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Post by NC1974 on Jan 16, 2017 22:06:54 GMT -6
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Post by silkyice on Jan 17, 2017 7:58:55 GMT -6
Wearout vs Workout
Any fool can design a wearout.
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Post by Chris Clement on Jan 17, 2017 8:34:54 GMT -6
I don't think he's too highly regarded anymore.
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Post by NC1974 on Jan 17, 2017 8:41:37 GMT -6
Well, Now I'm wondering if Radcliffe was involved at all. He is the long time S&C guy there but apparently the new HC brought in someone as well.
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Post by fantom on Jan 17, 2017 10:26:28 GMT -6
I think that this and the Iowa story should be a cautionary tale for coaches who are considering mat drills and boot camp type activities. In both cases, the players affected were mainly young guys, just back from an extended winter break (no bowl game), and participated in workouts designed to show that the program was going to get tougher.
I think that you have to be smarter than that. I'm not against some boot camp stuff- in fact I like them- but you do need to establish a base of conditioning before you get to the really hard stuff.
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Post by 3rdandlong on Jan 17, 2017 10:49:30 GMT -6
I'm curious to know where the long term benefit is when doing something extremely strenuous in the month of January when your first game isn't until August. I am all for hard work in the off season but I do not understand the logic here. How many of you guys have ever lost a game in October and thought to yourself: "We would have won that game if only we would have done more mat drills in January"? I know I've never thought that.
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Post by fantom on Jan 17, 2017 11:01:55 GMT -6
I'm curious to know where the long term benefit is when doing something extremely strenuous in the month of January when your first game isn't until August. I am all for hard work in the off season but I do not understand the logic here. How many of you guys have ever lost a game in October and thought to yourself: "We would have won that game if only we would have done more mat drills in January"? I know I've never thought that. Physically, there are no benefits whatsoever. I think that the idea is to send a message that being "soft" isn't going to cut it.
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Post by NC1974 on Jan 17, 2017 11:50:37 GMT -6
I think that this and the Iowa story should be a cautionary tale for coaches who are considering mat drills and boot camp type activities. In both cases, the players affected were mainly young guys, just back from an extended winter break (no bowl game), and participated in workouts designed to show that the program was going to get tougher. I think that you have to be smarter than that. I'm not against some boot camp stuff- in fact I like them- but you do need to establish a base of conditioning before you get to the really hard stuff. I completely agree. I think this is even more true with high school kids who are minors. If I were in charge of a program, I would want to be able to demonstrate to parents, lawyers, etc, that we safely ramp up our intensity in the weight room through periodization and careful planning.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2017 11:56:34 GMT -6
I'm curious to know where the long term benefit is when doing something extremely strenuous in the month of January when your first game isn't until August. I am all for hard work in the off season but I do not understand the logic here. How many of you guys have ever lost a game in October and thought to yourself: "We would have won that game if only we would have done more mat drills in January"? I know I've never thought that. Physically, there are no benefits whatsoever. I think that the idea is to send a message that being "soft" isn't going to cut it. I wonder how well that message is resonating now... A few years ago I coached against a team whose new HC had been canned 2 weeks into the season over something like this. He took his entire team into the non-AC equipped locker room after a loss, shut the door in the August heat, and made them do pushups and burpees for an hour and a half. Several players went to the hospital afterwards. He was fired the next day for abuse. They got the volleyball coach, a 24 year old woman who knew nothing about football, to step in as HC for the rest of the season.
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Post by coachfloyd on Jan 17, 2017 11:59:42 GMT -6
There are so many things you can do that suck that don't require hospitalization.
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Post by bignose on Jan 17, 2017 12:08:46 GMT -6
You've got to wonder how much of this is the new staff going overboard in an attempt to "change the culture?" And you've also got to wonder whether this is designed to run off some kids and free up some scholarships for the new staff?
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Post by coachcb on Jan 17, 2017 12:10:40 GMT -6
It takes a lot to induce rhabdo, even in untrained populations. And, rhabdo can lead to permanent kidney damage.
This kind of stuff drives me insane given the amount of material and research out there that details proper off-season training. These idiots pull something out of their a-- and people end up hurt.Push ups and sit ups for an hour straight? Seriously? How is that going to produce a better football player?
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Post by coachfloyd on Jan 17, 2017 12:23:53 GMT -6
Push ups and sit ups for an hour straight? Seriously? How is that going to produce a better football player? possibly if that kid quits and they give the scholarship to someone else.
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Post by silkyice on Jan 17, 2017 13:06:51 GMT -6
Push ups and sit ups for an hour straight? Seriously? How is that going to produce a better football player? possibly if that kid quits and they give the scholarship to someone else. LOL. And when your best players quit, then what? And I am pretty sure that you were joking/serious, so I am not attacking you. Just making a point that I think you would also agree with.
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Post by coachfloyd on Jan 17, 2017 13:12:08 GMT -6
possibly if that kid quits and they give the scholarship to someone else. LOL. And when your best players quit, then what? And I am pretty sure that you were joking/serious, so I am not attacking you. Just making a point that I think you would also agree with. Ha. I was. Thats when you get your resume ready.
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Post by coachcb on Jan 17, 2017 14:28:23 GMT -6
The dude shouldn't be getting his resume together, he should be hiring a lawyer. His a-- is going to get sued.
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Post by fshamrock on Jan 17, 2017 14:46:52 GMT -6
I'm not a S/C guru, so it's not a huge deal, but I had never even heard of Rhabdo until the crossfit craze began.
At what point did somebody start thinking that doing push-ups and up-downs for a hour was going to be a benefit to somebody? I was in basic training about 15 years ago, and I don't remember doing that much then either, in fact the physical aspect of basic training is pretty limited, remember most kids in basic training are just out of high school and big percentage of them aren't natural athletes and have never really done any exercising before, it can't get too crazy. Sure the special forces guys are doing a bunch of insane stuff, but they are typically physically gifted, there is a vetting process involved, if you couldn't already run and swim a long way you never get to start training for that stuff to begin with. So somehow the crazy chit that they do gets transmorphed into some kind of tribal rite of passage toughness workout (xtreme!) for housewives and dentists to do so they can say they are super fit (to the xtreme!!) and finally feel superior to the guys who benched a squatted a lot in high school ("whatever man how much can you overhead squat standing on a swiss ball? huh big guy?..I did 115 yesterday..bryce says that i'm really developing and I should sign up for another 3 months") and somehow that crap bleeds over into the actual development of real athletes at the highest levels of college football?
for shame
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Post by silkyice on Jan 17, 2017 14:53:01 GMT -6
I'm not a S/C guru, so it's not a huge deal, but I had never even heard of Rhabdo until the crossfit craze began. At what point did somebody start thinking that doing push-ups and up-downs for a hour was going to be a benefit to somebody? I was in basic training about 15 years ago, and I don't remember doing that much then either, in fact the physical aspect of basic training is pretty limited, remember most kids in basic training are just out of high school and big percentage of them aren't natural athletes and have never really done any exercising before, it can't get too crazy. Sure the special forces guys are doing a bunch of insane stuff, but they are typically physically gifted, there is a vetting process involved, if you couldn't already run and swim a long way you never get to start training for that stuff to begin with. So somehow the crazy chit that they do gets transmorphed into some kind of tribal rite of passage toughness workout (xtreme!) for housewives and dentists to do so they can say they are super fit (to the xtreme!!) and finally feel superior to the guys who benched a squatted a lot in high school ("whatever man how much can you overhead squat standing on a swiss ball? huh big guy?..I did 115 yesterday..bryce says that i'm really developing and I should sign up for another 3 months") and somehow that crap bleeds over into the actual development of real athletes at the highest levels of college football? for shame BAM! Where is the LOVE IT button. Great post!
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Post by coachcb on Jan 17, 2017 15:15:38 GMT -6
I'm not a S/C guru, so it's not a huge deal, but I had never even heard of Rhabdo until the crossfit craze began. At what point did somebody start thinking that doing push-ups and up-downs for a hour was going to be a benefit to somebody? I was in basic training about 15 years ago, and I don't remember doing that much then either, in fact the physical aspect of basic training is pretty limited, remember most kids in basic training are just out of high school and big percentage of them aren't natural athletes and have never really done any exercising before, it can't get too crazy. Sure the special forces guys are doing a bunch of insane stuff, but they are typically physically gifted, there is a vetting process involved, if you couldn't already run and swim a long way you never get to start training for that stuff to begin with. So somehow the crazy chit that they do gets transmorphed into some kind of tribal rite of passage toughness workout (xtreme!) for housewives and dentists to do so they can say they are super fit (to the xtreme!!) and finally feel superior to the guys who benched a squatted a lot in high school ("whatever man how much can you overhead squat standing on a swiss ball? huh big guy?..I did 115 yesterday..bryce says that i'm really developing and I should sign up for another 3 months") and somehow that crap bleeds over into the actual development of real athletes at the highest levels of college football? for shame Hahaha! Yes! Cases of rhabdo popped up before Crossfit but it was due to idiot personal trainers who got the chit sued out of them. I rread about a case where a guy from Planet Fitness had some untrained housewife do 20 sets of 20 reps on the leg press and she lost a kidney. It was actually a BAD thing before Crossfit. Now those people where it as a badge of honor. Crossfit doesn't get sued because people are simply following the "WOD" (posted via the internet, of course..) and there's not really a "trainer" involved. I do all of the S&C for out athletes and it's been a b-tch to educate the kids because of all the boot camp/Crossfit/MMA workouts floating around.
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Post by nicku on Jan 17, 2017 16:01:34 GMT -6
I'm not a S/C guru, so it's not a huge deal, but I had never even heard of Rhabdo until the crossfit craze began. At what point did somebody start thinking that doing push-ups and up-downs for a hour was going to be a benefit to somebody? I was in basic training about 15 years ago, and I don't remember doing that much then either, in fact the physical aspect of basic training is pretty limited, remember most kids in basic training are just out of high school and big percentage of them aren't natural athletes and have never really done any exercising before, it can't get too crazy. Sure the special forces guys are doing a bunch of insane stuff, but they are typically physically gifted, there is a vetting process involved, if you couldn't already run and swim a long way you never get to start training for that stuff to begin with. So somehow the crazy chit that they do gets transmorphed into some kind of tribal rite of passage toughness workout (xtreme!) for housewives and dentists to do so they can say they are super fit (to the xtreme!!) and finally feel superior to the guys who benched a squatted a lot in high school ("whatever man how much can you overhead squat standing on a swiss ball? huh big guy?..I did 115 yesterday..bryce says that i'm really developing and I should sign up for another 3 months") and somehow that crap bleeds over into the actual development of real athletes at the highest levels of college football? for shame I was able to somehow contain my laughter til you named the crossfit instructor "Bryce"
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Post by dytmook on Jan 17, 2017 17:16:47 GMT -6
Our school brought in two cross fit type dudes to work with us...we didn't really want it, but it's a month and one of the guys has been great about working with our plan as well. He's a good dude so it's okay...His partner this year is a prick who probably never played a down of football in his life and he looks like Powder. I can't take him seriously.
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Post by fantom on Jan 17, 2017 17:37:01 GMT -6
I'm not a S/C guru, so it's not a huge deal, but I had never even heard of Rhabdo until the crossfit craze began. At what point did somebody start thinking that doing push-ups and up-downs for a hour was going to be a benefit to somebody? I was in basic training about 15 years ago, and I don't remember doing that much then either, in fact the physical aspect of basic training is pretty limited, remember most kids in basic training are just out of high school and big percentage of them aren't natural athletes and have never really done any exercising before, it can't get too crazy. Sure the special forces guys are doing a bunch of insane stuff, but they are typically physically gifted, there is a vetting process involved, if you couldn't already run and swim a long way you never get to start training for that stuff to begin with. So somehow the crazy chit that they do gets transmorphed into some kind of tribal rite of passage toughness workout (xtreme!) for housewives and dentists to do so they can say they are super fit (to the xtreme!!) and finally feel superior to the guys who benched a squatted a lot in high school ("whatever man how much can you overhead squat standing on a swiss ball? huh big guy?..I did 115 yesterday..bryce says that i'm really developing and I should sign up for another 3 months") and somehow that crap bleeds over into the actual development of real athletes at the highest levels of college football? for shame Despite my disdain for Crossfit I can't blame it for this. This stuff has been going on for years, part of the Junction Boys culture: Make them tough or weed out the "weak". Teams have been doing exaggerated mat drills or basic training stuff for years. They still do but back then and now most didn't take it to this extreme. If they did, nobody outside of the program heard about it and it they did, well, what the hell is rhabdo?
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Post by 53 on Jan 18, 2017 2:07:21 GMT -6
Physically, there are no benefits whatsoever. I think that the idea is to send a message that being "soft" isn't going to cut it. I wonder how well that message is resonating now... A few years ago I coached against a team whose new HC had been canned 2 weeks into the season over something like this. He took his entire team into the non-AC equipped locker room after a loss, shut the door in the August heat, and made them do pushups and burpees for an hour and a half. Several players went to the hospital afterwards. He was fired the next day for abuse. They got the volleyball coach, a 24 year old woman who knew nothing about football, to step in as HC for the rest of the season. If it's the school that I'm thinking, she actually won a few games which was actually pretty impressive considering it might be one of the worse schools to be at in the state.
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Post by groundchuck on Jan 18, 2017 5:17:59 GMT -6
Good thing I can't get Rhabdo walking at 3MPH on the treadmill.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2017 6:15:50 GMT -6
I wonder how well that message is resonating now... A few years ago I coached against a team whose new HC had been canned 2 weeks into the season over something like this. He took his entire team into the non-AC equipped locker room after a loss, shut the door in the August heat, and made them do pushups and burpees for an hour and a half. Several players went to the hospital afterwards. He was fired the next day for abuse. They got the volleyball coach, a 24 year old woman who knew nothing about football, to step in as HC for the rest of the season. If it's the school that I'm thinking, she actually won a few games which was actually pretty impressive considering it might be one of the worse schools to be at in the state. That was the one. They pulled the former HC out of the stands to coach their first game because the guy they'd hired wasn't cleared by the TSSAA. They had a girl starting on the OL, too. It turned out to be their best team in years.
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Post by groundchuck on Jan 18, 2017 10:28:58 GMT -6
I was just talking with one of our wrestling coaches about this. He said it is nothing to have a wrestling practice that is that hard in high school and guys are not going to the hospital. Pushups, sit-ups, bouts of wrestling, then running.
I am wondering how terrible does workout have to be, or how out of shape or dehydrated does an athlete have to be in order to bring on Rhobdo?
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Post by blb on Jan 18, 2017 10:37:58 GMT -6
I was just talking with one of our wrestling coaches about this. He said it is nothing to have a wrestling practice that is that hard in high school and guys are not going to the hospital. Pushups, sit-ups, bouts of wrestling, then running. I am wondering how terrible does workout have to be, or how out of shape or dehydrated does an athlete have to be in order to bring on Rhobdo?
First, some Oregon players have tweeted that the descriptions of the workout in media are inaccurate.
So have to temper speculation.
But some former players commentating on TV-radio are suggesting that since Oregon did not go to a bowl game or have a coaching staff until fairly recently, some of their players may have been sedentary for over a month, thus "out of shape" and not being able to physically handle an intense workout so early in Winter program.
Do not want to blame the victims though. The S&C professional should have considered players' inactivity when designing the session.
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Post by fantom on Jan 18, 2017 11:00:51 GMT -6
I was just talking with one of our wrestling coaches about this. He said it is nothing to have a wrestling practice that is that hard in high school and guys are not going to the hospital. Pushups, sit-ups, bouts of wrestling, then running. I am wondering how terrible does workout have to be, or how out of shape or dehydrated does an athlete have to be in order to bring on Rhobdo?
First, some Oregon players have tweeted that the descriptions of the workout in media are inaccurate.
So have to temper speculation.
But some former players commentating on TV-radio are suggesting that since Oregon did not go to a bowl game or have a coaching staff until fairly recently, some of their players may have been sedentary for over a month, thus "out of shape" and not being able to physically handle an intense workout so early in Winter program.
Do not want to blame the victims though. The S&C professional should have considered players' inactivity when designing the session.
Absolutely. Two of the three Oregon players and most of the Iowa guys were freshmen. They had no idea what was coming. They probably worked out some during the break but not nearly hard enough for what was coming and I doubt that healthy eating was a big part of their holiday "regimen". It wasn't mine, then or now.
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Post by coachcb on Jan 18, 2017 11:29:12 GMT -6
I was just talking with one of our wrestling coaches about this. He said it is nothing to have a wrestling practice that is that hard in high school and guys are not going to the hospital. Pushups, sit-ups, bouts of wrestling, then running. I am wondering how terrible does workout have to be, or how out of shape or dehydrated does an athlete have to be in order to bring on Rhobdo? It really does vary from person to person but you really have to push someone hard to induce rhabdo and you don't have to be dehydrated either. A highly trained athlete can develop rhabdo if the workout involves too much volume, not enough rest time and overall idiocy. I see a lot of wrestling coaches flirt with disaster with their practices. They follow the Dan Gable mantra: "you can only control an athlete's conditioning". They run the kids into the ground and fail to see when they've crossed the point of diminishing returns. I was "weeded out" my sophomore year because I could run 3 miles in less than 20 minutes, do hundreds of push ups and sit-ups but I couldn't execute a take down, an escape, reversal, or a turn.
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Post by **** on Jan 18, 2017 13:34:48 GMT -6
There are so many things you can do that suck that don't require hospitalization. Like netflix and chilling with a 3 or 4. I shudder at the thought.
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