers has to be partly put on parents bubble wrapping their kids. I get there are other options and stuff, but the "baseball only" kid can get dotted in the helmet with a pitch and get a concussion. Yet they aren't making movies about that.
I'm worried that this is becoming the norm. Hard things aren't tried because they are hard. Difficult things are avoided. And that scares me.
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Post by paydirt18 on Mar 2, 2017 11:19:19 GMT -6
I think as coaches we really are missing the boat on the "low numbers" situation that is gaining traction at so many schools. This BS about kids not wanting to do things that are hard is crap in my opinion, the real issue is how is that you as a coach have not presented your program in such a light as to make the non-playing kid think "Man, I got to be a part of that". Absolutely spot on. I took over a program here that was in the middle of the state's active longest losing streak - in fact I added 9 games to it. The first day of my first practice I had 8 kids! Despite going 0-9 that year we finished with 34 kids. Then going into year two we had 51 kids - allowed me to create a "varsity-reserve" schedule- which led me to adding 8 more kids the following year. Now going into year 4 we for sure of know that over 50 underclassmen our coming out and we are factoring in an additional incoming frosh total of 20-25. How does this happen? My whole selling point was simple: basically I said that there was no guarantees about winning games, but I can guarantee you will be a better person for joining. I said (and still say) that football is a Utopian society meaning that if you are willing to work hard, good things will happen to you. Our kids come from some very traumatic environments so I think they were really attracted to this selling point because of what happens in their daily lives. Once you come out to that practice field life is perfect for a few hours....it's fair. Don't work hard, you get your a## kicked. Work hard, you get another down, etc. The really bought into that. Now at the end of the day, this is not a championship material type of program....yet. But kids have bought in and it's been great. |
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Post by runitupthemiddle on Mar 2, 2017 13:59:17 GMT -6
I get that 5085. I also think that the toughness instilled in them by demanding in the weight room etc. isn't happening in other sports on our campus. I think if there was a full circle demanding of that...kids might give football a try...because they are athletic. I think they have a fear of the unknown...like...what to do in the weight room. Football offers a kid who have never played before a lot of different opportunities to show off the skill they have. I'm not calling these kids soft...because I don't know what they are. That's why this is tough...because it's like an onion when it comes to having them try. Lots of layers. I tell my own kids that what I'd like to see from them leaving the school is that you tried things and went really hard and don't have regrets when it's over. I think there will be a lot of regret that some of these kid will have...because they weren't pushed very hard. Not there fault...I just wish they'd extend themselves a bit more. Whether they SHOULD or not...they don't know if they COULD. Any way...I'm ramblin. Keep the good stuff coming. Helps me formulate my plan. I totally get what both you and 5085 are saying. We practice 5 days a week during summer for 3 hours a day in afternoon heat that is tickling 100 degrees for a large part of the summer. On top of that, we're on a turf field so add another 20+ degrees. Other than the CIF mandated 3 week break they don't get any time off. Kids tell me they just don't want to sweat their balls off "wasting their summer" to play 10 games for a HC they "think is a prig". They think the reward is not worth it. They can join the basketball team and practice indoors 3 days a week and play in multiple tournaments all summer or they can join baseball, have morning workouts 3 days a week and play in multiple tournaments all summer - and then be even better for those sports when regular season rolls around. As a kid I loved football but I'm not sure I could have argued with that logic. We have a ton of kids that "should" be playing but they just don't want to. It's a different world. I anxiously await you more experienced guys to enlighten this stooge. Is that lifting , speed training and a little football? 3 hours is a lot for summer, 5 days a week And I'm from the Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas area where football is king ding-a-ling |
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