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Post by coachpech on Dec 22, 2016 7:23:26 GMT -6
In this week's Esquire Magazine there's an article about a kid who played ball just down the road from where we're at. If you have a chance to pick up the Magazine I promise you it's worth the read. Here's the link from the local news station that interviewed his Mom about the article being featured this week. Zack didn't play past high school and to hear how bad is CTE was is pretty darn scary. If someone happens to find the digital view of the article in Esquire could you please share it in this thread? Thanks! www.kcci.com/article/indianola-mans-struggle-with-cte-hits-national-newsstands/8526309
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Post by spos21ram on Dec 22, 2016 8:18:19 GMT -6
I don't like articles like this because parents just don't know everything their child has been through or done. He could have been in fights where he was knocked unconscious, done stupid things with friends where he banged his head, etc.
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Post by blb on Dec 22, 2016 8:25:25 GMT -6
I don't like articles like this because parents just don't know everything their child has been through or done. He could have been in fights where he was knocked unconscious, done stupid things with friends where he banged his head, etc.
...gotten beaned with a baseball (had a kid who was concussed that way)...
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Post by coachpech on Dec 22, 2016 8:35:18 GMT -6
I don't like articles like this because parents just don't know everything their child has been through or done. He could have been in fights where he was knocked unconscious, done stupid things with friends where he banged his head, etc. The kid was only 24 years old. I completely agree if he were 40 years old but honestly and had spent a lot of time away from Mom and Dad. How many times have your kids gotten into a fight where you didn't know it? Or how many times by the age of 24 was your kid hit in the head by a baseball? I think those are both poor excuses. Once you fellas read the Esquire article I think you'll think differently. He journals his way through the entire thing starting at the age of 20 or so when things first started to bother him.
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Post by brophy on Dec 22, 2016 8:42:56 GMT -6
okay... HOW!?Parents are pushing for a bill to enforce medical trainers on athletic teams. All that will do will invoke concussion protocol (maybe) more than it is now. Is that really the problem? 24 year old committed suicide, apparently suffering from serious depression. twitter.com/twatterlesszwww.kcci.com/article/doctor-s-office-confirms-indianola-man-suffered-from-cte/6920425does anyone have a link to where his brain was actually examined to show the TAU stains? I'm all for exploring CTE and football, but you've got to do more than this (IMO). I feel for his parents, but the only thing clear was that the young man was depressed. Whether or not his concussions were the cause is anyone's guess I don't like articles like this because ..... I don't like it because I can't find any facts in any of the articles about the guy. I'm not even discounting the story, it just isn't supported by any facts or data.
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Post by coachdubyah on Dec 22, 2016 8:56:24 GMT -6
I mean this in all seriousness, but I don't understand how our game is under attack, but people will pay $70 to watch UFC fighting on TV. On top of that, more and more people are getting into that sport, but no one says anything about that. I am about to read the article now.
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Post by Chris Clement on Dec 22, 2016 9:00:06 GMT -6
The plural of anecdote is still not data.
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Post by coachcb on Dec 22, 2016 9:07:15 GMT -6
As I have posted many times, I was diagnosed with three concussions in high school and those were just the ones that I actually reported. I had a WHOLE lot more than that... I have dealt with issues from it since then but I don't blame football for it: I blame the equipment and the way we were coached. My helmet fit like crap for three years: the air bladder was continually deflating. And, these were new helmets: they were just put together poorly. We were taught to lead with our face mask when blocking and tackling. When you're head hurt, you just got your "bell rung".
Today's equipment, proper coaching and concussion diagnosis protocols will cut back on these issues significantly.
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Post by brophy on Dec 22, 2016 9:29:40 GMT -6
Today's equipment, proper coaching and concussion diagnosis protocols will cut back on these issues significantly. I agree these all will help. I suppose all this CTE information exposure/overload is good, too, so players can appreciate protecting their most vital organ. What I don't get yet is....I can remember at least 5 vicious hits in my career where I know I was out of it. I doubt I could've told you my name at the time (and I kept playing). I don't know if anyone would've noticed it even under today's protocols because I wasn't knocked out. In addition to those brain gangbangs mentioned, as a lineman, it is the sub-concussive hits that you get endlessly in practice and during a game that are the biggest contributors to CTE / TAU stain damage. Those are not measured. Now in this (article) situation, there is another issue at play from a Devil's Advocate perspective. Does football brain trauma cause abnormal behavior, or are people choosing to play this sport just messed up in the head to begin with? I say that because many of the things that make us (or used to make us) "good football players" was our disregard for healthy behavior (abnormally physically taxing workouts / explosive body work / playing with 'pain' / reinforcing hyper-aggressiveness). From where I sit / experienced, a lot of the things that made me a good football player (which is a stretch due to physical limitations) were the same things that would make you a bad human being in the real world. Maybe its different for quarterbacks and receivers, but for linemen the mentality is quite different. I would argue that this reinforced mentality would ostracize someone for getting help in the real world and taking the correct "real world" behavior. Now I say all that to say this, a 24-year old is very young. He stopped playing ball his junior year, but he had fully bought into the CTE diagnosis and convinced himself that is what he was suffering from [the GQ article from Omalu came out in 2009, which would have been around the time of his senior season]. He joined the Army. I don't know what his military status was, but I assume he did a 4-year stint and was discharged (?). Point being, if his whole self-identity at a teenager is "football player" then no longer can play (going into his senior year), plus an enlistment that may or may not have gone south, there are a lot of perceived social road-bumps (life changing events) that could trigger depressive episodes. You could be well-adjusted socially and emotionally and if physiological changes occur your biochemistry or your brain function (severe head trauma), none of that matters....I get that wholeheartedly. I'm just presenting another side that I'm unsure about because of the lack of evidence in this story. people will pay $70 to watch UFC fighting on TV. On top of that, more and more people are getting into that sport, but no one says anything about that. I get your point, but most MMA isn't strikes to the head, but actual grappling. Even guys that train, very little time is spent on strikes.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2016 10:18:41 GMT -6
I mean this in all seriousness, but I don't understand how our game is under attack, but people will pay $70 to watch UFC fighting on TV. On top of that, more and more people are getting into that sport, but no one says anything about that. I am about to read the article now. There's even youth MMA now. Some of the same kids who aren't allowed to play football for fear of CTE are participating in MMA and getting punched in the face. Our game is under attack because it's a symbol of traditional masculinity and has a much larger following and participation rate than MMA, which allows stories like this to strike nerves with people and get ratings. There are people who hate everything our game stands for and all the attention it gets and they've used this to incite paranoia. There is some stuff to be concerned about. Concussions do need to be taken seriously, which is why we have concussion protocols now, more emphasis on safety, and there are so many efforts to practice effectively with limited contact. To me, those efforts should be applauded. At the end of the day, we can't wrap boys in bubble wrap and park them in front of the Xbox to keep them safe because boys will be boys. Getting rough and playing contact sports is part of that... and a lot of people don't like it.
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Post by silkyice on Dec 22, 2016 10:57:36 GMT -6
The the plural of anecdote is still not data. No one knows what that means, but it is provocative!
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Post by silkyice on Dec 22, 2016 10:58:25 GMT -6
Double post
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Post by silkyice on Dec 22, 2016 10:59:02 GMT -6
The the plural of anecdote is still not data. No one knows what that means, but it is provocative! And I do know what it means, just thought that quote was appropriate there. Lol
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Post by Chris Clement on Dec 22, 2016 11:05:36 GMT -6
The the plural of anecdote is still not data. No one knows what that means, but it is provocative!
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Post by coachcb on Dec 22, 2016 12:30:42 GMT -6
Today's equipment, proper coaching and concussion diagnosis protocols will cut back on these issues significantly. I agree these all will help. I suppose all this CTE information exposure/overload is good, too, so players can appreciate protecting their most vital organ.
What I don't get yet is....I can remember at least 5 vicious hits in my career where I know I was out of it. I doubt I could've told you my name at the time (and I kept playing). I don't know if anyone would've noticed it even under today's protocols because I wasn't knocked out. In addition to those brain gangbangs mentioned, as a lineman, it is the sub-concussive hits that you get endlessly in practice and during a game that are the biggest contributors to CTE / TAU stain damage. Those are not measured.
Now in this (article) situation, there is another issue at play from a Devil's Advocate perspective. Does football brain trauma cause abnormal behavior, or are people choosing to play this sport just messed up in the head to begin with? I say that because many of the things that make us (or used to make us) "good football players" was our disregard for healthy behavior (abnormally physically taxing workouts / explosive body work / playing with 'pain' / reinforcing hyper-aggressiveness). From where I sit / experienced, a lot of the things that made me a good football player (which is a stretch due to physical limitations) were the same things that would make you a bad human being in the real world. Maybe its different for quarterbacks and receivers, but for linemen the mentality is quite different. I would argue that this reinforced mentality would ostracize someone for getting help in the real world and taking the correct "real world" behavior. Mine were all diagnosed a few days after the game. My head had been ringing for months but I knew that my third one would put me out for the rest of the season (we were 6 games in). But, I almost hit two parked cars after a game because my head was buzzing, my balance was shot and I was really out of it. I think we can all agree that it takes a little different sort of cat to enjoy football and excel at the game. People always take about playing "with heart" but it's honestly a matter of being violent and aggressive. How many ridiculously athletic kids have we seen over the years that were terrible football players because they weren't aggressive enough? I on the flip side of the coin, we've all had those undersized, slow kids that were just flat out mean and got the job done.
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Post by morris on Dec 22, 2016 22:56:00 GMT -6
I don't like articles like this because parents just don't know everything their child has been through or done. He could have been in fights where he was knocked unconscious, done stupid things with friends where he banged his head, etc.
...gotten beaned with a baseball (had a kid who was concussed that way)...
Had a student almost lose an eye and can no longer play sports due to a tipped ball hitting him.
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Post by coachstepp on Dec 23, 2016 0:16:38 GMT -6
Abstract from this Mayo Clinic study. Article was released over a week ago: "In this community-based study, varsity high school football players from 1956 to 1970 did not have an increased risk of neurodegenerative diseases compared with athletes engaged in other varsity sports. This was from an era when there was a generally nihilistic view of concussion dangers, less protective equipment, and no prohibition of spearing (head-first tackling). However, the size and strength of players from previous eras may not be comparable with that of current high school athletes."www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(16)30536-5/pdf
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Post by natenator on Dec 23, 2016 6:48:15 GMT -6
For copyright purposes I'm not able to post the entire study so the abstract will have to do... online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/neu.2015.4267"The purpose of this study was to determine whether the effects of cumulative head impacts during a season of high school football produce changes in diffusional kurtosis imaging (DKI) metrics in the absence of clinically diagnosed concussion. Subjects were recruited from a high school football team and were outfitted with the Head Impact Telemetry System (HITS) during all practices and games. Biomechanical head impact exposure metrics were calculated, including: total impacts, summed acceleration, and Risk Weighted Cumulative Exposure (RWE). Twenty-four players completed pre- and post-season magnetic resonance imaging, including DKI; players who experienced clinical concussion were excluded. Fourteen subjects completed pre- and post-season Immediate Post-Concussion Assessment and Cognitive Testing (ImPACT). DKI-derived metrics included mean kurtosis (MK), axial kurtosis (K axial), and radial kurtosis (K radial), and white matter modeling (WMM) parameters included axonal water fraction, tortuosity of the extra-axonal space, extra-axonal diffusivity (De axial and radial), and intra-axonal diffusivity (Da). These metrics were used to determine the total number of abnormal voxels, defined as 2 standard deviations above or below the group mean. Linear regression analysis revealed a statistically significant relationship between RWE combined probability (RWECP) and MK. Secondary analysis of other DKI-derived and WMM metrics demonstrated statistically significant linear relationships with RWECP after covariate adjustment. These results were compared with the results of DTI-derived metrics from the same imaging sessions in this exact same cohort. Several of the DKI-derived scalars (Da, MK, K axial, and K radial) explained more variance, compared with RWECP, suggesting that DKI may be more sensitive to subconcussive head impacts. No significant relationships between DKI-derived metrics and ImPACT measures were found. It is important to note that the pathological implications of these metrics are not well understood. In summary, we demonstrate a single season of high school football can produce DKI measurable changes in the absence of clinically diagnosed concussion."
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Post by coachstepp on Dec 23, 2016 11:37:33 GMT -6
In summary, we demonstrate a single season of high school football can produce DKI measurable changes in the absence of clinically diagnosed concussion." Any way you could explain what this means? I didn't pay close attention in science class.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 23, 2016 11:47:25 GMT -6
In summary, we demonstrate a single season of high school football can produce DKI measurable changes in the absence of clinically diagnosed concussion." Any way you could explain what this means? I didn't pay close attention in science class. The subjects were found to have changes in the brain's physiology even though they did not have any concussions. In other words, hits that didn't cause concussions still affected the physiology of the brain. While concussions get all of the attention, these types of studies are suggesting just routine banging around is a risk. There was another study that found the same in youth football players-- In both studies the researchers were clear to point out that they were not suggesting that such physiological changes had behavioral effects.
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Post by jrk5150 on Dec 23, 2016 12:06:52 GMT -6
And my immediate question is what other groups were measured and/or who their control group was. Did they measure other athletes? Runners, soccer, basketball? Is football unique in this regard? Other contact sports?
And I don't ask that trying to disprove or attack it, I'm just asking the question of whether they are measuring athletes from other sports. What happens if they find that the stride impact of running jostles the head and causes this too? I just never see that discussed in any of these articles. That's a pretty critical element of establishing causation and assessing the risk.
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Post by brophy on Dec 23, 2016 13:42:59 GMT -6
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 23, 2016 14:08:01 GMT -6
Doesn't really apply to the last couple of posts, which reference change in brain physiology without a diagnosed concussion.
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Post by brophy on Dec 23, 2016 14:18:54 GMT -6
It applies to jrk5150
Good luck getting anyone to have a nuanced discussion about subconconcussive hits and how to prevent them without eliminating the helmet
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 23, 2016 14:21:14 GMT -6
It applies to jrk5150 Good luck getting anyone to have a nuanced discussion about subconconcussive hits and how to prevent them without eliminating the helmet I don't think it applies, as he was asking if they ever studied brain structure changes reported following other sports without diagnosed concussions.
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Post by jrk5150 on Dec 23, 2016 14:52:23 GMT -6
No worries, but that is correct - I was referring to the second study cited that was talking about sub-concussive hits.
My point is simply that I have yet to see documented extensive comparisons of football players to other athletes (and non-athletes) when it comes to a lot of these studies specifically about CTE/CTE related issues. I realize that's not necessarily unexpected, since the study of all of this is so new and not very well developed. But that study seems to be pointing at a fundamental change in the brains of football players who are not concussed, and I would think it's CRITICALLY important to compare that to the general population and other sports. It's irresponsible not to.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2016 17:05:38 GMT -6
It applies to jrk5150 Good luck getting anyone to have a nuanced discussion about subconconcussive hits and how to prevent them without eliminating the helmet It's hard to have that on here because we're not neuroscientists. We don't understand exactly how these things work or what impact they have on the brain, but we do know we love this game and value it and all its traditions deeply. Unfortunately, it is what it is. There's been some talk that better mouth pieces may have a bigger impact on absorbing impact than helmets, but that still doesn't stop those subconcussive hits that are shown as the most prevalent danger here by much of the research. However, just eliminating the helmet doesn't necessarily eliminate those, either, as much of the impact of the subconcussive hits appears to be what's transferred from the body to the brain on impact. It would seem that you'd have to eliminate tackling and blocking to truly strip the subconcussive hits from the game and I don't know if too many people currently associated with the game want to turn it into flag football. I suppose that you could keep linemen in the game and still remove some of the subconcussive toll by having OL and DL fit together like wrestlers before the snap rather than firing off across a line of scrimmage and hitting each other, but who wants that? It would be interesting to see a comparison between CTE in rugby and Australian rules football players compared to American football. I do know that it's been well documented in boxers and professional wrestlers to extents that surpass football, but you don't see schools fielding those types of teams.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2016 17:17:15 GMT -6
Now in this (article) situation, there is another issue at play from a Devil's Advocate perspective. Does football brain trauma cause abnormal behavior, or are people choosing to play this sport just messed up in the head to begin with? I say that because many of the things that make us (or used to make us) "good football players" was our disregard for healthy behavior (abnormally physically taxing workouts / explosive body work / playing with 'pain' / reinforcing hyper-aggressiveness). From where I sit / experienced, a lot of the things that made me a good football player (which is a stretch due to physical limitations) were the same things that would make you a bad human being in the real world. Maybe its different for quarterbacks and receivers, but for linemen the mentality is quite different. I would argue that this reinforced mentality would ostracize someone for getting help in the real world and taking the correct "real world" behavior. Now I say all that to say this, a 24-year old is very young. He stopped playing ball his junior year, but he had fully bought into the CTE diagnosis and convinced himself that is what he was suffering from [the GQ article from Omalu came out in 2009, which would have been around the time of his senior season]. He joined the Army. I don't know what his military status was, but I assume he did a 4-year stint and was discharged (?). Point being, if his whole self-identity at a teenager is "football player" then no longer can play (going into his senior year), plus an enlistment that may or may not have gone south, there are a lot of perceived social road-bumps (life changing events) that could trigger depressive episodes. You could be well-adjusted socially and emotionally and if physiological changes occur your biochemistry or your brain function (severe head trauma), none of that matters....I get that wholeheartedly. I'm just presenting another side that I'm unsure about because of the lack of evidence in this story. I don't know if the things that make us "good football players" are necessarily things we should consider "messed up in the head" or stuff we should accept is a common, normal part of being a healthy young male which, if not somehow suppressed or channeled properly, can lead to bad behavior. A lot of people would fault our game for encouraging such things, but how many boys who find purpose and direction for their lives via football would go down far darker paths without it? As for this young man... as you said, there are a ton of red flags there that have nothing to do with his football experience. Military service has been linked to far more negative outcomes than playing HS football, which, CTE or not, has been associated with slightly better outcomes in some studies and is typically found to be, at worst, neutral in others. Meanwhile, along with PTSD, a stint in the Army or Marines also increases the likelihood for substance abuse, homelessness, depression, etc. later in life. I don't know what type of experience he had in the Army, but pointing the finger at football as the thing that damaged his psyche with military experience right there is a bit disingenuous. From the way it's described, his deep paranoia of having CTE as a young man may have, itself, been an early sign of underlying mental problems that were going to emerge regardless.
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viking
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Post by viking on Jan 2, 2017 13:21:15 GMT -6
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Post by coachpech on Jan 10, 2017 18:53:47 GMT -6
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