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Post by jlenwood on Aug 16, 2016 7:36:29 GMT -6
Reading the Last Chance U thread, and watching the show, confirmed to me what I have thought for years....if a HS athlete has the talent to be a professional athlete, why does he have to go to college?
I mean, look at UK basketball. Calipari has been very outspoken on the fact that he recruits players for one year. So my question is why even make the kid miss one year of getting paid? After LeBron I think the NBA put the rule in that said you have to play a year of NCAA to be eligible for the draft...stupid. Why not have a developmental league in the NFL for kids who OBVIOUSLY have no business being in college and start getting them paid.
I remember years back a kid from our area went straight to MLB as a pitcher. He had an offer from Georgia I think, but went to the minors ( 6 figure siging bonus) and from what I recall he went on to the league and had a nice career. At the time a local sportswriter in the newspaper (yea, it was that long ago) was going on and on about what a terrible decision that was...Oh my God how could you not go get your degree?!? Well, if college is about preparing for the workforce, and your WORK is baseball, why not skip and go straight to getting paid?
I had a late night at work, so I'm just ramblin with words........
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Post by 19delta on Aug 16, 2016 7:49:28 GMT -6
In theory, I agree. I just wonder if there are any 18-year-olds who would be physically prepared enough to play in the NFL.
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Post by fantom on Aug 16, 2016 9:14:06 GMT -6
How would that happen?
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Post by silkyice on Aug 16, 2016 9:43:17 GMT -6
Reading the Last Chance U thread, and watching the show, confirmed to me what I have thought for years....if a HS athlete has the talent to be a professional athlete, why does he have to go to college? I mean, look at UK basketball. Calipari has been very outspoken on the fact that he recruits players for one year. So my question is why even make the kid miss one year of getting paid? After LeBron I think the NBA put the rule in that said you have to play a year of NCAA to be eligible for the draft...stupid. Why not have a developmental league in the NFL for kids who OBVIOUSLY have no business being in college and start getting them paid. I remember years back a kid from our area went straight to MLB as a pitcher. He had an offer from Georgia I think, but went to the minors ( 6 figure siging bonus) and from what I recall he went on to the league and had a nice career. At the time a local sportswriter in the newspaper (yea, it was that long ago) was going on and on about what a terrible decision that was...Oh my God how could you not go get your degree?!? Well, if college is about preparing for the workforce, and your WORK is baseball, why not skip and go straight to getting paid? I had a late night at work, so I'm just ramblin with words........ I agree completely. Except I don't think this really works in football. Who is ready for the NFL out of high school. The only position I can see at all that could do this would be RB and you have to be the biggest freak ever in high school. Like Herschel Walker. I still don't think it could be done, and don't think a NFL team would really take this chance. 100% agree with bball and it was demonstrated for years in the NBA. Same in baseball. Most baseball contracts of high schoolers who get drafted early also come with the stipulation that they will pay for your college also. I think it works out that if you are drafted within the first 5 (I think) rounds that you should sign. If you are a first round pick, you would be an idiot not to sign. How can they deny someone the right to work? I don't know how the NBA gets away with this legally.
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Post by 33coach on Aug 16, 2016 9:46:58 GMT -6
i just dont see a single high school graduate who would be ready for the NFL - aside from physicality. what 18 year old are you going to throw a multi-million dollar contract at and let loose? - an 18 year old is simply not ready for the world of professional football. no more then a pop warner kid is ready for HS....
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Post by fantom on Aug 16, 2016 9:53:34 GMT -6
The question stands: How would that happen? Nobody in their right mind would use a draft pick better than a 5th for a kid. Free agent? Cutting a free agent is easy. In good conscience I couldn't advise a kid to take those ods.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 16, 2016 9:56:04 GMT -6
How can they deny someone the right to work? I don't know how the NBA gets away with this legally. The NBA is a privately-held business. As such, they can set pretty much whatever rules for employment they want. I'm pretty sure that when Maurice Clarett sued the NFL, he essentially argued that the NFL was violating antitrust laws by not allowing him to participate in the draft. The US Court of Appeals ruled against him and basically said that the NFL was free to make their own rules governing whom is eligible for the draft.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 16, 2016 10:02:53 GMT -6
The question stands: How would that happen? Nobody in their right mind would use a draft pick better than a 5th for a kid. Free agent? Cutting a free agent is easy. In good conscience I couldn't advise a kid to take those ods. Yeah. Agreed. In theory, I support the idea. In practice, not so much.
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Post by silkyice on Aug 16, 2016 10:12:57 GMT -6
How can they deny someone the right to work? I don't know how the NBA gets away with this legally. The NBA is a privately-held business. As such, they can set pretty much whatever rules for employment they want. I'm pretty sure that when Maurice Clarett sued the NFL, he essentially argued that the NFL was violating antitrust laws by not allowing him to participate in the draft. The US Court of Appeals ruled against him and basically said that the NFL was free to make their own rules governing whom is eligible for the draft. Not disagreeing about how the court ruled, but what are the rules on age discrimination?
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Post by 19delta on Aug 16, 2016 10:25:12 GMT -6
The NBA is a privately-held business. As such, they can set pretty much whatever rules for employment they want. I'm pretty sure that when Maurice Clarett sued the NFL, he essentially argued that the NFL was violating antitrust laws by not allowing him to participate in the draft. The US Court of Appeals ruled against him and basically said that the NFL was free to make their own rules governing whom is eligible for the draft. Not disagreeing about how the court ruled, but what are the rules on age discrimination? Not sure about the individual states but I believe federal age discrimination laws only apply to people over 40.
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Post by dubber on Aug 16, 2016 11:47:59 GMT -6
I don't think this is a straight to pros conversation.
More like "cut out the middleman NCAA".
If you need to be 20 before going nfl, why not have an intermediary league where guys play ball, make a living, and then get drafted?
So, from 18 to 20 I'm preparing for my future profession instead of skipping class.
Now, just like baseball, there would be way more kids that don't make the NFL than do.
So it boils down to you if you believe that should be free enough to make the decisions, we should be doing that for
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Post by jlenwood on Aug 16, 2016 12:02:48 GMT -6
"Why not have a developmental league in the NFL for kids who OBVIOUSLY have no business being in college and start getting them paid. " I agree, I have never been around an 18 yr old who could play in the NFL, but why waste time at school when they really aren't there for the education. I would say a developmental league of sorts that would be almost like a 2 year program to prepare kids for the next step. For that matter, kids who are in no way wanting to go to college but would love to still play ball could also be involved. Not everyone would shake out as a NFL player, but neither do college players. I could see the NCAA fighting this pretty hard.
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Post by cqmiller on Aug 16, 2016 12:06:13 GMT -6
With the emphasis on player safety... it will never happen.
Reggie Bush was a beast in HS, but without 3+ years of a college S&C program and training table... gets broken into little pieces before he is 20 years old.
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Post by somecoach on Aug 16, 2016 12:12:50 GMT -6
I think that one of the main things (that also sets Football ahead of other sports) is the pure "game speed" and the fact that these kids NEED to grow in order to hang with the best.
Now if the kid is 20-21 and is fully grown and is being looked at by NFL teams for the draft, that's a different story he should be able to drop out and get drafted, what if he gets hurt his last year in college? It's a bad investment.
Say there is a "Lebron James of football" at the highschool and he is a great Defensive End. He blows past all the highschool left tackles and teams run away from him due to the fact that hes 6-4 and 245 pounds. With that being said, his size, strength, and ability would not come close to cutting it in the NFL. He would get smoked by even the worst tackle in the league. He probably has only faced equal sized kids maybe twice his senior year. He also would not be able to keep up with the 1000 page defensive playbook they hand him the first day of training camp. Maybe he had to learn 2-3 stunts his entire highschool career. How is he going to expect to learn all of the block rec's and read stunts in the NFL?
He would just get overwhelmed by size of playbook, size of players, skill of players, and physical ability of players.
The same would go for other positions.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 16, 2016 12:14:08 GMT -6
I don't think this is a straight to pros conversation. More like "cut out the middleman NCAA". If you need to be 20 before going nfl, why not have an intermediary league where guys play ball, make a living, and then get drafted? So, from 18 to 20 I'm preparing for my future profession instead of skipping class. Now, just like baseball, there would be way more kids that don't make the NFL than do. So it boils down to you if you believe that should be free enough to make the decisions, we should be doing that for Well...I think that there HAVE been developmental leagues (NFL Europe most recently) but they either were mismanaged or just didn't make any money.
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Post by coachklee on Aug 16, 2016 12:23:36 GMT -6
Reading the Last Chance U thread, and watching the show, confirmed to me what I have thought for years....if a HS athlete has the talent to be a professional athlete, why does he have to go to college? I mean, look at UK basketball. Calipari has been very outspoken on the fact that he recruits players for one year. So my question is why even make the kid miss one year of getting paid? After LeBron I think the NBA put the rule in that said you have to play a year of NCAA to be eligible for the draft...stupid. Why not have a developmental league in the NFL for kids who OBVIOUSLY have no business being in college and start getting them paid. I remember years back a kid from our area went straight to MLB as a pitcher. He had an offer from Georgia I think, but went to the minors ( 6 figure siging bonus) and from what I recall he went on to the league and had a nice career. At the time a local sportswriter in the newspaper (yea, it was that long ago) was going on and on about what a terrible decision that was...Oh my God how could you not go get your degree?!? Well, if college is about preparing for the workforce, and your WORK is baseball, why not skip and go straight to getting paid? I had a late night at work, so I'm just ramblin with words........ I agree completely. Except I don't think this really works in football. Who is ready for the NFL out of high school. The only position I can see at all that could do this would be RB and you have to be the biggest freak ever in high school. Like Herschel Walker. I still don't think it could be done, and don't think a NFL team would really take this chance. 100% agree with bball and it was demonstrated for years in the NBA. Same in baseball. Most baseball contracts of high schoolers who get drafted early also come with the stipulation that they will pay for your college also. I think it works out that if you are drafted within the first 5 (I think) rounds that you should sign. If you are a first round pick, you would be an idiot not to sign. How can they deny someone the right to work? I don't know how the NBA gets away with this legally. While not the same, IMO I have always believed that any employer, including the NFL, can have whatever minimum requirements they want for their employees. Not a ton different than an employer requiring an associates or bachelors or masters. The NFL just requires 3 years removed from HS...maybe they have NO legal issues & improve some "student"-athlete issues for colleges by requiring an associates or equivalent of 60 some credit hours.
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Post by fantom on Aug 16, 2016 12:40:41 GMT -6
"Why not have a developmental league in the NFL for kids who OBVIOUSLY have no business being in college and start getting them paid. " I agree, I have never been around an 18 yr old who could play in the NFL, but why waste time at school when they really aren't there for the education. I would say a developmental league of sorts that would be almost like a 2 year program to prepare kids for the next step. For that matter, kids who are in no way wanting to go to college but would love to still play ball could also be involved. Not everyone would shake out as a NFL player, but neither do college players. I could see the NCAA fighting this pretty hard. Who would pay for a developmental league?
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Post by 33coach on Aug 16, 2016 12:44:17 GMT -6
"Why not have a developmental league in the NFL for kids who OBVIOUSLY have no business being in college and start getting them paid. " I agree, I have never been around an 18 yr old who could play in the NFL, but why waste time at school when they really aren't there for the education. I would say a developmental league of sorts that would be almost like a 2 year program to prepare kids for the next step. For that matter, kids who are in no way wanting to go to college but would love to still play ball could also be involved. Not everyone would shake out as a NFL player, but neither do college players. I could see the NCAA fighting this pretty hard. Who would pay for a developmental league? the same kind of person that plays AA baseball, or AHL hockey...or any of the other sports that have development leagues.....
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Post by 19delta on Aug 16, 2016 13:05:37 GMT -6
Who would pay for a developmental league? the same kind of person that plays AA baseball, or AHL hockey...or any of the other sports that have development leagues..... The difference is that NCAA FBS and FCS programs already are a defacto developmental league for the NFL. There is no need to establish a minor-league system like what exists in other sports because an endless stream of field-ready talent flows to the NFL from the collegiate system. And other professional football leagues haven't been able to find an audience and make money. Remember the XFL? Vince McMahon is one of the greatest showmen in history yet even his considerable promotional and marketing acumen could not overcome the simple fact that the players in the XFL just weren't very good and the result was boring and ultimately bad football that no one wanted to watch. Looking at it in the simplest terms from the NFL's perspective...why fix what isn't broken?
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Post by jlenwood on Aug 16, 2016 13:16:48 GMT -6
the same kind of person that plays AA baseball, or AHL hockey...or any of the other sports that have development leagues..... The difference is that NCAA FBS and FCS programs already are a defacto developmental league for the NFL. There is no need to establish a minor-league system like what exists in other sports because an endless stream of field-ready talent flows to the NFL from the collegiate system. And other professional football leagues haven't been able to find an audience and make money. Remember the XFL? Vince McMahon is one of the greatest showmen in history yet even his considerable promotional and marketing acumen could not overcome the simple fact that the players in the XFL just weren't very good and the result was boring and ultimately bad football that no one wanted to watch. Looking at it in the simplest terms from the NFL's perspective...why fix what isn't broken? The problem with your statement of the NCAA being the defacto developmental league doesn't address my original point, some of these kids can't spell cat if you spotted them the C, so why the charade of education? It is like the high school kid who transfers schools because of the "academic" shortfalls of the school he is leaving, everyone knows it was sports. Why not just speak the truth and say, like Cardale Jones did, "I ain't come here to play school!"
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Post by Defcord on Aug 16, 2016 13:20:21 GMT -6
I think it all comes down to money. I don't think executives in the NFL are going to take the risk on undeveloped and unproven talent out of high school because it's too large of a risk financially.
I also think money drives the decision to not create a developmental league. First, the NCAA is pretty much a free developmental league so why take the risk. Second, if someone could start a developmental league that eliminated education that could draw sponsorship and derive profits then they would.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 16, 2016 13:43:52 GMT -6
The difference is that NCAA FBS and FCS programs already are a defacto developmental league for the NFL. There is no need to establish a minor-league system like what exists in other sports because an endless stream of field-ready talent flows to the NFL from the collegiate system. And other professional football leagues haven't been able to find an audience and make money. Remember the XFL? Vince McMahon is one of the greatest showmen in history yet even his considerable promotional and marketing acumen could not overcome the simple fact that the players in the XFL just weren't very good and the result was boring and ultimately bad football that no one wanted to watch. Looking at it in the simplest terms from the NFL's perspective...why fix what isn't broken? The problem with your statement of the NCAA being the defacto developmental league doesn't address my original point, some of these kids can't spell cat if you spotted them the C, so why the charade of education? It is like the high school kid who transfers schools because of the "academic" shortfalls of the school he is leaving, everyone knows it was sports. Why not just speak the truth and say, like Cardale Jones did, "I ain't come here to play school!" No doubt. My point is simply that there is no incentive for the NFL to establish an actual minor league. There is even LESS of an incentive for the NFL to push for greater academic integrity among the FBS and FCS programs that provides the NFL with free talent. Like most things, it comes down to economics.
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Post by jrk5150 on Aug 16, 2016 14:08:06 GMT -6
Yes, it's all about the $$. The NFL has a free development league, absolutely no incentive for them to change anything. And the NCAA is making HUGE money, so there's less than no interest for change. They make noises once in a while about cheating and crack down on seriously dysfunctional programs, but generally as long as the dollars are flowing, they just take the cash and turn a blind eye.
Everybody wins...well, except most of the players. But that's a longer post...
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Post by fantom on Aug 16, 2016 14:10:45 GMT -6
The difference is that NCAA FBS and FCS programs already are a defacto developmental league for the NFL. There is no need to establish a minor-league system like what exists in other sports because an endless stream of field-ready talent flows to the NFL from the collegiate system. And other professional football leagues haven't been able to find an audience and make money. Remember the XFL? Vince McMahon is one of the greatest showmen in history yet even his considerable promotional and marketing acumen could not overcome the simple fact that the players in the XFL just weren't very good and the result was boring and ultimately bad football that no one wanted to watch. Looking at it in the simplest terms from the NFL's perspective...why fix what isn't broken? The problem with your statement of the NCAA being the defacto developmental league doesn't address my original point, some of these kids can't spell cat if you spotted them the C, so why the charade of education? It is like the high school kid who transfers schools because of the "academic" shortfalls of the school he is leaving, everyone knows it was sports. Why not just speak the truth and say, like Cardale Jones did, "I ain't come here to play school!" So what's the plan?
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Post by 33coach on Aug 16, 2016 14:15:06 GMT -6
the same kind of person that plays AA baseball, or AHL hockey...or any of the other sports that have development leagues..... The difference is that NCAA FBS and FCS programs already are a defacto developmental league for the NFL. There is no need to establish a minor-league system like what exists in other sports because an endless stream of field-ready talent flows to the NFL from the collegiate system. And other professional football leagues haven't been able to find an audience and make money. Remember the XFL? Vince McMahon is one of the greatest showmen in history yet even his considerable promotional and marketing acumen could not overcome the simple fact that the players in the XFL just weren't very good and the result was boring and ultimately bad football that no one wanted to watch. Looking at it in the simplest terms from the NFL's perspective...why fix what isn't broken? its not anymore though. how many draft picks are ACTUALLY ready their rookie season? not many......
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Post by mahonz on Aug 16, 2016 14:59:57 GMT -6
I coached semi pro ball where lots of HS players that screwed up their grades go to play. The ONLY position I think that can do this is kickers.
Had a kid that graduated HS only on the team that owned all State HS records for punting and place kicking. 60 Yard FG's and punts that exceeded the light halos were not uncommon the 2 seasons he played for us.
He got a few looks from a few NFL teams. He scored in the 97 percentile each time and was told to go to a Juco and get into a big time college program.
Why? If he had a resume that proved he could make these kicks in front of 50K fans on the road...he'd probably have a job in the NFL.
He never followed through. Very talented kicker.
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Post by brophy on Aug 16, 2016 15:07:01 GMT -6
The ncaa wouldnt want it because they have a billion dollar franchise
The nfl doesnt want it because they have a free farm system in the ncaa
There would be no incentive for a kid to want to pursue the college farm system and insist on going pro
The nfl would chew up and spoil any athletic talent it got before it rippened because they have to win now
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Post by 19delta on Aug 16, 2016 15:18:13 GMT -6
The difference is that NCAA FBS and FCS programs already are a defacto developmental league for the NFL. There is no need to establish a minor-league system like what exists in other sports because an endless stream of field-ready talent flows to the NFL from the collegiate system. And other professional football leagues haven't been able to find an audience and make money. Remember the XFL? Vince McMahon is one of the greatest showmen in history yet even his considerable promotional and marketing acumen could not overcome the simple fact that the players in the XFL just weren't very good and the result was boring and ultimately bad football that no one wanted to watch. Looking at it in the simplest terms from the NFL's perspective...why fix what isn't broken? its not anymore though. how many draft picks are ACTUALLY ready their rookie season? not many...... Enough that the NFL isn't going to mess up what is a good thing for them.
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Post by tiger46 on Aug 16, 2016 17:27:09 GMT -6
Screw it. Too long and read like a rant. Which I didn't intend it to be. Lol!
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 16, 2016 18:11:41 GMT -6
Who would pay for a developmental league? the same kind of person that plays AA baseball, or AHL hockey...or any of the other sports that have development leagues..... He asked who would PAY for the teams and infrastructure. Not PLAY. Minor league baseball teams are owned by owners. I am not sure how profitable a minor league football would be, or the interest it would carry. Minor league baseball has 70+ games on a wide range of days all throughout the summer. How would a minor league football league present itself? It would probably have to be in the Spring--because the fall is already saturated with football (HS Friday, College Sat, NFL Sunday, Monday and now thursday) jlenwood This is one of things that by all means WOULD and SHOULD be done, but never will because of the factors mentioned in the thread. From the NFL perspective...why bother trying to associate yourself with a minor league/developmental league. From the NCAA perspective, why not continue to exploit free labor to bring in revenue.
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