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Post by texasslot on Oct 31, 2016 12:35:43 GMT -6
I can assure you guys, this loss hurt. Probably one of the worst losses I've ever felt. I coach for the Artesia Bulldogs and coached in this game. The whole game was bad. They were a dirty team. When they swiped the ball out of our hands, we hadn't even snapped the ball. It was still on the ground in the centers hand when they hit it. I'm not one to make excuses and blame losses on officials, but we got screwed in this game. Hopefully we will get another shot at them in the playoffs. I have never seen anything like this in a game before. Everyone of our coaches on staff were baffled about the outcome.
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Post by ahall005 on Oct 31, 2016 13:05:16 GMT -6
I can assure you guys, this loss hurt. Probably one of the worst losses I've ever felt. I coach for the Artesia Bulldogs and coached in this game. The whole game was bad. They were a dirty team. When they swiped the ball out of our hands, we hadn't even snapped the ball. It was still on the ground in the centers hand when they hit it. I'm not one to make excuses and blame losses on officials, but we got screwed in this game. Hopefully we will get another shot at them in the playoffs. I have never seen anything like this in a game before. Everyone of our coaches on staff were baffled about the outcome. Did this just happen this week?
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Post by texasslot on Oct 31, 2016 13:13:06 GMT -6
I can assure you guys, this loss hurt. Probably one of the worst losses I've ever felt. I coach for the Artesia Bulldogs and coached in this game. The whole game was bad. They were a dirty team. When they swiped the ball out of our hands, we hadn't even snapped the ball. It was still on the ground in the centers hand when they hit it. I'm not one to make excuses and blame losses on officials, but we got screwed in this game. Hopefully we will get another shot at them in the playoffs. I have never seen anything like this in a game before. Everyone of our coaches on staff were baffled about the outcome. Did this just happen this week? Yes, it happened last Friday, the 28th.
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Post by fantom on Oct 31, 2016 14:10:01 GMT -6
That's not a case of the ball being swiped, that's just Myers being stupid for not kneeling out of shotgun. And for not expecting the other team to keep playing.
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Post by carookie on Oct 31, 2016 14:10:20 GMT -6
I can assure you guys, this loss hurt. Probably one of the worst losses I've ever felt. I coach for the Artesia Bulldogs and coached in this game. The whole game was bad. They were a dirty team. When they swiped the ball out of our hands, we hadn't even snapped the ball. It was still on the ground in the centers hand when they hit it. I'm not one to make excuses and blame losses on officials, but we got screwed in this game. Hopefully we will get another shot at them in the playoffs. I have never seen anything like this in a game before. Everyone of our coaches on staff were baffled about the outcome. Let me be one of the many to congratulate you on the composure and maturity displayed by your staff in light of those events. You may have lost the game, but from what I can tell you taught your players a lot in the way of dealing with adversity like a man.
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Post by texasslot on Oct 31, 2016 14:17:58 GMT -6
I can assure you guys, this loss hurt. Probably one of the worst losses I've ever felt. I coach for the Artesia Bulldogs and coached in this game. The whole game was bad. They were a dirty team. When they swiped the ball out of our hands, we hadn't even snapped the ball. It was still on the ground in the centers hand when they hit it. I'm not one to make excuses and blame losses on officials, but we got screwed in this game. Hopefully we will get another shot at them in the playoffs. I have never seen anything like this in a game before. Everyone of our coaches on staff were baffled about the outcome. Let me be one of the many to congratulate you on the composure and maturity displayed by your staff in light of those events. You may have lost the game, but from what I can tell you taught your players a lot in the way of dealing with adversity like a man. Thanks, we appreciate that! Our program is all built upon playing with class and acting like men when things don't go our way. However, not everyone shares you're and our views on how we acted. There are people in the community that are upset with the coaching staff, because they felt "we didn't stick up for the kids" cause we didn't get in the officials face and throw a fit about the call. I can assure our HC went out there and told them what he thought, but he didn't loose his cool.
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Post by ahall005 on Oct 31, 2016 15:22:27 GMT -6
Thanks, we appreciate that! Our program is all built upon playing with class and acting like men when things don't go our way. However, not everyone shares you're and our views on how we acted. There are people in the community that are upset with the coaching staff, because they felt "we didn't stick up for the kids" cause we didn't get in the officials face and throw a fit about the call. I can assure our HC went out there and told them what he thought, but he didn't loose his cool. Classic damned if you do damned if you don't. Saw this on football scoop... looks like the kid was clearly in the neutral zone with the swipe footballscoop.com/news/5-straight-penalties-hs-team-pulls-off-craziest-ending-game-youll-ever-see/
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Post by fantom on Oct 31, 2016 16:16:37 GMT -6
This may be an isolated case now but I'd hate to see this become a trend. I don't know how it could be worded but maybe rulesmakers should add a time runoff late in games for dead ball penalties that officials rule to be intentional.
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Post by texasslot on Oct 31, 2016 19:54:27 GMT -6
This may be an isolated case now but I'd hate to see this become a trend. I don't know how it could be worded but maybe rulesmakers should add a time runoff late in games for dead ball penalties that officials rule to be intentional. Under NCAA RULES, if a team keeps committing a foul to stop the clock with under a minute left to play-like they did- the other team can choose to either take the 5 yard penalty or have a 10 second run off on the clock.
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Post by fantom on Oct 31, 2016 20:16:26 GMT -6
This may be an isolated case now but I'd hate to see this become a trend. I don't know how it could be worded but maybe rulesmakers should add a time runoff late in games for dead ball penalties that officials rule to be intentional. Under NCAA RULES, if a team keeps committing a foul to stop the clock with under a minute left to play-like they did- the other team can choose to either take the 5 yard penalty or have a 10 second run off on the clock. You guys are under NCAA rules, right? If so the officials really screwed the pooch.
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Post by coachb5806 on Oct 31, 2016 20:43:54 GMT -6
NM is under NFHS rules.
Here is some background on Artesia that someone associated with their program would never tell you. They are elite. There are few programs in the country at any level that can claim the things they have accomplished. They are gunning for the 30th state title since 1950 something and in my opinion this incident all but guaranteed they will get it.
Goddard is their biggest rival in classification. When I played we were in district with both and it wasn't pretty. Artesia is the classiest program I have ever seen. As a player and coach I have never been treated so well and had the hell beat out of me simultaneously. On our state board someone posted an NFHS rule that to me makes it clear that this is illegal.
I personally have immense respect for both of these programs, but Artesia doesn't need a chip on their shoulder. Watch out. I will Keep you guys posted.
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Post by fantom on Oct 31, 2016 20:54:07 GMT -6
NM is under NFHS rules. Here is some background on Artesia that someone associated with their program would never tell you. They are elite. There are few programs in the country at any level that can claim the things they have accomplished. They are gunning for the 30th state title since 1950 something and in my opinion this incident all but guaranteed they will get it. Goddard is their biggest rival in classification. When I played we were in district with both and it wasn't pretty. Artesia is the classiest program I have ever seen. As a player and coach I have never been treated so well and had the hell beat out of me simultaneously. On our state board someone posted an NFHS rule that to me makes it clear that this is illegal. I personally have immense respect for both of these programs, but Artesia doesn't need a chip on their shoulder. Watch out. I will Keep you guys posted. OK, for some reason I thought that this was in Texas. I stand by the idea that the Fed should set a rule allowing a runoff.
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Post by jasper912 on Oct 31, 2016 22:06:49 GMT -6
Swiping the ball from the center is 100% illegal and should have been a penalty. We had to deal with this earlier in the season.
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Post by fantom on Oct 31, 2016 22:45:54 GMT -6
Swiping the ball from the center is 100% illegal and should have been a penalty. We had to deal with this earlier in the season. Problem was that it was a penalty but a dead ball.
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Post by jrk5150 on Nov 1, 2016 6:26:02 GMT -6
I would imagine that someone could pretty easily figure out mathematically that it would be physically impossible for that to legally happen. As you can see in the link where it was slowed down and blown up, it wasn't even close to being legal, the defender's hand was across the ball before the ball moved. There doesn't need to be a new rule, just a decision issued that there cannot be a legal swipe without going offsides.
How much latitude do the Fed rules give to the officials with the clock? Can the refs choose to start winding the clock on the ready to play, saying that absent the gratuitous penalty the clock would be running? Can they start throwing USC flags, which would move them at 15 yard chunks and even allow them to start ejecting players? If there is a one game suspension with an ejection, might slow those clowns down.
Those refs should be suspended, if not de-certified or whatever. Just can't have people like that put in charge.
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Post by coachrdc on Nov 1, 2016 6:40:41 GMT -6
I played center in high school and we had a team try to do this same thing to us, I even got hurt on one of them trying to just proect myself. It is absolute garbage. I'm pretty sure that in Indiana it is now like it apparently is in other states where if you declare you are taking a knee the officials direct the other team to lay off the center. I really feel for Artesia.
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Post by silkyice on Nov 1, 2016 6:43:20 GMT -6
I would imagine that someone could pretty easily figure out mathematically that it would be physically impossible for that to legally happen. As you can see in the link where it was slowed down and blown up, it wasn't even close to being legal, the defender's hand was across the ball before the ball moved. There doesn't need to be a new rule, just a decision issued that there cannot be a legal swipe without going offsides. This would be similar to the NBA rule where you have to tap in a shot with 0.3 seconds or less remaining in the period, because it is physically impossible to do a regular shot in that amount of time. It would also be similar to being disqualified in a track because you put pressure on the starting blocks quicker than 0.1 (or whatever) seconds after the gun.
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Post by jasper912 on Nov 1, 2016 8:07:49 GMT -6
Swiping the ball from the center is 100% illegal and should have been a penalty. We had to deal with this earlier in the season. Problem was that it was a penalty but a dead ball. Yeah but the defense should have never been awarded the football.
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Post by Coach Vint on Nov 1, 2016 9:28:01 GMT -6
The NCAA rule is very clear. The NFHS rule is not as clear. Here is the NCAA rule: SECTION 23. Snapping the Ball ARTICLE 1. a. Legally snapping the ball (a snap) is handing or passing it backward from its position on the ground with a quick and continuous motion of the hand or hands, the ball actually leaving the hand or hands in this motion (Rule 4-1-4). b. The snap starts when the ball is moved legally and ends when the ball leaves the snapper’s hands (A.R. 7-1-5-I-II). c. If, during any backward motion of a legal snap, the ball slips from the snapper’s hand, it becomes a backward pass and is in play (Rule 4-1-1). d. While resting on the ground and before the snap, the long axis of the ball must be at right angles to the scrimmage line (Rule 7-1-3). e. Unless moved in a backward direction, the movement of the ball does not start a legal snap. It is not a legal snap if the ball is first moved forward or lifted. f. If the ball is touched by Team B during a legal snap, the ball remains dead and Team B is penalized. If the ball is touched by Team B during an illegal snap, the ball remains dead and Team A is penalized (A.R. 7-1-5-I-II)
According to the NCAA rule, this is not allowed in any way shape or form. It is a dead ball foul. You cannot interfere with the snap. I have never seen this allowed anywhere, ever. This is an atrocity.
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pistola
Sophomore Member
Posts: 193
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Post by pistola on Nov 1, 2016 10:45:06 GMT -6
yeah very clearly in neutral zone.. he actually swipes the ball back to him. Whoever that writer is that is writing for "footballscoop" is struggling with this whole deal.. not very bright
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Post by runitupthemiddle on Nov 1, 2016 12:15:11 GMT -6
So what is the rule interpretation on swiping at the ball before it's snapped. Did the refs feel that the snap had started before the DL swiped it on the one they ruled a turnover? It looked to me like nose of the ball was moving
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Post by runitupthemiddle on Nov 1, 2016 12:20:31 GMT -6
Basically, to be legal a snap has to have some "snap" to it. So between the snap needing to be quick, and the minimum time of about 0.15 seconds the argument is that nobody could possibly be quick enough to react to the snap and swipe at the ball successfully unless the snap was extremely slow, to the point of being a penalty (a rule which exists because it limits ambiguity on what constitutes the start of the play, so there's no confusion about whether it's game on or the center just adjusting the ball. Can't a basketball player get off a shot in .08, why can't a snap be swooped in .15? Not saying it's right But I think it could be done
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Post by runitupthemiddle on Nov 1, 2016 12:23:05 GMT -6
I would imagine that someone could pretty easily figure out mathematically that it would be physically impossible for that to legally happen. As you can see in the link where it was slowed down and blown up, it wasn't even close to being legal, the defender's hand was across the ball before the ball moved. There doesn't need to be a new rule, just a decision issued that there cannot be a legal swipe without going offsides. This would be similar to the NBA rule where you have to tap in a shot with 0.3 seconds or less remaining in the period, because it is physically impossible to do a regular shot in that amount of time. It would also be similar to being disqualified in a track because you put pressure on the starting blocks quicker than 0.1 (or whatever) seconds after the gun. Didn't see this when i did my last post
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Post by jrk5150 on Nov 1, 2016 12:51:31 GMT -6
Too bad Mythbusters is off the air. They could have gotten that ninja who was trying to catch arrows... :-)
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Post by Chris Clement on Nov 1, 2016 12:58:15 GMT -6
Basically, to be legal a snap has to have some "snap" to it. So between the snap needing to be quick, and the minimum time of about 0.15 seconds the argument is that nobody could possibly be quick enough to react to the snap and swipe at the ball successfully unless the snap was extremely slow, to the point of being a penalty (a rule which exists because it limits ambiguity on what constitutes the start of the play, so there's no confusion about whether it's game on or the center just adjusting the ball. Can't a basketball player get off a shot in .08, why can't a snap be swooped in .15? Not saying it's right But I think it could be done It's not how quick he moves, it's that he can't possibly react to the snap faster, it's the limits of the brain taking in stimulus and responding.
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Post by carookie on Nov 1, 2016 13:18:27 GMT -6
Can't a basketball player get off a shot in .08, why can't a snap be swooped in .15? Not saying it's right But I think it could be done It's not how quick he moves, it's that he can't possibly react to the snap faster, it's the limits of the brain taking in stimulus and responding. I think the argument is about him moving faster, you are assuming he is reacting to the snap, he is simply guessing (thats why they were offsides multiple times). So the defensive team could argue they just guessed right, did not react to stimulus rather guessed at the right time. They are allowed to guess. But I think it would be physically impossible, even if a player guessed at the precise moment, for a defensive player to swipe their arm into the neutral zone and hit the ball before it got to the QB (unless he was offsides). Regardless, I do not believe that a defensive player can touch the snap before it touches an offensive player or the ground. I believe the illegal snap rule is defined as the following: Snap fails to immediately leave the hand(s) of the snapper and touch a back or touch the ground. In other words the defensive team cannot tough the ball, following the snap, unless it hits the ground or an offensive player first.
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Post by coachb5806 on Nov 1, 2016 20:41:52 GMT -6
Just saw a reporter tweet that he spoke to our state association and they checked with the national federation and were told that this was legal
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Post by Chris Clement on Nov 1, 2016 21:08:24 GMT -6
I guess we should start discussing the best techniques to do it then. I think, as a first guess, that you should try to reach right into the QBs hands with a flat hand and then push down once the ball arrives. You know where the ball is going so you can meet it there instead of trying to meet the ball mid-snap. Stance wise you need to look at what's best for swiping, never mind the get-off.
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Post by shocktroop34 on Nov 2, 2016 5:35:04 GMT -6
Just saw a reporter tweet that he spoke to our state association and they checked with the national federation and were told that this was legal Very interesting...but I don't want to win that way.
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Post by spos21ram on Nov 2, 2016 6:05:11 GMT -6
Just saw a reporter tweet that he spoke to our state association and they checked with the national federation and were told that this was legal Did they expand on their answer? Anyone can say it's legal in theory as long as the defense isn't in the neutral zone or offsides. I dont think it's physically possible though. Also, the play in question should have been a penalty. On the close up pics the defender is clearly over the ball.
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