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Post by striker17 on Jan 23, 2017 9:16:14 GMT -6
Howdy all. I have finally registered but have been lurking for a while. I have 15 players. Does anyone have any experience on how I can best coach these guys? To me it is like getting ready for a fight by shadow boxing. I don't have delusions of grandeur however I would like for these guys to have fun and get at least 1 "W". I have been toying with the idea of teaching blocking and then introducing the Reed SW. Second question. Do you run a skills assessment (40 time, change direction time etc) for initial position placement or stick the big guys on the line and move them around when football IQ shows itself (into the backfield)?
Thanks in advance
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Post by cqmiller on Jan 23, 2017 9:26:13 GMT -6
Get good at simulating game situations using only half the players... If you are practicing zone right, only use your RG, RT, TE with a DT, DE, & OLB rather than all of the lineman on both sides. That little number is gonna be a lot of 1on1 coaching and some great opportunity to improve skill level of the kids with all the reps they will get.
Don't limit your offense/defense because of the number of kids. If you have 2 kids who can flat-out run and catch with a kid who can at least get the ball to them, you may want to do more of a passing-attack offense, if you have one stud RB and a bunch of average joes, then an I-formation or system where the defense cannot dictate who runs the ball would be best. Fit your system to the kids, not the kids to the system.
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Post by blb on Jan 23, 2017 9:40:12 GMT -6
How many coaches including yourself?
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Post by spos21ram on Jan 23, 2017 10:33:29 GMT -6
When I was coaching freshmen, we had anywhere from 20-34 players on any given year. Our HS team was all one team, varsity coaches split off during team time so they all did indy by position. If you're the only coach then indy time is almost out of the question. But when it came to installing plays, making sure kids knew their assignments, executed proper steps...we ran our whole offense on air and rarely went up against a scout D and we were always extremely successful. Big point which I already said though, you need to make sure everything is perfect on air. The less the number of coaches the less eyes you have on this but with 15 kids you can run the same play a few times and watch different players each time.
The big positive of low numbers is that you can rep the hell out of your offense and they'll run it almost flawlessly. Obviously if you have no talent your guys will block the right guy and take perfect steps, but they may execute poorly because the other guy is just better.
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Post by jrk5150 on Jan 23, 2017 11:01:48 GMT -6
First, stay away from the Reed SW. Useless, MUCH better options out there. If you want SW, get Cisar's material.
Do a lot with small groups. Hopefully you can have at least one other coach so you can at least get some indie work done. But I also realize you will need to have kids playing both line and RB, so you'll have to get creative. Keep your blocking rules very simple so that you can plug and play, so to speak.
I had 18 kids, frequently less than that for practices. One of the mistakes I made was to minimize full speed tackling reps in practice (repped on bags and did more contained drills like splatter) trying to avoid injuries. But that age group needs to tackle to learn how to tackle, especially tackling in space. So we were HORRIBLE tackling, and got our butts kicked because of that. Never again.
I did a lot of half-line stuff. Again, you have to get creative. I'd put live defenders at the point of attack and/or any pressure points we were struggling against, and coaches with bags in other spots so we could at least rep the assignment and technique. For example, we struggled against backside A gap penetration, so I always had a live body going full speed in the backside A gap.
I had 3 coaches (me + 2), and we had 2 HS players helping out. So at least we could usually get 7-8 "bodies" on D to rep plays against.
I did a ton of reps against bags on O as well, to again try to avoid injury. We also have contact time limitations in Pop Warner that don't apply to hitting bags, so that's another reason we were bag-heavy.
The biggest issue I had was trying to practice defense. It's very difficult to do. I ran a lot of half-line again, and I played QB. Still wasn't very good. Something's gotta give with low #'s, and it's really hard to have your key defenders learning how to/get good reps reading their keys when you don't have enough bodies.
I run a very simple D that relies on pressure. It makes it a little easier to coach in this situation, but it's still a struggle. And as I said - not tackling enough in practice really did us in.
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Post by Chris Clement on Jan 23, 2017 11:10:33 GMT -6
You can also use assistant coaches in some of the less important positions on a given play or to fill a need. For example if you only have six big kids you won't be able to run an ol/DL against each other so an asst coach can mine at guard or something, just make sure your player doesn't try to kill him. Dads can also make passable scout LBs and just tag the RB.
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Post by striker17 on Jan 23, 2017 14:34:05 GMT -6
Last year we had 3 coaches but I expect only 1 and hope for another |
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Post by 19delta on Jan 23, 2017 16:40:33 GMT -6
You can also use assistant coaches in some of the less important positions on a given play or to fill a need. For example if you only have six big kids you won't be able to run an ol/DL against each other so an asst coach can mine at guard or something, just make sure your player doesn't try to kill him. Dads can also make passable scout LBs and just tag the RB. Yeah. In addition, make sure you tell the dads that they are only they for perspective, not to re-live past glories. You shouldn't have to tell them that, but there always seems to be 1-2 meatheads who want to go full-speed against the kids. And get 55-gallon plastic garbage cans to work on timing and blocking assignments. |
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Post by 19delta on Jan 23, 2017 16:41:40 GMT -6
Last year we had 3 coaches but I expect only 1 and hope for another Incidentally, when does your season start? Is this some kind of spring football league? Around here, we are closing in on the end of wrestling and basketball and getting ready for track and baseball. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2017 0:34:58 GMT -6
You can also use assistant coaches in some of the less important positions on a given play or to fill a need. For example if you only have six big kids you won't be able to run an ol/DL against each other so an asst coach can mine at guard or something, just make sure your player doesn't try to kill him. Dads can also make passable scout LBs and just tag the RB. Yeah. In addition, make sure you tell the dads that they are only they for perspective, not to re-live past glories. You shouldn't have to tell them that, but there always seems to be 1-2 meatheads who want to go full-speed against the kids. And get 55-gallon plastic garbage cans to work on timing and blocking assignments. The first year I coached middle school we had 18 to start and finished with 13 due to injuries. It's extremely frustrating, I felt like the kids were being cheated because it was near impossible to give the offense or defense a real look. That said, I agree with 19delta. The right dads can be a big help but a meathead dad is a liability. We also used trash cans to help kids with alignment and staying on their path. Your job at this point is not about W's, it's about teaching them the fundamentals so that they can hit the ground running as high schoolers and also instilling a love for the game in them. That first year that I coached we (the HC and I) inherited a program that was awful. The previous year they didn't get a 1st down all season let alone score points or win a game. We ended up not winning a single game either but the kids improved immensely, learned a lot and had fun. Losing every game really ate at me. The following year we won a championship. I have to say, I learned a LOT more about coaching and myself the year we lost every game. I wish you good luck! |
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Post by Chris Clement on Jan 24, 2017 13:07:28 GMT -6
Good point. My dads only knew hockey, they had no football knowledge, so I said "stand five yards in front of Jeremie and go chase the ballcarrier and tag him." It was a stunningly accurate look for a MS LB. They're the biggest and fastest guys on the field and they chase the ball blindly.
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Post by tiger46 on Jan 24, 2017 16:42:48 GMT -6
Are these MS agedplayers? Or, are you a coach for an actual MS? And, is your MS part of a feeder program? Are you going up against teams with significantly higher numbers than your team? Have the kids played football before? What was their previous season(s) experience like? There's a lot of information that you will want to have before setting out with low numbers. I used to freak out about low numbers. Now, I just shrug. We've done well enough with low numbers. However, 12u is our highest age group. I'd recommend following jrk5150's advice and stay away from Reed's SW. Use Dave Cisar's sw and coaching material if that's the way that you want to go. There are some threads on this site about dealing with low numbers. I've posted in a few. I'm far from a guru. But, I'll answer whatever I can. Practice Organization: Never run laps...ever! Stances, cadences, etc... can be taught during warm-ups. Short dynamic warm-up period. Focus on speed & power exercises. ex: Lunges, drum majors, leapers, etc... Burpies. Bear crawls are good. But, Don't go over 5yrds at a time. MPP's Defense (Aggression, Pursuit, Tackling, Alignment & Assignments, Pass Defense) Offense (Scheme isn't quite as important unless it's a feeder program. O-line, Blocking, Alignment & Assignment, RB's, QB's, WR's) Special Teams- How hard/easy do you want it to be? But, spend a some time on it. In fact, get rid of any after practice conditioning drills and use that time as Special Teams segment. Running down the field will get them in shape. Use half-line drills. However, do so in a progressive manner. Start with 1vs.1. Start coaching actual position techniques, etc... as you build up. Threads such as this should be helpful. coachhuey.com/thread/70250/indys |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2017 16:53:22 GMT -6
^^ Good post. My first year coaching middle school, when we had 18 kids, the HC said, "Most of our guys are going to have to go both ways so we're going to have to condition the heck out of them." It made sense but I noticed that after every middle school game I had attended in the past the kids were chasing each other around and seemed to have energy to burn. So we focused on having practice at as quick a tempo as we could and focused on technique, alignment and assignment. I don't think we ever got beat from poor conditioning. YMMV.
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Post by newt21 on Jan 24, 2017 17:27:27 GMT -6
Lots of half line, use trash cans or traffic cones for positions you can't fill, during indy time use other positions to fill the scout roll (on LB drills use DBs as ball carriers/DB drills have LBs play receiver).
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Post by tiger46 on Jan 25, 2017 1:26:13 GMT -6
I do as newt21 does about getting different positions filling in the scout rolls. I like to start with the O-linemen filling in as receivers when I first start teaching the DB's. O-linemen love running down field for passes. Again, good conditioning for them. You may also discover some OL's that can actually catch footballs. We did. More importantly, it gives the DB's more time to react and execute their assignments since the OL's are typically slower. Then we'd graduate the DB's up to defending against faster players like LB/RB-types. Also, not only make sure the practices are fast-paced; make sure they're competitive. We make any, and every, drill that we can some type of competitive drill.
Anyone can get on a football field and get the crap kicked out of them and then be told they are tough because they 'hung in there and didn't quit'. Well, that is true. But, you want them to learn to fight and to win those fights from the opening kick-off. Teams with low numbers are less able to afford to wait until midway through the 3rd quarter to decide to start playing football. They have to play sharp immediately! The players will perform how you expect them to perform on the field. Expect them to, maybe, win one game in a season and that's what they'll, maybe, do. Expect them to have a winning season, go undefeated or, even win a championship. That's what they'll do.
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Post by funkfriss on Jan 25, 2017 9:34:36 GMT -6
To piggy back off Newt, a lot of your individual drills can be done as 2-way drills, especially involving OL.
Ex: OL blocking drills vs. 2nd level defenders - One coach focuses on OL technique when blocking 2nd level defender, 2nd coach focuses on defenders defeating blocks.
Ex: OL pass blocking vs. rush/blitz
Ex: OL run schemes (w/ RB carrying) vs. LB reads - Have an entire OL/QB/RB with only LBs on Defense (cans up front as DL). One coach working the run schemes, one coach coaching LB reads and fits. Can do the same with only DL working block recognition.
Remember, it's ok to have a kid in a position he doesn't normally play to make sure the drill works. For example, if you're working OL pass blocking and you're left with a bunch of DBs, they can pass rush in the drill. Who knows, you might find one that has a knack for it that you can use as a rush OLB/DE at times.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 29, 2017 9:23:21 GMT -6
Howdy all. I have finally registered but have been lurking for a while. I have 15 players. Does anyone have any experience on how I can best coach these guys? To me it is like getting ready for a fight by shadow boxing. I don't have delusions of grandeur however I would like for these guys to have fun and get at least 1 "W". I have been toying with the idea of teaching blocking and then introducing the Reed SW. Second question. Do you run a skills assessment (40 time, change direction time etc) for initial position placement or stick the big guys on the line and move them around when football IQ shows itself (into the backfield)? Thanks in advance At least 1 W? Why are you so down on the season. You can only play 11 at time, so you have enough. Keep in mind that most MS games fly by, especially if one team is purposely trying to slow the game down, so conditioning isn't that great a factor. The key here is to look at this as a wonderful opportunity to teach football fundamentals to 15 young guys. You can make each of those 15 players a better blocker, block destroyer, and tackler. If your guys are blocking better, getting off of blocks better, and tackling better than other teams, you shouldn't only win 1 game. You have to really sell this aspect and work hard to avoid lackadaisical drill work, but the degree of improvement can be amazing. Running plays against a "scout" team at MS can often be WORSE than running on air. I would agree with many of the posts in this thread. Half line drills, 2 on 1, 3 on 2 type drills simulating game situations are great. As someone else mentioned, how many (if any) assistant coaches do you have? You say you and one other, and hopefully a 3rd. s0 5-8 players each? Great ratio for improvement. |
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Post by 53 on Jan 29, 2017 13:57:20 GMT -6
I love coaching at small schools. We generally have between 15 and 18 on our team. There's nothing better than beating the hell out of a team that has 40 or 50 on their team and was laughing at your boys getting off the bus and warm ups.
The team that I took over had went a couple of years without winning a game If the team scored during a game, they treated it like winning a game. Build the culture of taking pride in playing ironman football, and coach the hell out of fundamentals. Don't turn the ball over and being good at tackling and blocking will keep you in almost every game.
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Post by morris on Feb 25, 2017 21:25:01 GMT -6
Just did this. On O we went Cisar SW pretty much. The difference was we TKO blocked it up front. Then we added a few adjustments. It allowed us to cross train very easily. Any time I'm stuck in such a case this would be my approach.
Now we used a 46 on defense. Great D but not for this case. Find something where you can cross train easily. Maybe Murphy's 44 Swarm or the Braindead defense (Rick Stewart runs it under another name I think).
Do work special teams and cross train.
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Post by 33coach on Feb 27, 2017 14:00:58 GMT -6
ive been there and i have a few thoughts for you:
1) Playing time, your kids will be playing most of the game both ways...... WORK S&C MORE THEN SCHEME
2) Slow Down, huddle alot, run something that chews clock. going fast will only wear your kids down
3) Half Lines, 3-on-3, 4-on-4, 5-on-5... thats the only "team" situations you are going to get, get good at them
4) low contact, high reps in practice - dont get hurt. and get as many reps as you can at any one thing.
5) create artificial depth through cross training - your 4 guys on the sideline need to go in for any player at any time (within reason)... because you dont know who will be gassed
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Post by jrk5150 on Feb 28, 2017 8:05:11 GMT -6
ive been there and i have a few thoughts for you: 4) low contact, high reps in practice - dont get hurt. and get as many reps as you can at any one thing. I realize we may not be disagreeing, but I'll reiterate something I said earlier - don't skimp on open field tackling because of numbers and fear of injury. Even if 11 on 11 wasn't ever a big part of your routine, whatever part it was you lost, and you need to replace it. With 11-12-13 year old kids, you need to figure out how to mimic the chaos that 11 on 11 represents, and get them running and blocking and tackling in space. Granted, I might be singing a different song if I'd have had to forfeit games because kids got hurt hitting in practice, but I sure as heck lost some games this past year because of lousy open field tackling. And IMO that was all about how we practiced - I was afraid to get kids hurt so I dialed it way back and we did almost no full speed full contact in space. Since that was the exact skill we failed to execute on during games, I'm going to say the two were linked... |
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Post by 33coach on Feb 28, 2017 8:53:41 GMT -6
ive been there and i have a few thoughts for you: 4) low contact, high reps in practice - dont get hurt. and get as many reps as you can at any one thing. I realize we may not be disagreeing, but I'll reiterate something I said earlier - don't skimp on open field tackling because of numbers and fear of injury. Even if 11 on 11 wasn't ever a big part of your routine, whatever part it was you lost, and you need to replace it. With 11-12-13 year old kids, you need to figure out how to mimic the chaos that 11 on 11 represents, and get them running and blocking and tackling in space. Granted, I might be singing a different song if I'd have had to forfeit games because kids got hurt hitting in practice, but I sure as heck lost some games this past year because of lousy open field tackling. And IMO that was all about how we practiced - I was afraid to get kids hurt so I dialed it way back and we did almost no full speed full contact in space. Since that was the exact skill we failed to execute on during games, I'm going to say the two were linked... Definitely. You need to teach tackling at speed and get good at it. My point was more that every drill every day doesn't have to end with a tackle. |
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Post by jrk5150 on Feb 28, 2017 9:24:48 GMT -6
Agreed.
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Post by bobgoodman on Mar 1, 2017 15:56:41 GMT -6
ive been there and i have a few thoughts for you: 4) low contact, high reps in practice - dont get hurt. and get as many reps as you can at any one thing. I realize we may not be disagreeing, but I'll reiterate something I said earlier - don't skimp on open field tackling because of numbers and fear of injury. Even if 11 on 11 wasn't ever a big part of your routine, whatever part it was you lost, and you need to replace it. With 11-12-13 year old kids, you need to figure out how to mimic the chaos that 11 on 11 represents, and get them running and blocking and tackling in space. Granted, I might be singing a different song if I'd have had to forfeit games because kids got hurt hitting in practice, but I sure as heck lost some games this past year because of lousy open field tackling. And IMO that was all about how we practiced - I was afraid to get kids hurt so I dialed it way back and we did almost no full speed full contact in space. Since that was the exact skill we failed to execute on during games, I'm going to say the two were linked... In my experience with children, most of the success or failure with defense in the open field concerned the pursuit leading up to the tackle, rather than the finish (the tackle itself). They definitely need some practice at actual tackling -- especially drills that include prying the ball away -- but much of it can be done by touch versions. If they're there, they have a chance of making the tackle even if their tackling's lousy. If their tackling is great but they're not there, it doesn't matter. |
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Post by jrk5150 on Mar 1, 2017 16:14:06 GMT -6
Eh, I don't know if I agree with that. My team sucked at the actual tackle part - they got there, but whiffed.
In some cases, sure, it was the angle. But that isn't what lost us at least one game, probably more like 2 or 3. It was making contact and getting to the ground that did it.
That said, now that I'm thinking as I type this - if I forced them to make two handed contact in the open field, that may have gone a long way to solving the issue. That would force them to be under control at the point of contact.
Hmmmm...
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Post by tiger46 on Mar 4, 2017 10:22:31 GMT -6
I try not to use 2h touch. Or, I try to use it as little as possible. 2h touch is for school recess. The players tend to get into the habit of extending their arms to make the touch. That's great for recess touch football- not so great for youth tackle football. It's useful at the start of a season before players have their gear. But, I'm really more concerned with aggression, alignment and assignment at that early stage. When the gear is on, they have to be at the correct angle and position to make a tackle. It's sort of the same problems we run into whenever we're trying to teach a flag player that is trying to make the transition over to tackle. Their pursuit angles tend to be off target because they're used to stretching and reaching out and pulling a RB's flag. This results in terrible body position and angle in tackle football.
That does not mean every tackle drill has to be live and go to the ground. We use a lot of wrapping up and 'thud' tackling in pursuit drills. Before the pads go on we want the pursuer to watch the BC's near hip and take a proper angle from there. Even if the BC cuts back the pursuer has gained some form of success for us because we run a 'spill & kill' defense. In a game situation, the BC usually has just cut back into the teeth of our defense. Also, as the defenders get better at pursuit, keeping their eyes on the BC's hips makes them less susceptible to cut-backs being successful against them.
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Post by bobgoodman on Mar 5, 2017 13:35:40 GMT -6
I try not to use 2h touch. Or, I try to use it as little as possible. 2h touch is for school recess. The players tend to get into the habit of extending their arms to make the touch. That's great for recess touch football- not so great for youth tackle football. It's useful at the start of a season before players have their gear. But, I'm really more concerned with aggression, alignment and assignment at that early stage. When the gear is on, they have to be at the correct angle and position to make a tackle. It's sort of the same problems we run into whenever we're trying to teach a flag player that is trying to make the transition over to tackle. Their pursuit angles tend to be off target because they're used to stretching and reaching out and pulling a RB's flag. This results in terrible body position and angle in tackle football. That's true if they get too deep into the habit, and it affects both tacklers & ballcarriers. I saw a team that'd played flag for years the first full season after they converted to tackle: the NY Sharks in 2000; they'd played one tackle game in 1999. It was most noticeable by the ballcarriers, who would make their moves an arm's distance away instead of taking the extra step to make the tackler commit. Took them until 2001 to get over that. But that problem arises only if they get a steady diet of it for a long time, as when a team or player converts. My method has been to start a drill touch mode, and then after a few reps change the drill to tackle. The amount of time in tackle out of the total time depends on how much full contact I want. Most of the time with younger kids I want most of the time in tackle. If I were really afraid of injuries in a non-draft league because of a shorter roster than the other teams we'd be playing, then I might increase the percentage in touch. I've never been confident enough in our ability to meaningfully control the contact to attempt "thud" drills. I'm always afraid one kid will pull up & his opponent plow thru, because they're applying the brakes just a split sec. earlier or later. I'd also rather have them in the mindset of either touch or all-out contact, nothing in between, because my intuition says that's more likely to cause bad rxns under game conditions. |
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Post by tiger46 on Mar 6, 2017 10:41:47 GMT -6
You don't have to tell the kids the players to slow down to 'thud' tackle. We don't. You just have to be vigilant and very quick with the whistle- especially when you see a player that is about to take a highlight film hit. It's always a full contact drill to our players. We coaches are the ones that are responsible for tempo and intensity.
You also have to pick your plays and personnel. Ex: Whenever we don't want full contact we don't run our FB up the middle while our Mike is in the drill because that would create a full contact drill situation. Actually, we very rarely run our FB's up the middle in any practice unless they're at FB indy. And, then, there's no tackling. Defenders have tackle dummies and hand-shields.
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Post by bobgoodman on Mar 8, 2017 13:01:23 GMT -6
You don't have to tell the kids the players to slow down to 'thud' tackle. We don't. You just have to be vigilant and very quick with the whistle- especially when you see a player that is about to take a highlight film hit. It's always a full contact drill to our players. We coaches are the ones that are responsible for tempo and intensity. You must be an excellent "musician" with the brass or woodwind, then. I just doubt my rxns & those of the players I've coached would be quick enough for that to work. How'd you pick your MLB? At some point I hope you had some straight-ahead tackling. I've seen many kids avoid the straight-on contact to then tackle from behind. One was even dangerous like that, using a kind of judo-throw technique -- and he was by no means a little guy compared to the others, in fact bigger than most of the team! I haven't seen this in players middle-school age, but if some were just taking the game up then, I'd expect to see some. |
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Post by tiger46 on Mar 8, 2017 14:48:11 GMT -6
Our starting Mikes are often our starting FBs- not this past season, however. All players go through aggression drills. The Mikes and FB types will make themselves known. Both positions have to be of decent size and very aggressive. Our Mikes are trained to attack and stuff any RB or lead blocker that tries to go through any gap between their TEs. Our FBs are DCWT trained FB's. The collisions between those two types of players are very violent and something that should be limited and tightly controlled. We do train head up, straight ahead tackling. Coach the tackling progression in reverse; much the same as many youth coaches advocate.
Rough outline of our Progressive Splatter Tackle Drill:
Tackle dummies behind the Feet of the player holding the football.
1. Fit the tackler onto the BC 2. Form 3. Explode into the tackle 4. Back the tackler off one step; then two steps; then three steps.
Move the BC one step away from the tackle dummy; then two steps away; then three steps away. The tackler has to start driving his feet to knock the BC onto the dummies. Never add on any progression until the players are proficient at the previous progression.
We use other tackle drills to enforce it. Some are more advanced. Others are quite simple. In fact, allplayers start their season on their knees, without pads, hitting tackle dummies regardless of their age or how long they've been with our organization.
All players must demonstrate the proper way to make a tackle at any time that any coach asks them. We ask at random times, even during games on the sidelines in some cases. If they fail they don't get to go into the game on defense. I've even instructed some of them to practice tackles on any of their older siblings and/or dads at home.
As to tackling form(s), we mainly use two head-on tackling forms. We use a lot of Bobby Hosea's methods. We don't 'buzz' our feet on approach as he teaches. We use a widened duck step for greater speed & stability for youth players(JMO). We don't dive into a tackle. No foot dragging after contact, either. Our players feet are always firmly planted into the ground and driving into their targets. And, we also use rugby style tackles and leg tackles.
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