|
Post by bigcoach38 on Dec 3, 2016 10:50:38 GMT -6
How do publishers like coaches choice etc. publish books by people who like many of us "stole/borrowed" the information. How many guys can publish air raid books for example, use on resumes that they are published when it basically all comes from Mumme, Leach and or Franklin. Hell they probably went to one of Franklin's clinics and signed the agreement to not share for a year or so not sell a book as if it is all theirs?? At least borderline unprofessional and unethical in my opinion...sorry I rarely post but had to rant.
|
|
|
Post by bigcoach38 on Dec 3, 2016 18:25:57 GMT -6
lots of views but no responses? Am I the only one that has an issue with stuff like that.
|
|
|
Post by utchuckd on Dec 3, 2016 18:45:45 GMT -6
Apparently.
|
|
|
Post by freezeoption on Dec 3, 2016 19:32:05 GMT -6
I think most of us know that nothing is new, everything has probably been covered before. I'm not worried about a guy writing or talking about stuff. I've published a couple of articles years ago. I got some of those ideas from other guys, put what I liked with some twists. I didn't make any money on the articles, they seemed to forget to send the check, which is fine because I wrote them when I was bored and had time. If it helps someone out or helps them keep their job then I'm happy.
|
|
|
Post by bigcoach38 on Dec 3, 2016 20:08:28 GMT -6
I have no problem with articles in publications but I do have a problem with someone writing a whole book about an offense or defense as if it is their own.
|
|
|
Post by hunhdisciple on Dec 3, 2016 20:31:58 GMT -6
The fact that nothing is new, and someone would defend one small detail as to why is was completely different, this just seems like an odd fight.
I mean, I 100% get what you are saying, and it wouldn't be accepted in any professional field.
But, the fact that nothing is really, legally "owned," kind of leaves it open. The fact that most guys will try to sell their new spin or twist as the reason they've made it better, is basically all it comes down to.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Dec 3, 2016 21:30:34 GMT -6
I have no problem with articles in publications but I do have a problem with someone writing a whole book about an offense or defense as if it is their own. I think you are kind of ranting about nothing. Every bank I have seen takes deposits and makes loans. Within 1 mile of my house, there are over 15 buildings in which the occupiers of said building has goods in it that they sell. Are they running a store like the idea of one is their own? There are 1000s of books on investing...buy low sell high. Movies/Tv shows and plays repeat the same story lines and tropes. How does a coach "own" a drag route? How does a coach own the "shade/5/9" alignment to the TE? How does a coach own route conversions? How does a coach own 4 vertical routes? How does a coach own a defensive player spilling a kickout block?
|
|
|
Post by morris on Dec 3, 2016 22:23:27 GMT -6
How do publishers like coaches choice etc. publish books by people who like many of us "stole/borrowed" the information. How many guys can publish air raid books for example, use on resumes that they are published when it basically all comes from Mumme, Leach and or Franklin. Hell they probably went to one of Franklin's clinics and signed the agreement to not share for a year or so not sell a book as if it is all theirs?? At least borderline unprofessional and unethical in my opinion...sorry I rarely post but had to rant. I think it's funny you use the Air Raid as your example. Mumme got the offense from BYU (he did change something yes but it's the BYU offense) and got Shallow from the 49ers. BYU got it from the NFL. Franklin learned it all from Mumme and then turned around and built a business. When you watch TFS DVDs they openly talk about different things coming from different coaches but they still sell it as theirs. I'm sure you knew all of that but it's still funny. To my knowledge there are only two guys that have published Air Raid books. One is the LaVell Edwards/Norm Chow book and then Hargitt's books. I guess some people have an issue but I'd say that has to do with how people have begun to name and market their systems. No one owns an offense or a defense.
|
|
|
Post by 33coach on Dec 4, 2016 0:04:43 GMT -6
this argument has no validity. the reason there are so many books on the same subject are because everyone's view point is different.
its sort of like arguing why there are so many Algebra 1 book authors out there.
|
|
|
Post by CS on Dec 4, 2016 5:14:36 GMT -6
I have no problem with articles in publications but I do have a problem with someone writing a whole book about an offense or defense as if it is their own. Then don't buy or read them. Problem solved
|
|
|
Post by bigcoach38 on Dec 4, 2016 9:18:23 GMT -6
I do not buy them thanks...my intention was not to offend any "authors". But yes, to author a book and not change or properly cite sources is or should be an issue. That is all I was pointing out.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Dec 4, 2016 9:21:23 GMT -6
I do not buy them thanks...my intention was not to offend any "authors". But yes, to author a book and not change or properly cite sources is or should be an issue. That is all I was pointing out. Coach..how does one properly cite "a source" though. As pointed out--you were incorrectly citing Mumme, Leach and Franklin when it comes from further back than that?
|
|
|
Post by Chris Clement on Dec 4, 2016 9:35:18 GMT -6
Literature review, explanatory footnotes, and in-text citations. Obv.
|
|
|
Post by CS on Dec 4, 2016 9:51:29 GMT -6
I do not buy them thanks...my intention was not to offend any "authors". But yes, to author a book and not change or properly cite sources is or should be an issue. That is all I was pointing out. You're welcome
|
|
|
Post by **** on Dec 4, 2016 9:52:05 GMT -6
TCU was running spread back in the 50's when Mumme was a little kid.
You take the blue pill—the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill—you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
|
|
|
Post by freezeoption on Dec 4, 2016 9:54:14 GMT -6
sure, do that, but then your going to have to look up stuff that may not be on the internet, if a person got an idea from someone and wants to site it great, its like taking the pass back to pop warner or the option back to faraout, and I am sure there was probably somebody before them
|
|
|
Post by bigcoach38 on Dec 4, 2016 9:54:43 GMT -6
I did not quote Mumme, Leach or Franklin, hell we could relate it all back to the invention of the forward pass. But, lets say the term "Air Raid Offense" was coined by one of those three...how can someone else use that term as his/her own.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Dec 4, 2016 9:57:29 GMT -6
Literature review, explanatory footnotes, and in-text citations. Obv. I wasn't asking about the format, but rather ascertaining the correct origin. Then the book would simply become a history of football book correct? Who came up with the variation of huddle that you use? Who came up with the 3 point stance? Is your 3 point stance the same as mine? Who derived the line splits used? Are you up on the ball, or back off..and who came up with that idea.... Get the point?
|
|
|
Post by spos21ram on Dec 4, 2016 10:02:49 GMT -6
I do not buy them thanks...my intention was not to offend any "authors". But yes, to author a book and not change or properly cite sources is or should be an issue. That is all I was pointing out. If you haven't bought them or read them then how are you able to make the conclusion that they pawned an offense off as their own? Yes, there are several version of every offense out there to be bought on DVD or book but they're never the exact same. Each one claims to have their own spin on it which is usually true.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Dec 4, 2016 10:06:50 GMT -6
I did not quote Mumme, Leach or Franklin, hell we could relate it all back to the invention of the forward pass. But, lets say the term "Air Raid Offense" was coined by one of those three...how can someone else use that term as his/her own. Let's say the term "triple option offense" was coined by _______ how can someone else use that term as his/her own Lets's say the term "Veer" was coined by _____ how can someone else use that term as his/her own Let's say the term "4-3" was coined by ________ how can someone else use that term as his/her own...
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Dec 4, 2016 10:09:15 GMT -6
I did not quote Mumme, Leach or Franklin, How many guys can publish air raid books for example, use on resumes that they are published when it basically all comes from Mumme, Leach and or Franklin. You said that "the air raid" offense all comes from Mumme, Leach, or Franklin. That is citing them as the creators.
|
|
|
Post by bigcoach38 on Dec 4, 2016 10:10:31 GMT -6
never said I have not read or skimmed through a few. Nor am I saying the authors are not knowledgeable or quality coaches. Just stating as someone else on this thread did that this would not be an acceptable practice in any other field. In the end, I agree it is probably not a big deal.
|
|
|
Post by jlenwood on Dec 4, 2016 10:19:14 GMT -6
I don't know about books, but I have written some articles for some online magazines before. One entity published some of my stuff, and then the last article I sent them, the guy I sent it to published it as his writing! THAT my friends is the definition of unethical!
|
|
|
Post by morris on Dec 4, 2016 12:27:44 GMT -6
I did not quote Mumme, Leach or Franklin, hell we could relate it all back to the invention of the forward pass. But, lets say the term "Air Raid Offense" was coined by one of those three...how can someone else use that term as his/her own. The term Air Raid came from Leach I'm pretty sure. The Air siren that they used at KY was first used at Valdosta St. it wasn't until they got to Kentucky that it really took off. The funny thing is by the above standard Mouse Davis's offense shouldn't or couldn't be called the run and shoot. Mouse even didn't want to call it that but wanted to call it the double slot offense or something like that. On another note TCU was spread before the 50s. Dutch Meyers 5 wide I think was the late 30 or in the 40s. Slinging Sammy Baugh was the QB then.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Clement on Dec 4, 2016 12:50:56 GMT -6
Literature review, explanatory footnotes, and in-text citations. Obv. I wasn't asking about the format, but rather ascertaining the correct origin. Then the book would simply become a history of football book correct? Who came up with the variation of huddle that you use? Who came up with the 3 point stance? Is your 3 point stance the same as mine? Who derived the line splits used? Are you up on the ball, or back off..and who came up with that idea.... Get the point? I was being a splash facetious.
|
|
|
Post by dsqa on Dec 4, 2016 22:35:30 GMT -6
As one whose worked very hard to publish "new" material throughout my career, I always appreciate coaches who at least credit what they borrow.
Most coaches wrongly assume everyone steals, borrows, rips everything so there is no "new" intellectual property.
It's very difficult and time consuming to generate "new" material that is broadly applicable, unique in approach, and not dependent on another's work.
But that's difficult to explain without sounding like I'm selling something or only concerned about money, so motives are always in question...tough, tough nut to crack.
But many thanks to the coaches with integrity who properly credit sources
|
|
|
Post by somecoach on Dec 5, 2016 2:14:15 GMT -6
I have no problem with articles in publications but I do have a problem with someone writing a whole book about an offense or defense as if it is their own. People also bottle water and sell it... That is the beauty of capitalism. If someone can take a commodity, packages it, markets it, and sells it for a profit KUDOS! If people buy in enough to their advertising and purchase something they probably could have found for free by piecing together minutes (or years) of research, that is their choice. In the grand scheme of things the buyer is essentially buying the research put into the book. I wouldn't sweat it too much its just business... Unless you just received a subpoena for copy write infringement for drawing 4 verts up during a clinic.
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Dec 5, 2016 11:55:19 GMT -6
Here's the thing: I've been doing this for a long time. I've gotten really good stuff from some of the best but I couldn't tell you where I got what. I'd gladly attribute everything that I know but I really don't know to whom.
|
|
|
Post by groundchuck on Dec 5, 2016 15:26:43 GMT -6
Isn't it kind of like remixing a song? It's the same song yet different.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 23:43:22 GMT -6
Most of this stuff isn't trademarkable. It's all basically public domain unless you lift from, say, the TFS or another author word for word.
|
|