center
Junior Member
Posts: 484
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Post by center on Feb 16, 2017 8:24:55 GMT -6
I think you can put blame on the players more with off the field stuff than on the field. Any kid that wants to be a part of a team has some academic and behavior standards that they need to meet.
If they have made the choice to get in trouble or let their academics slip to the point they are ineligible they are letting the team down. That is on them.
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Post by spos21ram on Feb 16, 2017 8:34:29 GMT -6
I have a question....what are you doing critizing other coaches to your principal? Or did he come to you about it? Either way I don't really like it.
But yes, never publicly blame the kids, I would never just come out and tell them it was their fault even if no one was around.
If you're the AD then my bad.
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Post by silkyice on Feb 16, 2017 8:45:41 GMT -6
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Post by Coach Vint on Feb 16, 2017 9:15:26 GMT -6
Great picture by silkyice. If you criticize your players publicly they will not play hard. It is like anything else. How would you react if your boss publicly blamed you for something? I am not going to second guess anyone on this board or another coach. I don't have to feed my family based on your decisions. But I don't think publicly blaming a player does anyone any good. A good friend who has been very successful struggled this year as the HFC/AD at a perennial power. It was his first year and they were used to winning. He took over a very young team with little talent and a tough schedule. He made the mistake of blaming the kids. They stopped playing hard for him week 5. He ended up getting reassigned before the last game. That entire situation was less than ideal for him, but had he not blamed the kids things may have been different. One of my coaching mentors who just retired after 25 years as a head coach and spent the last 12 at one school had great advice. He did not have the most talent, but he always had successful teams. He said the key is to always instill confidence publicly in your players and your staff. Use the words We, us, and ours with your team and in public. "We are working hard to get better." "We have a great group of kids and coaches, and we will continue to get better." He said you never talk about what you can't do. You focus on what you can do and will do. If you give the kids a program they want to be a part of and you build strong relationships, you will have success. You might not win it all, but you will make it harder for them to fire you if things don't go well. But publicly blaming players is not going to get you very far. If you are going to do that you better have a brother-in-law on the school board. I do take it personal when guys don't perform. It may very well be that we aren't very good, but if that is our mindset then we will coach them to be mediocre. We coach them all to be great. The only losing seasons I have been a part of were full of excuses. We could have won more games, but everyone wanted to make excuses of why we couldn't win. It was miserable to be a part of. We will not make excuses.
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CoachSP
Sophomore Member
Posts: 212
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Post by CoachSP on Feb 16, 2017 9:26:03 GMT -6
How I see it:
If we are in a staff meeting (coaches only) and the head coach looks at me and says, "Coach, why did (Player) not do _________?"
If in that situation, I KNOW I coached him up all week, and I KNOW that he did it correctly all week, then yes, I will explain to my coach that that player made the mistake.
This scenario is rare, I'm sure. However, it does happen.
BUT,
There is no reason to ask a player to do something that he could not prove he could do in practice. If he performed poorly in practice, then that will carry over.
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Post by 3rdandlong on Feb 16, 2017 9:26:13 GMT -6
I hate being quoted in the newspaper after a game because very seldom are my quotes well thought out. I once said "players play and coaches coach. Neither did a very good job tonight." I caught a lot of heat for that one.
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Post by 3rdandlong on Feb 16, 2017 9:38:50 GMT -6
My belief is that winning and losing isn't always a product of our preparation, coaches and players alike. We always will look at ourselves in the mirror and should always answer to ourselves. We should know if we did a good job coaching or not, regardless of the outcome. I know some of my best games coaching resulted in losses and some of my worst games coaching resulted in wins. At the same time, there have been times where I was really disappointed with our players after a win and really proud of them after a loss. The only thing the outsiders see are the wins and losses.
It kind of reminds me of the time Jim Mora Sr. critiqued the media. He said- and I paraphrase- that sometimes things happen that outsiders think are bad, but they're actually pretty good. And sometimes things happen that outsiders think are good, but are actually pretty bad. The players and coaches in the locker room are the only real ones that know.
Now I do know this, if you're willing to take blame, a couple of things can happen. There are some players who will use you as a cop out for their own accountability. They'll say things like: "You see even coach admitted it was his fault. I didn't do anything wrong." And there are other players who will see you as falling on the sword for them and will play that much harder for you. It all depends on the character of the kid.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 16, 2017 9:47:43 GMT -6
Is it the coach's fault when he has have spent 10-15 minutes every day running block down/step down drills with the kids, emphasize it during inside run and then watched them do it well during team time? Is the RB coach to blame when the RBs cough the ball up five times in a game after he goes through ball security drills each and every day, impresses the importance of it on the kids all day long and the ball doesn't hit the ground all week? As I stated earlier, we never openly blame the kids for a loss. But, that doesn't mean I won't call out those DTs for not squeezing when they have gotten turns at it or those RBs for turning the ball over when they've been coached up. We'll go back to the drawing board and continue to rep it at practice. BUT, the kids have to make it happen. We can't do it for them. If a coach spent 10-15 trying to teach something to a player, and the player is capable of executing it, but the player does not do it. Then I would definitely say there is significant fault resting with the coach. Just because he spent time working on something doesnt mean he coached it well. Maybe he needs to change how he is coaching. Time spent does not always equal good coaching. And I would never expect you not to call out your DT for not squeezing, you do need to keep him accountable and calling him out would help do so. However, just putting more time and continually repping in practice may not be the answer (we all know the definition of insanity). If he is consistently not executing what you believe you have coached him to do then it is your responsibility to coach him differently/better. Look at my second statement with regards to the the DT. You're seeing him executing it during inside run and team time. And, you've got the rest of the DL doing the same. You're running quality drills, teaching him the proper technique and yet he still screws it up during a game? At that point, I have done everything I can as a coach to get him to perform but he's not doing it. So, he either needs to get it done or we'll find someone who will. We already break the technique down into it's smallest parts. We've run drills that teach him the proper footwork and hand placement. We've run drills that teach them to step down with that block. Then we run drills that teach him to step down, find the puller and take him on. And, seeing as we're a Wing-T team, he's getting hit with it every single day during team time and inside run. Our DL probably get 50+ reps each day at spilling kick-out blocks. Yet he's still getting trapped constantly in games. So, how can we coach him "better"? This isn't a hypothetical situation for me. Before I took over my first HC gig, I was lucky enough to coach under two HOF coaches and learned from veterans. And, I study the game thoroughly and not just Xs and Os. I want to know specific skills, drills, cue words, etc..etc.. Do I consider myself a HOF coach? No, I do not. But, I work hard to make sure the kids get the best possible coaching and I'm fascinated by sports psychology. I take my first HC gig in a program with serious struggles and applied what I learned/was still learning to our kids. We are fundamentally sound when we're up big. Our fundamentals and effort go to sh-t when we're losing, in a tight game or playing a tough team. The staff and I aren't screaming, yelling or berating the kids in these difficult games; we're keeping ourselves under control. The staff and I have long talks about how to get the kids motivated to keep playing hard but we can't come to a solution. We get on them about the lack of effort but it's nothing out of the ordinary. I lost my cool with them twice during the season. We were tied with the #2 team in the state in the middle of the third quarter and our kids start playing like crap after their offense punches it in to go up by six. I lose it with them on the sideline and tell that they can either prove that they're a quality football team by getting it together and winning this game or they can quit and lose. We lost 70-36. The second time, we were tied with a crap team 14-14 at half time and it was the last game of the year. I was furious and told them they had no place on a football field if they didn't win this game. This lit a fire under their a--es and we won 65-14. So, explain to me what I'm supposed to do here. One game, I get on them and they fall apart. The other game, I get on them and they play like studs.
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Post by bigmoot on Feb 16, 2017 9:56:08 GMT -6
coachcb...short answer, IDK. I have spent the last ten years working to turn around a few programs. One common denominator is that the confidence the kids have is one a knife's edge. Even when playing well, one bad play or a "here we go again moment" can really screw things up. Then some let down, and others begin to try too hard. By thay i mean they try to do it all instead of their job. like a DT trying to tackle the QB on IV instead of squeezing the down block. In trying to do too much they lose focus and stop doiong what they have been coached to do...again I really IDK.
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Post by mnike23 on Feb 16, 2017 10:01:34 GMT -6
as previously stated. when team wins, players and staff made great plays, adjustments to win the game. when a team loses, the coaches didnt prepare them enough. IT IS NEVER THE KIDS FAULT. even when it is their fault. its never their fault. you show the film and show their mistakes, point them out and correct them. but its never a 16 yr old kids fault for losing a game, even when it is. talk about wanting to make this generation of kids jump off the 3 story, good lord. blame them for losing a game.
i can see it, right out of all the right moves. coach blames the kid for a fumble, even when he did fumble, and drills his tail infront of the whole team. then the PI call and on and on. later that night, they dont trash coaches house, they jump off the top of the steel mill roof head first with a note saying coach said its my fault!
extreme, yes, but the reality of it is just that. kids are softer now than they were 10, 15,20, 30, 50 yrs ago.
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Post by carookie on Feb 16, 2017 10:22:26 GMT -6
If a coach spent 10-15 trying to teach something to a player, and the player is capable of executing it, but the player does not do it. Then I would definitely say there is significant fault resting with the coach. Just because he spent time working on something doesnt mean he coached it well. Maybe he needs to change how he is coaching. Time spent does not always equal good coaching. And I would never expect you not to call out your DT for not squeezing, you do need to keep him accountable and calling him out would help do so. However, just putting more time and continually repping in practice may not be the answer (we all know the definition of insanity). If he is consistently not executing what you believe you have coached him to do then it is your responsibility to coach him differently/better. Look at my second statement with regards to the the DT. You're seeing him executing it during inside run and team time. And, you've got the rest of the DL doing the same. You're running quality drills, teaching him the proper technique and yet he still screws it up during a game? At that point, I have done everything I can as a coach to get him to perform but he's not doing it. So, he either needs to get it done or we'll find someone who will. We already break the technique down into it's smallest parts. We've run drills that teach him the proper footwork and hand placement. We've run drills that teach them to step down with that block. Then we run drills that teach him to step down, find the puller and take him on. And, seeing as we're a Wing-T team, he's getting hit with it every single day during team time and inside run. Our DL probably get 50+ reps each day at spilling kick-out blocks. Yet he's still getting trapped constantly in games. So, how can we coach him "better"? This isn't a hypothetical situation for me. Before I took over my first HC gig, I was lucky enough to coach under two HOF coaches and learned from veterans. And, I study the game thoroughly and not just Xs and Os. I want to know specific skills, drills, cue words, etc..etc.. Do I consider myself a HOF coach? No, I do not. But, I work hard to make sure the kids get the best possible coaching and I'm fascinated by sports psychology. I take my first HC gig in a program with serious struggles and applied what I learned/was still learning to our kids. We are fundamentally sound when we're up big. Our fundamentals and effort go to sh-t when we're losing, in a tight game or playing a tough team. The staff and I aren't screaming, yelling or berating the kids in these difficult games; we're keeping ourselves under control. The staff and I have long talks about how to get the kids motivated to keep playing hard but we can't come to a solution. We get on them about the lack of effort but it's nothing out of the ordinary. I lost my cool with them twice during the season. We were tied with the #2 team in the state in the middle of the third quarter and our kids start playing like crap after their offense punches it in to go up by six. I lose it with them on the sideline and tell that they can either prove that they're a quality football team by getting it together and winning this game or they can quit and lose. We lost 70-36. The second time, we were tied with a crap team 14-14 at half time and it was the last game of the year. I was furious and told them they had no place on a football field if they didn't win this game. This lit a fire under their a--es and we won 65-14. So, explain to me what I'm supposed to do here. One game, I get on them and they fall apart. The other game, I get on them and they play like studs. Sounds like you did what you are supposed to do (held them accountable). My points are related to publicly blaming them, and have nothing to do with telling them they are wrong and holding them accountable. If a kid is doing something wrong you should hold them accountable (that is part of your responsibility as their coach). I think there is something being lost in translation here. My points are against publicly blaming players and coaches assuming that once they have told a player to do something, if the player fails to do it then it is 100% the players fault and the coaches hands are clean of responsibility. A lot here seem to feel that I am espousing an idea of coaches never holding a player accountable for a mistake; I am NOT. But as I wrote previously, there are two concepts going on here: fault and responsibility. If a player was tasked with doing something within his capabilities (say your DTs) and did not, then they are at least partially at fault. I am not writing players do not bear fault, I repeat players do bear fault. We should hold them accountable for their faults, and we should have them face their faults in an effort to improve them. However, there is also RESPONSIBILITY. It is our responsibility as a coach to instruct and teach our players in a manner that gets them to consistently perform at their full potential (taking into account all variables). Now, a term was used earlier about a player being an "asshat", if that is the case then that is a variable that limits said player's consistent potential (not much different than a player who has physical limitations). That being written, there are ways to communicate and coach all players to get the most out of them to get them to consistently perform at their potential. So often there are coaches who do things once, or only one way, and if it does not succeed they absolve themselves of RESPONSIBILITY (it worked before and since it didn't work this time it must be the fault of the player so I am not responsible). This, in my opinion, is wrong. That being written, in your provided example, you did not absolve yourself of responsibility. You got on the players and had them perform closer to potential. So please, don't assume I am questioning your coaching in any means. I am simply writing that it is almost always a mistake to blame the players to others; and though it may be a player's FAULT that he failed it is our RESPONSIBILITY to coach him in a way that he consistently performs at his best.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 16, 2017 10:34:06 GMT -6
This is a question that you would pose behind the closed doors of a staff room. I would hope that everyone on this board is smart enough to know that you don't blame the kids for ANYTHING outside of the privacy of that office.
I will say this, my AD in my first HC gig asked me if the school deserved football as we were spending a TON of money on the program. I told him no, that I didn't think the school deserved football. He didn't like my answer initially (I knew he wouldn't) but I explained my answer to him in more detail.
-August camp was a sh-t show. Only half of the kids would show up. And, our numbers were low enough that we were looking at forfeiting games if we didn't get stuff together.
-We'd struggle to have competitive program if kids felt that they could just show up the first day of school. Our numbers always doubled that day as our school policy allowed them to show up at that time. But, half of those kids wouldn't be eligible to play until the third game of the year.. Assuming I wanted to play them..
-We'd get up to 25 kids by the fourth week but we'd be right down to 15 by the end of the year (8-man program) as we'd kick kids off of the team for not showing up for practice or causing disruptions.
-We had several good co-op opportunities with bigger schools in the area. Our kids that loved football could play there and have success, versus muddling through a sh-t season because they were surrounded by sloths.
-The community did not support football, by any means. Basketball was king at that school and they'd have 40+ kids out for that sport. Many people (including other coaches) told the kids not to play football because they "were going to get hurt".
-Our closest away game was 3 hours away and we were spending huge amounts of money to travel, put the kids in hotel rooms and feed them.
I loved the kids on that team that were die-hard football players as they busted their a--es for me and we went through some tough times together. But, I felt that they'd be better off playing for one of the other schools in the area in a co-op as their hard work would pay actually pay off. I felt terrible for one of a couple of our kids that attended an 8-man camp with me over a summer. It was a team camp and we played for a hodge-podge team made up of other "orphans". We dominated that camp and one of our school's RBs was the offensive MVP for the week. We beat everyone with the exception of the eventual state champion. So, they went from that experience to showing up for fall ball and having their a--es handed to them weekly.
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Post by silkyice on Feb 16, 2017 10:41:52 GMT -6
Guys,
Some games are won and lost at conception!
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Post by groundchuck on Feb 16, 2017 11:13:14 GMT -6
I have a question....what are you doing critizing other coaches to your principal? Or did he come to you about it? Either way I don't really like it. But yes, never publicly blame the kids, I would never just come out and tell them it was their fault even if no one was around. If you're the AD then my bad. It was brought to my attention.
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Post by coachfloyd on Feb 16, 2017 11:13:25 GMT -6
Guys, Some games are won and lost at conception! When my right tackle was an army all american and went on to start at UGA I was a great coach. On rivals or scout it talked about how fundamentally sound he was. Then the next year my RT was 176lb converted TE. All the sudden I sucked as a coach. But I actually did a better job getting him to be viable. Few years later my oline was voted best coached in the region(didnt even know there was such a thing but Ill take it). Then this year we are awful on offense. I didnt go back and forth on being able to coach or not. Good players tend to do a better job at doing the things I coach them to do for some reason.
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Post by groundchuck on Feb 16, 2017 11:22:12 GMT -6
How about this scenario: You play a game with seven starters out for drinking or grades. I think that's a fantastic situation to explain to players the team lost this game off the field.
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Post by blb on Feb 16, 2017 11:32:14 GMT -6
How about when you have a Senior class who lost 7-8 players since their Freshman year, mostly due to grades, as a group never broke 40% attendance at Summer workouts, in their last year had more kids attend no workouts than came to all of them, and had less than half make more than 50% of the sessions?
Happened to me.
This goes to lochness' earlier post and is an example of how kids can lose games off the field.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2017 11:38:29 GMT -6
Publicly roasting kids is obviously a no-go. But I don't think it's inappropriate in a closed team meeting to tell some players, "You didn't perform to your capability or the way we coached you. You're way better than you played on Friday night and you have to show it." We're supposed to be preparing boys to be men in the real world. In what world will they live where they won't have their feet held to the fire for a poor performance? I'm not talking about an outing where their opponent was superior to them in every way (size, strength, athleticism), I'm talking about when they put in a lousy, heartless performance that is below their potential.
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Post by 33coach on Feb 16, 2017 11:50:38 GMT -6
I had this conversation with my principal. He was critiquing the performance of one of our winter sport coaches. He said that this coach told their team they were at fault for the loss the other night. My principal explained he did not think it was ever appropriate for a coach to lay blame on the players. Please discuss. it depends, and it all comes down to context. "We Lost Because You Suck" is alot different then "We Had Too Many Mental Mistakes". ill tell the kids when they screw up, but i will also always tell them HOW not to screw up.
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SconnieOC
Junior Member
Just here to learn the facemelter
Posts: 411
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Post by SconnieOC on Feb 16, 2017 11:53:39 GMT -6
Publicly roasting kids is obviously a no-go. But I don't think it's inappropriate in a closed team meeting to tell some players, "You didn't perform to your capability or the way we coached you. You're way better than you played on Friday night and you have to show it." We're supposed to be preparing boys to be men in the real world. In what world will they live where they won't have their feet held to the fire for a poor performance? I'm not talking about an outing where their opponent was superior to them in every way (size, strength, athleticism), I'm talking about when they put in a lousy, heartless performance that is below their potential. I'm glad you could put into words. I was thinking the same thing. If we're truly trying to prepare them for life, then this has to be a part of it. Their boss won't say they didn't prepare them properly if they lose a gigantic account.. they might get fired. They have to answer for sub par performance in the real world.. we all do it with yearly reviews. We don't get to blame the principal or superintendent if our marks are bad. I'm not saying publicly in anyway but in a team setting, behind closed doors, hold dudes accountable, but have a plan to fix it. Accepting the blame when anything goes wrong is admirable, and creates trust and is important.. but kids will also respect you if you hold them accountable as long as it's in the right way.
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Post by clowndude on Feb 16, 2017 12:04:03 GMT -6
I feel like playing devil's advocate for a second (not saying I agree with the position, just throwing it out there for thought).
The video is of Mike Leach pretty much lambasting his players in a presser this past season. I know it is college. However, his team's success did get a lot better after the presser... And I am sure he caught a lot of heat for it, too.
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center
Junior Member
Posts: 484
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Post by center on Feb 16, 2017 13:45:54 GMT -6
How about when you have a Senior class who lost 7-8 players since their Freshman year, mostly due to grades, as a group never broke 40% attendance at Summer workouts, in their last year had more kids attend no workouts than came to all of them, and had less than half make more than 50% of the sessions?Happened to me. This goes to lochness' earlier post and is an example of how kids can lose games off the field. Wow, that had to be a fun group to coach.
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Post by groundchuck on Feb 16, 2017 13:49:45 GMT -6
How about when you have a Senior class who lost 7-8 players since their Freshman year, mostly due to grades, as a group never broke 40% attendance at Summer workouts, in their last year had more kids attend no workouts than came to all of them, and had less than half make more than 50% of the sessions?Happened to me. This goes to lochness' earlier post and is an example of how kids can lose games off the field. Wow, that had to be a fun group to coach. He could be describing my last team here too.
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Post by joelee on Feb 16, 2017 13:53:14 GMT -6
I feel like playing devil's advocate for a second (not saying I agree with the position, just throwing it out there for thought). The video is of Mike Leach pretty much lambasting his players in a presser this past season. I know it is college. However, his team's success did get a lot better after the presser... And I am sure he caught a lot of heat for it, too. Leach is a weird guy psychologically. I keep an eye on what he does and says because of my air-raid background, but some of his stuff backfires. This years bowl game was awful, they either pressed way too much or laid down on him, but no adjustments were made during the game to try to stem the tide.
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Post by 3rdandlong on Feb 16, 2017 14:19:59 GMT -6
Guys, Some games are won and lost at conception! I would say the vast majority of them are.
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Post by carookie on Feb 16, 2017 14:50:52 GMT -6
Guys, Some games are won and lost at conception! I would say the vast majority of them are. Thats interesting, I was thinking about that the other day. The number I came up with in my mind was 1/4 of HS games (but that was just a guess). I wonder how many HS games are decided before they even start?
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Post by 3rdandlong on Feb 16, 2017 15:24:06 GMT -6
I would say the vast majority of them are. Thats interesting, I was thinking about that the other day. The number I came up with in my mind was 1/4 of HS games (but that was just a guess). I wonder how many HS games are decided before they even start? If I'm going off of my last season (12 games), 7 of them were. 5 of them we weren't going to win no matter how hard we worked or how great of a scheme we had. Those other guys were just that much more gifted. 2 of them we would have won even if we didn't practice for an entire week. The other 5 came down to coaching, execution, discipline, plain luck, etc. We went 4-1 in those games.
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Post by s73 on Feb 16, 2017 15:46:35 GMT -6
Publicly shaming? Absolutely not.
Pointing fingers never helps anyone either.
Now....I will say this, I have no issue pointing out to my team how they hurt themselves at our post game talk BUT....I will only really harp on them if it's something I talked about repeatedly in practice and warned them might cost them the game.
An example would be our ball security last year. NEVER spent more time on it then I did last year running the same drills I always have & regardless, our kids were just careless with the ball. In practice before 1 big game I finally told them this is going to cost you guys big b/c it's not important enough to you.
Sure enough we lost that week and fumbled 3 times. So yes, I did say it cost us the game afterwards but not as an "I told you so" but more as PLEASE LEARN FROM THIS!
I also think likewise when you screw up as coach you have to man up and say so as well. Very few coaches usually do though IME.
JMO.
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jbutch17
Freshmen Member
[F4:@JButch17]
Posts: 95
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Post by jbutch17 on Feb 17, 2017 7:58:36 GMT -6
I would say the vast majority of them are. Thats interesting, I was thinking about that the other day. The number I came up with in my mind was 1/4 of HS games (but that was just a guess). I wonder how many HS games are decided before they even start? I'd put that number closer to 3/4
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Feb 17, 2017 8:07:01 GMT -6
For us, all 12 of our games were decided before the flip. Not to sound like an a$$ but we were the best team on the field at all times talent-wise and the most prepared. Our closest game was a 21-14 win with 2 of our studs out with injury and the other team had a GREAT gameplan against us in a nasty weather game. They led 14-0 going into the 4th. We scored the game winner with 22 secs on the clock.
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