|
|
Post by aceback76 on Jan 16, 2017 16:30:11 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by fshamrock on Jan 17, 2017 10:47:27 GMT -6
not to get into to politics at all
but I was scouting a game between a country white school and a fairly diverse school, so they fire up the anthem before the game and this kid in the band steps out to the 35 yard line and unfurls a full size mexican flag
dude drops to a knee and displays that bad boy during the entire anthem......there was a damn near riot in the stands...classic
|
|
|
|
Post by JVD on Jan 18, 2017 7:10:27 GMT -6
Right after the Kapernick deal we were at home and lining up for the Anthem. As I'm walking down my line of players to get to the back I stop by our QB and say, "So what are we doing? Taking a knee during this or what?" (Complete sarcasm)
QB Kind of looks down and says, "Coach....my dad said he would literally come down on the field and murder me in front of all these people if I did that."
I replied with a smile and, "I like your dad." Continued to the back of the line.
|
|
|
|
Post by newhope on Jan 20, 2017 9:13:10 GMT -6
There is this slight little thing called freedom of expression--you know, that people fought and died for. I don't have to agree with your not standing for the anthem, but it's your right. For years I have made it a practice to keep my team away from the field until after the anthem is played--eliminated the problem of one of them being a dumb azz during the anthem. At some places, you have to let your captains out before the anthem is played. I handled that by telling them that as captains, they were not representing themselves, but the entire team. As such, they would have to stand for the anthem and if that was going to be a problem for them personally, then they were not to go out until the rest of the team did.
|
|
|
|
Post by JVD on Jan 20, 2017 9:54:03 GMT -6
Yup.
The team is not representing themselves. They will stand. Not an option.
|
|
|
|
Post by newhope on Jan 21, 2017 14:32:49 GMT -6
Yup. The team is not representing themselves. They will stand. Not an option. And, IMO, you're inviting trouble in order to support your personal beliefs and it's a battle you won't win if someone decides to test you on it. Are you also going to force them to pray? |
|
|
|
Post by groundchuck on Jan 21, 2017 19:50:11 GMT -6
When you kneel you're making it about YOU and not your TEAM. You're there to play a game not make a political statement. If I had players who started doing that I think I'd keep the whole team in the locker room until the anthem was over and then bring them out.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2017 20:13:13 GMT -6
I tell our players that they are representatives of our school and our program, what they do doesn't reflect solely on them. They will stand for the anthem or they will sit for the game. I noticed one of my JV players at the first game of the season put his hands in his pockets and sit down, draw attention to himself to show what he was doing. The kid wasn't making a political statement, he's just a jackass and was trying to be funny. I walked across the track, pointed and hollered at him to "get up and show respect". He got plenty of attention but not the kind he wanted. He sat the next game. Their freedom of expression happens on their own time. When they're representing the program they will behave as we instruct them or they will play somewhere else.
|
|
|
|
Post by shocktroop34 on Jan 21, 2017 21:14:01 GMT -6
I tell our players that they are representatives of our school and our program, what they do doesn't reflect solely on them. They will stand for the anthem or they will sit for the game. I noticed one of my JV players at the first game of the season put his hands in his pockets and sit down, draw attention to himself to show what he was doing. The kid wasn't making a political statement, he's just a jackass and was trying to be funny. I walked across the track, pointed and hollered at him to "get up and show respect". He got plenty of attention but not the kind he wanted. He sat the next game. Their freedom of expression happens on their own time. When they're representing the program they will behave as we instruct them or they will play somewhere else. So you basically chose to infringe on his constitutional rights. Secondly, that article is over a year old, and I'm not sure what the purpose of bringing it up now serves aceback76 , other than to fan the flames of political rhetoric, during an already divisive time in our country, on a football board. This problem occurs when football collides with politics, or anything else outside of the game. If the kid was a jackass, you should have seen it coming and addressed it prior to the game, instead of teaching a misplaced lesson on civil rights. Freedom of expression has no boundaries. As a former Marine, I shed blood, sweat, and tears for people to say, what they want to say, when they want to say it. That principle, alone, is the difference between us and our enemies. Democracy vs. everybody else. I personally stand for the pledge every morning. I stand at attention for the national anthem. I pay my taxes, and as an 0331 (Machine Gunner) I appreciate the right to bear arms (I can still shoot the wings off a gnat). If I stand alone on this, well it won't be the first time I stood alone. But I won't stand idle and make it seem like it is okay to suppress certain alienable rights, especially in young people who may not know the full weight of their actions regarding this matter. |
|
|
|
Post by shocktroop34 on Jan 21, 2017 21:15:57 GMT -6
There is this slight little thing called freedom of expression--you know, that people fought and died for. I don't have to agree with your not standing for the anthem, but it's your right. For years I have made it a practice to keep my team away from the field until after the anthem is played--eliminated the problem of one of them being a dumb azz during the anthem. At some places, you have to let your captains out before the anthem is played. I handled that by telling them that as captains, they were not representing themselves, but the entire team. As such, they would have to stand for the anthem and if that was going to be a problem for them personally, then they were not to go out until the rest of the team did. This is how you handle it. Well done. |
|
|
|
Post by Chris Clement on Jan 21, 2017 23:05:22 GMT -6
[sips his bombass tea]
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2017 0:07:12 GMT -6
I tell our players that they are representatives of our school and our program, what they do doesn't reflect solely on them. They will stand for the anthem or they will sit for the game. I noticed one of my JV players at the first game of the season put his hands in his pockets and sit down, draw attention to himself to show what he was doing. The kid wasn't making a political statement, he's just a jackass and was trying to be funny. I walked across the track, pointed and hollered at him to "get up and show respect". He got plenty of attention but not the kind he wanted. He sat the next game. Their freedom of expression happens on their own time. When they're representing the program they will behave as we instruct them or they will play somewhere else. So you basically chose to infringe on his constitutional rights. Secondly, that article is over a year old, and I'm not sure what the purpose of bringing it up now serves aceback76 , other than to fan the flames of political rhetoric, during an already divisive time in our country, on a football board. This problem occurs when football collides with politics, or anything else outside of the game. If the kid was a jackass, you should have seen it coming and addressed it prior to the game, instead of teaching a misplaced lesson on civil rights. Freedom of expression has no boundaries. As a former Marine, I shed blood, sweat, and tears for people to say, what they want to say, when they want to say it. That principle, alone, is the difference between us and our enemies. Democracy vs. everybody else. I personally stand for the pledge every morning. I stand at attention for the national anthem. I pay my taxes, and as an 0331 (Machine Gunner) I appreciate the right to bear arms (I can still shoot the wings off a gnat). If I stand alone on this, well it won't be the first time I stood alone. But I won't stand idle and make it seem like it is okay to suppress certain alienable rights, especially in young people who may not know the full weight of their actions regarding this matter. The kid goes to a private school. He doesn't like the rules he and his parents can take their money and go elsewhere. I did see it coming which is why I saw him in the stands. It wasn't a lesson in civil rights, it was a lesson in following the rules that he'd already been told of ahead of time. I infringed on his constitutional rights? Freedom of expression has no boundaries? Wow... |
|
|
|
Post by shocktroop34 on Jan 22, 2017 11:11:51 GMT -6
So you basically chose to infringe on his constitutional rights. Secondly, that article is over a year old, and I'm not sure what the purpose of bringing it up now serves aceback76 , other than to fan the flames of political rhetoric, during an already divisive time in our country, on a football board. This problem occurs when football collides with politics, or anything else outside of the game. If the kid was a jackass, you should have seen it coming and addressed it prior to the game, instead of teaching a misplaced lesson on civil rights. Freedom of expression has no boundaries. As a former Marine, I shed blood, sweat, and tears for people to say, what they want to say, when they want to say it. That principle, alone, is the difference between us and our enemies. Democracy vs. everybody else. I personally stand for the pledge every morning. I stand at attention for the national anthem. I pay my taxes, and as an 0331 (Machine Gunner) I appreciate the right to bear arms (I can still shoot the wings off a gnat). If I stand alone on this, well it won't be the first time I stood alone. But I won't stand idle and make it seem like it is okay to suppress certain alienable rights, especially in young people who may not know the full weight of their actions regarding this matter. The kid goes to a private school. He doesn't like the rules he and his parents can take their money and go elsewhere. I did see it coming which is why I saw him in the stands. It wasn't a lesson in civil rights, it was a lesson in following the rules that he'd already been told of ahead of time. I infringed on his constitutional rights? Freedom of expression has no boundaries? Wow... Not sure I see or understand the correlation between whether he was at a private school or anywhere else. Every school has rules and policies. Where in the school policy does it specifically state that every child must stand for the pledge? I'm not talking about some vague verbiage that falls under the umbrella of respect or conduct. If this was something you expressed to your team prior to the game, which you didn't stipulate in your OP, then the player didn't respect your wishes. It sounds more like you were more intent on trying to embarrass your player, while making yourself look, and feel, more patriotic. The fact that you shrugged off your accountability/error in this matter is more troubling. "Freedom of expression happens on their own time?" If the patriots of this country only defended our democratic culture "on our own time" we'd all be calling each other Comrade and wearing babushkas. However, most of us who served understand that we did if for everyone, regardless of their personal beliefs. And the whole point is that you are still permitted to have personal beliefs. This is the message you failed to get across to your player as he sat in the stands. One day that young man is going to grow into a man, hopefully a mature one. If and when he does, he will see that he had rights that were violated by a coach that allowed his personal agenda to unprofessionally collide with the game of football. |
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Jan 22, 2017 11:35:50 GMT -6
I tell our players that they are representatives of our school and our program, what they do doesn't reflect solely on them. They will stand for the anthem or they will sit for the game. I noticed one of my JV players at the first game of the season put his hands in his pockets and sit down, draw attention to himself to show what he was doing. The kid wasn't making a political statement, he's just a jackass and was trying to be funny. I walked across the track, pointed and hollered at him to "get up and show respect". He got plenty of attention but not the kind he wanted. He sat the next game. Their freedom of expression happens on their own time. When they're representing the program they will behave as we instruct them or they will play somewhere else. So you basically chose to infringe on his constitutional rights. Secondly, that article is over a year old, and I'm not sure what the purpose of bringing it up now serves aceback76 , other than to fan the flames of political rhetoric, during an already divisive time in our country, on a football board. This problem occurs when football collides with politics, or anything else outside of the game. If the kid was a jackass, you should have seen it coming and addressed it prior to the game, instead of teaching a misplaced lesson on civil rights. Freedom of expression has no boundaries. As a former Marine, I shed blood, sweat, and tears for people to say, what they want to say, when they want to say it. That principle, alone, is the difference between us and our enemies. Democracy vs. everybody else. I personally stand for the pledge every morning. I stand at attention for the national anthem. I pay my taxes, and as an 0331 (Machine Gunner) I appreciate the right to bear arms (I can still shoot the wings off a gnat). If I stand alone on this, well it won't be the first time I stood alone. But I won't stand idle and make it seem like it is okay to suppress certain alienable rights, especially in young people who may not know the full weight of their actions regarding this matter. US Army cavalry scout right here (1996-1999). I agree with 100% of what you said. |
|
|
|
Post by utchuckd on Jan 22, 2017 15:05:29 GMT -6
It's a player's constitutional right to use his freedom of expression to call me a mother {censored}. Is it infringing on those rights if I have a rule against him doing so?
|
|
|
|
Post by YoungDumbCoach on Jan 22, 2017 15:13:41 GMT -6
When does this thread go away? Doesn't seem like football to me.
|
|
|
|
Post by bigcoach39 on Jan 23, 2017 8:35:28 GMT -6
As a Government teacher I explain to my students that they do not necessarily get to enjoy all of the rights until they are adults. Teenagers have rules to abide by in school and hopefully at home, therefore they do not get full access to freedom of expression etc. until a later point in their lives.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Jan 23, 2017 9:07:05 GMT -6
When you kneel you're making it about YOU and not your TEAM. You're there to play a game not make a political statement. If I had players who started doing that I think I'd keep the whole team in the locker room until the anthem was over and then bring them out. This. People have the right to express their beliefs but there's a time and a place for it. A team sporting event is not that place. You are their to represent your team and your school first. If you can't do that, then you don't belong on the team. People forget that they have many rights in this country but there are reality based consequences for exercising those rights at times. There is a teacher in a neighboring school that has taken a knee during the National Anthem at various sporting events. This teacher does not have tenure and will probably be let go without cause at the end of the year. |
|
|
|
Post by coachfloyd on Jan 23, 2017 9:15:24 GMT -6
The kid goes to a private school. He doesn't like the rules he and his parents can take their money and go elsewhere. I did see it coming which is why I saw him in the stands. It wasn't a lesson in civil rights, it was a lesson in following the rules that he'd already been told of ahead of time. I infringed on his constitutional rights? Freedom of expression has no boundaries? Wow... Not sure I see or understand the correlation between whether he was at a private school or anywhere else. Every school has rules and policies. Where in the school policy does it specifically state that every child must stand for the pledge? I'm not talking about some vague verbiage that falls under the umbrella of respect or conduct. If this was something you expressed to your team prior to the game, which you didn't stipulate in your OP, then the player didn't respect your wishes. It sounds more like you were more intent on trying to embarrass your player, while making yourself look, and feel, more patriotic. The fact that you shrugged off your accountability/error in this matter is more troubling. "Freedom of expression happens on their own time?" If the patriots of this country only defended our democratic culture "on our own time" we'd all be calling each other Comrade and wearing babushkas. However, most of us who served understand that we did if for everyone, regardless of their personal beliefs. And the whole point is that you are still permitted to have personal beliefs. This is the message you failed to get across to your player as he sat in the stands. One day that young man is going to grow into a man, hopefully a mature one. If and when he does, he will see that he had rights that were violated by a coach that allowed his personal agenda to unprofessionally collide with the game of football. You are corect. The problem is what happens when the people in charge decided what you want to say or express should be silenced or suppressed. I absolutely hate the guys taking a knee. I think its stupid. Its especially stupid in the NFL where they are protesting a country that allows them to be millionaires. But next time it might be something I believe in. |
|
|
|
Post by YoungDumbCoach on Jan 23, 2017 9:25:37 GMT -6
What would you do if the whole team decided they wanted to kneel? Personally, if my whole team decided that they wanted to kneel, and had an educated opinion on why, I would allow it.
|
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Jan 23, 2017 9:30:19 GMT -6
When does this thread go away? Doesn't seem like football to me. If you don't think that issues like this are important to a coach then you have a lot to learn about this business. |
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Jan 23, 2017 9:49:36 GMT -6
This has nothing to do with the issue being protested. Using a public event where you are representing a team, school, and community is not appropriate. I may not be able to kick a kid off of the team for it but you can bet that I will bench them for the rest of the season.
I would have the utmost respect for the kids if they formed a peaceful protest where they weren't wearing school colors.
|
|
|
|
Post by YoungDumbCoach on Jan 23, 2017 11:56:04 GMT -6
When does this thread go away? Doesn't seem like football to me. If you don't think that issues like this are important to a coach then you have a lot to learn about this business. I said this when the thread was diverging into politics. I understand the importance of teaching students right and wrong. I also felt that at the time this thread was verging on becoming a shouting match. I meant no disrespect by my comment, and honestly as the thread continues I am regretting my comment. But, As a history major I also see the benefit of peaceful protest, therefore I do not understand the problem we have with a student or group of students kneeling. To me if they can articulate why they are kneeling, they not only should have the right to, but I would encourage it. I call that civic leadership. I wonder if any of you teachers have discussed or are allowed to discuss the issues that are being protested by pro athletes. |
|
|
|
Post by shocktroop34 on Jan 23, 2017 13:39:23 GMT -6
If you don't think that issues like this are important to a coach then you have a lot to learn about this business. I said this when the thread was diverging into politics. I understand the importance of teaching students right and wrong. I also felt that at the time this thread was verging on becoming a shouting match. I meant no disrespect by my comment, and honestly as the thread continues I am regretting my comment. But, As a history major I also see the benefit of peaceful protest, therefore I do not understand the problem we have with a student or group of students kneeling. To me if they can articulate why they are kneeling, they not only should have the right to, but I would encourage it. I call that civic leadership. I wonder if any of you teachers have discussed or are allowed to discuss the issues that are being protested by pro athletes. No disrespect taken. I understood what you meant when you wrote it. I don't want to speak for fantom, but I think what he is alluding to is that our profession as coaches has "layers" to it. Sometimes those layers take a while to unfold, and at the root of one problem, you can often find a solution to another. But you just can't look at the top layer. As ugly as it may be sometimes, you have to look at all of it.
Just as an example, our school went through this issue this past season. I was an asst. for a D-III program and simply didn't think our kids paid enough attention to even act on the matter. I was wrong. We heard whispers of a protest and the HC got out in front of it.
Being glad I was no longer a HC anymore, I was very interested to see how the HC would handle it. He spoke on it a few times with the team during the week, and even once before we took the field.
His rationale was that if you wanted to kneel, then meet with him, and explain why. As long as it was clear reasoning, he would support it. There were about 12 players that choose to kneel. And it wasn't that big of deal in our program.
My son plays for the team. He stood in the middle of the group that knelt down.
I had not even talked to him about such matters, but I asked him after the game why he stood. He said, 'dad that's not my style, but I wanted the group to know that I stand with them in support.'
The morale of the story, for me at least, was that sometimes the life-lessons that kids come up with on their own, can be more meaningful than the ones that are forced upon them.
|
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Jan 23, 2017 14:07:59 GMT -6
If you don't think that issues like this are important to a coach then you have a lot to learn about this business. I said this when the thread was diverging into politics. I understand the importance of teaching students right and wrong. I also felt that at the time this thread was verging on becoming a shouting match. I meant no disrespect by my comment, and honestly as the thread continues I am regretting my comment. But, As a history major I also see the benefit of peaceful protest, therefore I do not understand the problem we have with a student or group of students kneeling. To me if they can articulate why they are kneeling, they not only should have the right to, but I would encourage it. I call that civic leadership. I wonder if any of you teachers have discussed or are allowed to discuss the issues that are being protested by pro athletes. There's no way that this topic wouldn't diverge into politics. There have been and will be others like it. Sometimes they get to the point that they have to be locked but mostly they stay where they need to be- how they affect us as coaches. Shouting matches happen too, here and in real life. They're not always bad. It's good to clear the air sometimes. When it gets to the "So's your mama" point we lock it. |
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Jan 23, 2017 15:00:47 GMT -6
Okay, let's say that there's a horrific shooting in the community and the murderer gets off on a technicality. Yes, there's a serious injustice involved but it would still be inappropriate for the players to protest at the game. It wouldn't matter if they wanted to kneel during the National Anthem, wear black gloves, etc..etc.. In this situation, their opinion is representative of the entirety of the community (at least you'd hope so..) but, a football game is NOT an appropriate venue for a protest. It is using the public exposure of the event as a soap box. It's no different than the obnoxious celebrities that use acceptance speeches to preach politics.
Now, it's a different story if they want to show support for the families of the victim(s) in the situation in some manner, such as writing the initials of the victim(s) on athletic tape and wearing it. That is a sincere gesture of empathy without trying to influence some kind of outcome.
|
|
|
|
Post by murdr on Jan 28, 2017 15:17:02 GMT -6
The kids have a right to kneel. I have the right to bench them.
|
|
