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Post by fantom on Feb 1, 2017 14:35:51 GMT -6
In threads about coaching clinics I often read posts that say that they don't listen to upper level coaches because they don't have the same caliber of players as those speakers. I've always been puzzled by that line of thought so I'll ask: What are the things that you can't ever use? What are specific examples of things that were taught at a clinic that you knew that you'd never have players who are good enough to execute?
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Post by **** on Feb 1, 2017 14:44:29 GMT -6
Having DL cover a skill guy. I'm never going to have a guy that can drop from the line and cover a WR.
Listened to Kevin Gilbride at a clinic and basically watched film of Eli Manning doing things I've never seen a HS kid do.
Having a QB read more than 3 routes, or actually being able to protect that long.
Running any kind of play that requires a "NFL throw" like a deep out from the opposite hash.
A lot of times it's just the coach saying something along the lines of... "well the play is designed like this, but AJ Green actually did this and it worked" My kid is not 6'4", running a 4.5, with a 35+ vertical, 12" hands, and etc
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Post by fantom on Feb 1, 2017 14:46:31 GMT -6
Having DL cover a skill guy. I'm never going to have a guy that can drop from the line and cover a WR. Listened to Kevin Gilbride at a clinic and basically watched film of Eli Manning doing things I've never seen a HS kid do. Having a QB read more than 3 routes, or actually being able to protect that long. Running any kind of play that requires a "NFL throw" like a deep out from the opposite hash. Question 2: Did the speaker have other ideas that were useful?
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Post by **** on Feb 1, 2017 14:49:38 GMT -6
Having DL cover a skill guy. I'm never going to have a guy that can drop from the line and cover a WR. Listened to Kevin Gilbride at a clinic and basically watched film of Eli Manning doing things I've never seen a HS kid do. Having a QB read more than 3 routes, or actually being able to protect that long. Running any kind of play that requires a "NFL throw" like a deep out from the opposite hash. Question 2: Did the speaker have other ideas that were useful? Here is all the notes I took when I listened to Kevin Gilbride Kevin Gilbride – Giants Vertical Stretch Pass Not man coverage until he turns and plays you -Wr reading defenders for routes - QB reads wr body language but should know what hes doing by way defense plays wr Man read bottom up Zone read top down Always look for big play --------------------------------- I could write a book from the notes I took from Slack and Maddox
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Post by fantom on Feb 1, 2017 14:57:10 GMT -6
Question 2: Did the speaker have other ideas that were useful? Here is all the notes I took when I listened to Kevin Gilbride Kevin Gilbride – Giants Vertical Stretch Pass Not man coverage until he turns and plays you -Wr reading defenders for routes - QB reads wr body language but should know what hes doing by way defense plays wr Man read bottom up Zone read top down Always look for big play --------------------------------- I could write a book from the notes I took from Slack and Maddox So I should mark that down as a "Yes"?
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Post by **** on Feb 1, 2017 17:12:41 GMT -6
Here is all the notes I took when I listened to Kevin Gilbride Kevin Gilbride – Giants Vertical Stretch Pass Not man coverage until he turns and plays you -Wr reading defenders for routes - QB reads wr body language but should know what hes doing by way defense plays wr Man read bottom up Zone read top down Always look for big play --------------------------------- I could write a book from the notes I took from Slack and Maddox So I should mark that down as a "Yes"? He taught me anything is possible when you have Eli Manning and OBJ.
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Post by fantom on Feb 1, 2017 17:36:32 GMT -6
So I should mark that down as a "Yes"? He taught me anything is possible when you have Eli Manning and OBJ. I've never coached QB's. I have no idea if any of that stuff makes sense so I misread what you meant. Does anybody else have an example of a talk that you considered useless because your players couldn't do it?
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Post by coachbdud on Feb 1, 2017 19:02:05 GMT -6
I would say the biggest thing would be in regard to OL play and pad level/technique
I feel the way most NFL/NCAA OL play is with very high pad level Very vertical spines (especially zone teams)
We always have 1-2 OL starters around 185-190 lbs that does not work for them
so some of the things I teach are technically "wrong" and i know that -yes we are off balanced -yes we fall on our faces some times but the little engine that could type of OL has to be super low to block someone bigger/stronger than them
i think we would get killed if we stood up and tried to bench press guys
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Post by bigmoot on Feb 1, 2017 19:07:01 GMT -6
I would say the biggest thing would be in regard to OL play and pad level/technique I feel the way most NFL/NCAA OL play is with very high pad level Very vertical spines (especially zone teams) We always have 1-2 OL starters around 185-190 lbs that does not work for them so some of the things I teach are technically "wrong" and i know that -yes we are off balanced -yes we fall on our faces some times but the little engine that could type of OL has to be super low to block someone bigger/stronger than them i think we would get killed if we stood up and tried to bench press guys I agree
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Post by lions23 on Feb 1, 2017 22:01:25 GMT -6
Sometimes I feel like it is more of I don't have enough time to teach all of that. Many of those upper level guy's are phenomenal at teaching fundamentals. They have great teaching points and cues for fundamental techniques. You can get a ton from that sort of clinic IMHO.
But when it gets to scheme and they start talking about everything that they do often times I just don't have time to add those things and do well enough to execute. My meeting time is short. Film is short. And really practice is shorter bc all my guys have to at least back up a position on the other side of the ball if they don't already go both ways.
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Post by mattharris75 on Feb 2, 2017 0:03:14 GMT -6
so some of the things I teach are technically "wrong" and i know that Hey, they're only wrong if they don't work!
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Post by **** on Feb 2, 2017 6:31:03 GMT -6
He taught me anything is possible when you have Eli Manning and OBJ. I've never coached QB's. I have no idea if any of that stuff makes sense so I misread what you meant. Does anybody else have an example of a talk that you considered useless because your players couldn't do it? I don't agree with his read progression on man/zone. I'm not a big Air Raid guy where WR's read coverage to determine their route post snap. Only thing I got out of it was telling the QB it's not man till he turns. One thing is better than nothing though.
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Post by rosey65 on Feb 2, 2017 7:24:30 GMT -6
I would say the biggest thing would be in regard to OL play and pad level/technique I feel the way most NFL/NCAA OL play is with very high pad level Very vertical spines (especially zone teams) We always have 1-2 OL starters around 185-190 lbs that does not work for them so some of the things I teach are technically "wrong" and i know that -yes we are off balanced -yes we fall on our faces some times but the little engine that could type of OL has to be super low to block someone bigger/stronger than them i think we would get killed if we stood up and tried to bench press guys Yes!! A lot of the footwork and hand technique, in both run and pass, revolves around athleticism, size and strength. While a few of my OL have the genes to block effectively, a lot of my kids have to work angles and leverage laterally, working with head placement, pad level, and shoulder surface...the concepts behind the blocking all align, but the steps and techiques will differ. I've made the analogy before...while we're all cooking meat, the NFL/NCAA guys have a bone-in rib-eye and commercial infrared grill. I have a pack of ballparks and an easy-bake oven. We both sear and reach an internal temperature, but the steps we follow arent always the same.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2017 7:41:51 GMT -6
In threads about coaching clinics I often read posts that say that they don't listen to upper level coaches because they don't have the same caliber of players as those speakers. I've always been puzzled by that line of thought so I'll ask: What are the things that you can't ever use? What are specific examples of things that were taught at a clinic that you knew that you'd never have players who are good enough to execute? The stuff about OL play is one big one. Others are some drills that require expensive equipment we just don't have or they're things that don't take into account the different types of schemes we'll need to defend. Personally, I don't think it's the upper level coaches who are as guilty of clinicing on things that HS coaches can never use due to a lack of athletes, so much as it is HS coaches who have vastly superior athletes relative to their competition giving talks on "innovative" things that require those kids to work. For example, I went to a presentation on "Utilizing an H-Back" last spring. The guy giving the talk was at a program that had won state a ton over the last few years and he was giving a talk on all the different ways you could split a kid out, run him down the seam, have him insert into the blocking scheme, throw screens to him, etc. Now, I might have a kid who can do some of those things each year... but his H-Back was 6'5" 240lbs and ran 4.5. I'm not going to ever throw bubble screens or run Jet Sweeps to our H-Backs who run 5.0 on a good day. I'm also leery of defensive presentations that do things like have a S line up on one hash and then play the deep 1/2 to the opposite hash.
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Post by coachfrankc on Feb 2, 2017 11:38:24 GMT -6
For us it's RPO stuff. We're a triple option team and our QBs struggle w/ some of their Option reads, so we'd be asking too much to have them read the defender and then run OR pass from it.
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Post by QBCoachDurham on Feb 2, 2017 11:46:04 GMT -6
I listened to an SEC WR coach talk about cut blocking for 45 minutes once. He started the talk by saying "I know you guys can't do this, but here is how we do it". I didn't get up and leave because Chad Morris once told me that no matter who is talking and what they're talking about, you can usually pick up something that you can use. That wasn't the case here, but it is usually true.
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Post by coachbdud on Feb 2, 2017 11:53:26 GMT -6
i think the funniest clinic talk i saw was by Dana Stubblefield
it wasnt that he had bad info or anything, he went through some drills and technique stuff
but the last 30 minutes or so was us watching essentially HIS highlight tape not HS or college kids he coached but his NFL Film of him just beating the Crap out of people lol
"watch what i do to this guy"
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Post by rosey65 on Feb 2, 2017 11:56:35 GMT -6
i think the funniest clinic talk i saw was by Dana Stubblefield it wasnt that he had bad info or anything, he went through some drills and technique stuff but the last 30 minutes or so was us watching essentially HIS highlight tape not HS or college kids he coached but his NFL Film of him just beating the Crap out of people lol "watch what i do to this guy" HAHAHA!!!!!!!! Thats terrible...
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Post by coachwilliams2 on Feb 2, 2017 12:01:17 GMT -6
I like the Mike LB being APEXed on #3 in empty. Has to carry 3 vertical and play A gap....
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Post by carookie on Feb 2, 2017 12:30:05 GMT -6
Well, since talent is relative then it would have to mean things that you ask a player to do where the opposition has little to no impact on his ability to do the action.
I believe asking QBs to make certain throws fits into this, the amount of reads you ask a player to make (or for that matter the overall amount of information/techniques you ask a player to learn), and kicking from a certain distance.
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Post by fantom on Feb 2, 2017 13:24:45 GMT -6
For us it's RPO stuff. We're a triple option team and our QBs struggle w/ some of their Option reads, so we'd be asking too much to have them read the defender and then run OR pass from it. Yeah, but that's not because of talent. That's because you made the decision that RPO's would interfere with your QB's ability to execute his main job. It doesn't fit your system. Everybody else does that.
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Post by jgordon1 on Feb 2, 2017 13:48:00 GMT -6
One of the things I tried but could not do what to flip a zone pressure based on the rb. good in theory and in practice but we F'ed it up in the games
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Post by fshamrock on Feb 2, 2017 13:54:32 GMT -6
off topic a bit but my biggest gripe about the big time coaches is that they show you some super cool stuff they are doing, then bring up the film and they have like 2 clips of the thing actually working, and both of them are week 2 when they were playing Kansas Weslyan school of Mines and up by 40. Show me the stuff you run that worked against Ohio State dude
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2017 15:45:58 GMT -6
i think the funniest clinic talk i saw was by Dana Stubblefield it wasnt that he had bad info or anything, he went through some drills and technique stuff but the last 30 minutes or so was us watching essentially HIS highlight tape not HS or college kids he coached but his NFL Film of him just beating the Crap out of people lol "watch what i do to this guy" That's classic. The funniest one I've seen was one last year on "Defending the Power Read" by an FCS DC. Dude talked for about 10 minutes, then showed 30 minutes of clips of his defense getting GASHED by Power Read over and over again. After each clip, he'd say something like "Well, that was a pretty good job right there. We would have stopped it if only..."
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Post by jrk5150 on Feb 2, 2017 16:18:03 GMT -6
That actually drives me nuts. At least have the respect for the audience to have relevant clips ready, not just crap you or your GA/student admin threw together. I want to see when you do it right and it works, when you do it wrong and it still works (and why), then when you do it right and it doesn't work (and explain why), and even when you do it wrong and how you fix it. That's coaching, that's teaching...
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Post by indian1 on Feb 2, 2017 17:35:49 GMT -6
I'd say there are very few things that fall into that category because your athletes are relative to your competition just like theirs are. The whole "well they do that because they have studs.." is bogus because they play against studs too.
I can't think of anything I've seen at a clinic and said "well I don't have the kids to do that". There's plenty that I've decided we won't do because it might not be worth the practice time for how much we would do it or compared to other stuff we want to do. I think you can do almost anything the "big time" guys do if you are willing to give it the practice time it needs.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2017 18:34:42 GMT -6
I'm going to let you in on a little secret. If you want to find stuff that works, go to places that win consistently with lesser talent. If you are listening to the Alabama's and FSU's of the world, you aren't going to find much that can help you. I look to guys like Don Brown at Michigan, who's had a good defense pretty much everywhere he's been. Dave Aranda did a phenominal job at Wisconsin, as does Iowa and TCU used to but here lately has run afoul. Anyhow, visiting those guys is going to help you much more than going to see Saban, or Stoops. Wanna know where TGOG came from? It came from a Big 10 school that competes year in and year out for conference championships. They don't win many, but they are competitive, and that's all we're looking for when we don't have the Jimmy's and the Joe's!
Duece
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Post by nicku on Feb 2, 2017 18:37:18 GMT -6
Kansas Weslyan school of Mines up by 40 Idk man, gotta give a guy credit for beating two different schools by 40 at the same time i kid, but you make a good point. I remember as a player asking sometimes why we didn't run certain things later in the season when they worked so well. In reality, it was really basic stuff that let us just out athlete the other guys while working on our most simple stuff.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 2, 2017 18:47:29 GMT -6
Sometimes I feel like it is more of I don't have enough time to teach all of that. Many of those upper level guy's are phenomenal at teaching fundamentals. They have great teaching points and cues for fundamental techniques. You can get a ton from that sort of clinic IMHO. But when it gets to scheme and they start talking about everything that they do often times I just don't have time to add those things and do well enough to execute. My meeting time is short. Film is short. And really practice is shorter bc all my guys have to at least back up a position on the other side of the ball if they don't already go both ways. This is dead on. For example, we would love to have a more comprehensive 3 and five-step game within our Wing-T attack. But, we simply don't have the time to teach the kids more than the few concepts we do. We might be able to add in a few more if we platooned but I seriously doubt it. Even then, we would still focus on adding in some different PA route combinations as we throw that way more than we throw five-step drops. And, our serious issues have never been due to personnel: it's been due to lack of experience and an eye for detail among the staff. You can actually make "chicken chit out of chicken salad" if you have a group of committed coaches. But, those can be hard to come by these days.
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Post by indian1 on Feb 2, 2017 18:51:59 GMT -6
I'm going to let you in on a little secret. If you want to find stuff that works, go to places that win consistently with lesser talent. If you are listening to the Alabama's and FSU's of the world, you aren't going to find much that can help you. I look to guys like Don Brown at Michigan, who's had a good defense pretty much everywhere he's been. Dave Aranda did a phenominal job at Wisconsin, as does Iowa and TCU used to but here lately has run afoul. Anyhow, visiting those guys is going to help you much more than going to see Saban, or Stoops. Wanna know where TGOG came from? It came from a Big 10 school that competes year in and year out for conference championships. They don't win many, but they are competitive, and that's all we're looking for when we don't have the Jimmy's and the Joe's! Duece You make a good point in that the top college programs can just out-athlete probably 60% of their schedule, and have depth that most of us can only dream of (even relative to competition). That's why I really enjoy listening to NFL coaches. They have more comparable problems to a HS coach in some ways. They are limited to a 53 man roster. The level of talent in the league is fairly even (I know that's arguable). They have similar issues with starters needing to be involved in special teams, having maybe 7 O-linemen who can really play, and a premium put on guys who can play multiple positions. IMO the coaching done at the NFL level is more nuanced and detail oriented than the college powerhouses because they kind of have to be.
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