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Post by natenator on Dec 19, 2016 17:38:20 GMT -6
So Christian McCaffrey and Leonard Fournette have decided to opt out of their bowl games to begin prep for the draft and avoid unnecessary injury risk.
As coaches, what do you think about this? What kind of message, if any, does this send to HS players?
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Post by spos21ram on Dec 19, 2016 18:01:47 GMT -6
I can almost guarantee they had their HC's blessing. I'm a huge CFB fan, my initial reaction questioned their decision, but after about a minute of thought I couldn't help to agree with their decision.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 18:08:56 GMT -6
So Christian McCaffrey and Leonard Fournette have decided to opt out of their bowl games to begin prep for the draft and avoid unnecessary injury risk. As coaches, what do you think about this? What kind of message, if any, does this send to HS players? It makes sense, since they have millions of dollars on the line in the draft, but I think it may set a bad precedent and is a selfish move towards their teammates who wanted to win those bowls. I don't know if this will happen that much in HS ball, though, because colleges are going to be pretty suspicious of a player who "opts out" of their HS postseason. There are already a lot of elite players who "shut it down" and coast once their team is up by a couple of scores because they want to avoid injury.
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Post by spos21ram on Dec 19, 2016 18:12:16 GMT -6
Lets be honest here. 80% of these bowls have no right to be called a "post season" game. If they were in the CFB playoff or the Rose Bowl then I wouldn't agree with their decision. If they were playing in the playoffs I am pretty confident that they'd be playing.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 18:38:50 GMT -6
Lets be honest here. 80% of these bowls have no right to be called a "post season" game. If they were in the CFB playoff or the Rose Bowl then I wouldn't agree with their decision. If they were playing in the playoffs I am pretty confident that they'd be playing. You're right about most of these bowls being pointless. There are literally more bowl slots available than there are teams with winning records, so 5-7 teams are making it every year now. This is just the start. You're going to see a lot of the elite players start "opting out" of bowls now, including the Rose Bowl, and probably even the playoffs. Just wait...
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Post by dytmook on Dec 19, 2016 18:46:16 GMT -6
I don't like it because I like to see the best play, but I understand from their perspective.
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Post by lilbuck1103 on Dec 19, 2016 18:54:31 GMT -6
I do get it and I can certainly understand it, and will not question their individual decisions- they have some very good people around them and from what I have read, they are outstanding young men. I have never been faced with a decision that could potentially impact my financial life to the tune of millions of dollars so my view is based on my reality.
My personal struggle with it though is the concept of "finishing what you start." I still believe in the importance of this statement and the impact it has on one's individual life. I know there are many of things that would benefit me individually to do, but these often get lost in what's best for the collective group. Now, many of the things that appear to happen within the landscape of our country have worked away from the concept of finishing what you start and putting your own individual gains behind that of what could perhaps be of benefit to those around us.
Again, I am in no way saying these athletes are wrong or that they should play, I guess I am just worried about our further shift away from the "group" and more to the "best for me" thoughts. I can see this continuing its move into the HS athletics setting when it comes to a student-athlete participating in other sports, etc. if they have a scholarship offer, etc. whether it is in our sport or others. I hope that we don't lose sight of the value added experiences in exchange for what may be waiting for us down the road.
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Post by hsrose on Dec 19, 2016 19:05:27 GMT -6
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Post by 19delta on Dec 19, 2016 19:09:42 GMT -6
So Christian McCaffrey and Leonard Fournette have decided to opt out of their bowl games to begin prep for the draft and avoid unnecessary injury risk. As coaches, what do you think about this? What kind of message, if any, does this send to HS players? Both of those guys have more than paid back any perceived "debt" they owe to their schools. Godspeed to both of them.
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Post by gibbs72 on Dec 19, 2016 19:15:30 GMT -6
I love college football, but with the exception of the CFP, these bowl games are exhibitions. I have a hard time arguing with their decision to opt out of an exhibition game with the NFL millions on the line. Now, for a major bowl like the Rose Bowl or a playoff, that to me is different. As for comparing to HS, I think it's different because the post season for HS is a single elimination playoff and not an exhibition.
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Post by Defcord on Dec 19, 2016 19:19:14 GMT -6
I was talking about this with players today in class.
It feels kind of wrong at first. It seems like this decision is a selfish one and maybe it is. But it's one the kids have the right to make. As long as a kid makes this decision by the book then it's hard to discredit him.
The other side is adminstrators firing coaches prior to the end of a contract or coaches leaving for betters jobs prior to a bowl game.
Our quarterback sent me a screen shot of Ezekiel Elliot's tweet that said something about young kids skipping bowl games and that he would give anything to play with his brothers in scarlet and gray, yet he forwent his entire senior season, 12+ supposed opportunities he "would have done anything for.
Personal choice is just that...a choice.
The plus side is the programs where this occurs have a month long opportunity to prepare the next guy in line for next season.
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Post by blitzology on Dec 19, 2016 19:35:09 GMT -6
The ramifications are going to be interesting to keep an eye on. It is doubtful the NFL will alter their draft grade on either guy because they didn't play in the bowl game. Even if NFL teams don't like it, both McCaffrey and Fournette are too high profile and talented to slip very far in the draft. No negative outcome from the NFL will open the door for other college players to sit out of bowl games.
That puts the ball in the NCAA's court and specifically in the hands of the teams in the Power 5 conferences. TV deals and Bowl tie-ins represent millions of dollars per school. If the bowls have fewer high profile players actually playing there is less money to be made and smaller pay outs to the schools.
Does the power 5 push for an expanded playoff? If a team is still playing for a possible National Title, a player won't sit for the draft. If that was the context and a player did sit out, I think the NFL teams would view that behavior as very unfavorable.
Do teams put bowl game participation language in a National Letter of Intent? You are signing on to play the season and post-season contests.
Do teams invest in bowl insurance policies for players? If the player is hurt, the university will be providing this sizable insurance coverage on you. Players have taken out these policies for themselves in the past.
Conferences collect all the bowl money for every team in the conference and split it equally. Do we see a change where teams that have high profile players sit out get punished by their league. LSU for example would get a smaller bowl cut because Fournette didn't play. The money that LSU gives up would be split up into slightly bigger shares for the other teams in the SEC. Again probably unlikely but who knows. If teams think a school is messing with their revenue stream who knows how they will respond.
No matter what happens, teams will not let the cash cow that is the bowl season die. Now that guys like McCaffrey and Fournette have sat out others will follow suit. Teams will be too late to deal with the issue this bowl season but they will address it going forward. With millions of dollars on the line teams will find a way to get their top talent to play.
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Post by 53 on Dec 19, 2016 19:42:02 GMT -6
It's a business, and they're a making business decision. I personally don't have a problem with it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 19:48:23 GMT -6
An expanded playoff would make sense. Personally, it would be sensible to cut the regular season back to 11 games, then do a 4 round playoff with the conference champions all getting admitted, but the rest of the bowls won't like that, either.
Even if players skip the playoff, the ramifications from the NFL might not be that severe because, as was mentioned, these guys are just too talented and too good to slip too far.
There is the possibility both these guys fall to the late first round due to being RBs, a disposable commodity in today's NFL--just look at how DeMarco Murray's now with his 3rd team in 3 years after leading the league in rushing 2 years ago (and McCaffrey is not the prototypical NFL RB, anyway). Both had some injury concerns this year, too. If it's said that skipping their bowl game hurt them in the draft and cost them a few hundred thousand dollars or even millions, that could help stem the tide.
There's not really a whole lot the NCAA can do here to stop this, though. These guys may call it "opting out" but what they really did was quit their team to prepare for the NFL draft. That's it in a nutshell. The bowl system is stupid, and it's understandable why they'd want to preserve their bodies, but in the end, that's what they did. The NCAA can't stop kids from quitting when there's that much money at stake. They could discourage it by maybe changing the rules to make them repay their scholarships or altering their rules to start paying athletes at the end of the season, but if a kid quits, he quits.
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Post by 44dlcoach on Dec 19, 2016 20:18:34 GMT -6
I hope that anybody upset with the players is equally upset with Tom Herman or any other coaches who leave between the end of the regular season and the bowl game. I imagine that most coaches feel the way the guys who have responded here do, these guys did what they were supposed to do for their teams this season, if they don't put on the line in the Sun Bowl, or whatever, it's not the end of the world.
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Post by carookie on Dec 19, 2016 20:35:09 GMT -6
I hold nothing against the players for making this decision, but I think this should be somewhat of an indictment on the combine and pro day system itself (assuming they are doing this more to prep for the draft and less to remain safe).
Consider that they have spent the last few months watching film, practicing football, and for the most part replicating what they will be doing in the NFL (though on a protracted level). What they were producing at that time, what they were putting on film, that should be the best example of what we could expect of them as NFL players. However, to prepare to show their wares to NFL scouts they will prepare in a way different than how they prepared during an actual football season. They will practice running the drills (L-Drill, pro shuttle, 40 get offs) in an attempt to game the system almost. I used to work with a guy who works with college players preparing for the draft, and have seen what they do. Whereas we like to think these drills help prepare players for games, or show how good in the game they can be; players instead learn tricks to be better at the drill itself (cart before the horse). If doing what they are doing now makes them a better 'Football Player' then why wouldn't they be doing it during the season??
Once again, this is not a slight on the players, they are doing what is in their best interest, rather a slight against a system which evaluates players in such a way.
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Post by spos21ram on Dec 19, 2016 20:39:03 GMT -6
In response to the possible ramifications and their draft grade taking a hit....If I was a NFL GM and one of these guys is on the top of my list then I'm hoping these guys sit out. No way this hurts their draft stock.
This is total speculation, but I really don't think this idea just popped into their head. We all know how competitive guys like this are. There's no way it was easy for these guys to tell their teammates they weren't going to play. The idea of them sitting out was planted in them by their family, agents, whoever has an interest in their future.
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Post by wingtol on Dec 19, 2016 20:42:35 GMT -6
I don't blame them. Watch some bowl today where they might have been 2500 people in attendance. Let's face it some of these bowls are just a way for coaches to get a few extra practices in for next year. Sadly it's all about the money these days, sure these guys aren't willing to risk millions to hold up the Sun Bowl trophy. Weren't they both banged up this year too?
Also I would bet it has less to do with training for the combine than don't wanna blow my knee out like the guy from ND in some chit bag bowl. I mean what this gives them a whole extra week to get ready for the combine now...
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Post by mariner42 on Dec 19, 2016 20:59:04 GMT -6
Jaylon Smith lost something like 20-22 million when he destroyed his knee in a bowl game.
At that point, a lot of the higher ideals about sport go out the window. That's a chance to make a significant impact on your families future, potentially for generations to come.
A few years back my friend ended up coaching in a similar situation at the HS level.
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Post by mrjvi on Dec 19, 2016 21:05:49 GMT -6
I think this possible trend is a perfect justification for an expanded play-off like the other divisions. You could call the play-off games bowl games. Just my opinion. I guess I understand their decision but I am disappointed. I like college ball better anyway, but HS is the best.
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Post by natenator on Dec 19, 2016 21:05:55 GMT -6
Jaylon Smith lost something like 20-22 million when he destroyed his knee in a bowl game. At that point, a lot of the higher ideals about sport go out the window. That's a chance to make a significant impact on your families future, potentially for generations to come. A few years back my friend ended up coaching in a similar situation at the HS level. He could have blown it out in the game before the bowl, or second last game before the bowl. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Jaylon Smith is a weak argument.
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Post by spos21ram on Dec 19, 2016 21:21:29 GMT -6
Jaylon Smith lost something like 20-22 million when he destroyed his knee in a bowl game. At that point, a lot of the higher ideals about sport go out the window. That's a chance to make a significant impact on your families future, potentially for generations to come. A few years back my friend ended up coaching in a similar situation at the HS level. He could have blown it out in the game before the bowl, or second last game before the bowl. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Jaylon Smith is a weak argument. Coulda woulda shoulda?? But it did happen in a bowl game and he did lose millions. That's not coulda woulda shoulda, that's reality. That's the exact reason these 2 are sitting the game out.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 21:31:42 GMT -6
He could have blown it out in the game before the bowl, or second last game before the bowl. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Jaylon Smith is a weak argument. Coulda woulda shoulda?? But it did happen in a bowl game and he did lose millions. That's not coulda woulda shoulda, that's reality. That's the exact reason these 2 are sitting the game out. But how many of these guys blow their game out in the 7th game, or the 8th, and lose millions? What I hope doesn't happen is guys who play on teams going through disappointing seasons and "opt out" of part of it to prepare for the NFL draft and combines. This is a slippery slope here. If you're at Georgia and you're 2-4 or whatever, why risk your body and future getting the crap beat out of you in the SEC for 6 or 7 more games when you're clearly not going to be competing for a championship?
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Post by nhsehs on Dec 19, 2016 21:48:26 GMT -6
Coulda woulda shoulda?? But it did happen in a bowl game and he did lose millions. That's not coulda woulda shoulda, that's reality. That's the exact reason these 2 are sitting the game out. But how many of these guys blow their game out in the 7th game, or the 8th, and lose millions? What I hope doesn't happen is guys who play on teams going through disappointing seasons and "opt out" of part of it to prepare for the NFL draft and combines. This is a slippery slope here. If you're at Georgia and you're 2-4 or whatever, why risk your body and future getting the crap beat out of you in the SEC for 6 or 7 more games when you're clearly not going to be competing for a championship? The market will take care of that. NFL teams won't be too concerned with these guys opting out of meaningless bowl games, but if a guy quits mid-season or during a championship run, that is a red flag to NFL organizations and will greatly affect a prospect's draft status.
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Post by carookie on Dec 19, 2016 22:35:07 GMT -6
But how many of these guys blow their game out in the 7th game, or the 8th, and lose millions? What I hope doesn't happen is guys who play on teams going through disappointing seasons and "opt out" of part of it to prepare for the NFL draft and combines. This is a slippery slope here. If you're at Georgia and you're 2-4 or whatever, why risk your body and future getting the crap beat out of you in the SEC for 6 or 7 more games when you're clearly not going to be competing for a championship? The market will take care of that. NFL teams won't be too concerned with these guys opting out of meaningless bowl games, but if a guy quits mid-season or during a championship run, that is a red flag to NFL organizations and will greatly affect a prospect's draft status. So then where is the line? Do we just arbitrarily say 'Bowl Game', as opposed to a guy on a 2-8 team dropping out of the team's 'meaningless' last game of the season? What factor for a GM differentiates bowl game as opposed to last regular season game? I agree that NFL teams will justify it in their minds, but in reality there is little difference.
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Post by nhsehs on Dec 19, 2016 22:57:46 GMT -6
The market will take care of that. NFL teams won't be too concerned with these guys opting out of meaningless bowl games, but if a guy quits mid-season or during a championship run, that is a red flag to NFL organizations and will greatly affect a prospect's draft status. So then where is the line? Do we just arbitrarily say 'Bowl Game', as opposed to a guy on a 2-8 team dropping out of the team's 'meaningless' last game of the season? What factor for a GM differentiates bowl game as opposed to last regular season game? I agree that NFL teams will justify it in their minds, but in reality there is little difference. It's out of my pay grade to define where the line is, but I would think there is a big difference in a "meaningless" REGULAR season game and a "meaningless" POST season game. If nothing else, it is common practice for coaching movement during bowl season, which would make a player's decision to move on more justifiable during this time. But, it's still the player's call. Like I said originally, the repercussions the player experiences should come from NFL organizations in the form of draft evaluation, not the NCAA.
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Post by 19delta on Dec 19, 2016 22:57:50 GMT -6
The market will take care of that. NFL teams won't be too concerned with these guys opting out of meaningless bowl games, but if a guy quits mid-season or during a championship run, that is a red flag to NFL organizations and will greatly affect a prospect's draft status. So then where is the line? Do we just arbitrarily say 'Bowl Game', as opposed to a guy on a 2-8 team dropping out of the team's 'meaningless' last game of the season? What factor for a GM differentiates bowl game as opposed to last regular season game? I agree that NFL teams will justify it in their minds, but in reality there is little difference. It's probably different for every player. Guys like Fournett and McCaffrey are going to be afforded a lot more wiggle room than Johnny TryHard from Mid Major State. This is only going to apply to the truly elite guys who have already earned the best draft position they can get. For guys like Fournett and McCaffrey, playing in the bowl game won't help them much but it could hurt them.
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Post by fantom on Dec 19, 2016 23:34:57 GMT -6
So then where is the line? Do we just arbitrarily say 'Bowl Game', as opposed to a guy on a 2-8 team dropping out of the team's 'meaningless' last game of the season? What factor for a GM differentiates bowl game as opposed to last regular season game? I agree that NFL teams will justify it in their minds, but in reality there is little difference. It's out of my pay grade to define where the line is, but I would think there is a big difference in a "meaningless" REGULAR season game and a "meaningless" POST season game. If nothing else, it is common practice for coaching movement during bowl season, which would make a player's decision to move on more justifiable during this time. But, it's still the player's call. Like I said originally, the repercussions the player experiences should come from NFL organizations in the form of draft evaluation, not the NCAA. What would the NCAA be able to do anyway?
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Post by tothehouse on Dec 20, 2016 0:26:05 GMT -6
What about the guys on the team that have no shot to play after college? And want a shot at winning a bowl game. Getting to a bowl game isn't guaranteed (though there are 1,000 of them now). The other guys on the team have a better chance at winning if their "dude" is playing. Just throwing that out there. MaCaffery, et. al. could get hurt lifting or running during their "training". Just never know.
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Post by tabs52 on Dec 20, 2016 4:44:34 GMT -6
Jaylon Smith lost something like 20-22 million when he destroyed his knee in a bowl game. At that point, a lot of the higher ideals about sport go out the window. That's a chance to make a significant impact on your families future, potentially for generations to come. A few years back my friend ended up coaching in a similar situation at the HS level. He could have blown it out in the game before the bowl, or second last game before the bowl. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Jaylon Smith is a weak argument. Actually its not, its exactly what these guys are trying to avoid. These guys should have the right to protect themselves, if it what they feel is the best for them and their family. To me the bigger problem is coaches jumping ship and leaving these guys behind, where is there commitment? It can not go both ways if a coach can leave for a better job prior to the bowl season then these guys have every right to protect themselves
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