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Post by funkfriss on Aug 15, 2016 11:59:59 GMT -6
I started this thread as a way to share observations, questions, concerns and real information. I'm not looking for this to be a debate on whether concussions are a big deal or not. I'm not looking for this to be an editorial or a dialogue of "kids aren't tough" or "I'm tired of concussions." I really just want to see if there are any observations or information out there that I have overlooked or that confirm my own observations and thoughts. Also, others may have questions that they would like to try to find answers to.
I'll start with these observations and questions that I have had:
1. We (our team) are seeing more kids get their bell rung the past few years than I can remember in the past. Parents and administration want our kids in better helmets. We have all HS kids in Revo Speeds and I don't think they've done a damn thing to make our kids safer.
2. Even with the information out there, many kids won't tell us they are having headaches, dizziness, etc.
3. Question for @chrisclement or other math/science nerds (say that with respect) out there. If you have a rather free flowing substance (the brain) in a hard shell (skull) and you put that into another hard shell (helmet) would loosening the outer shell (helmet) allow more force to be absorbed by the inner shell (skull) and therefore less on the free flowing substance (brain)? Basically I'm questioning if tighter helmets are actually not as safe as helmets that are loose fitting.
4. Certain kids are more concussion prone. Should we be discouraging them from playing? Should we be warning them and their parents?
5. I'm thinking we need to do more blocking and tackling drills w/out helmets. Get the technique down where we know they will keep their head out of contact. Gradually build up the speed and intensity while continuing to get better and more confident and comfortable with technique.
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Post by newt21 on Aug 15, 2016 17:03:54 GMT -6
I don't have the years coaching experience of others, so take my response with a grain of salt. I'm going into my 11th year coaching, and I've noticed there are more instances of concussions. I think it is that kids are more aware, but more importantly that coaches are more aware of what to look for. I know when I first started coaching we didn't have to take all these online courses about how to recognize the signs and symptoms of concussions.
As for some kids are more concussion prone, I do agree with this. This is strictly my opinion, but I do believe that neck strength is something that can help prevent concussions and a kid who is new to the game (less neck strength from the helmet/conditioning) is more likely to sustain a concussion than someone who isn't. This is why our team does neck exercises each day (not game day) to help strengthen the neck.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 15, 2016 19:09:13 GMT -6
I started this thread as a way to share observations, questions, concerns and real information. I'm not looking for this to be a debate on whether concussions are a big deal or not. I'm not looking for this to be an editorial or a dialogue of "kids aren't tough" or "I'm tired of concussions." I really just want to see if there are any observations or information out there that I have overlooked or that confirm my own observations and thoughts. Also, others may have questions that they would like to try to find answers to. I'll start with these observations and questions that I have had: 1. We (our team) are seeing more kids get their bell rung the past few years than I can remember in the past. Parents and administration want our kids in better helmets. We have all HS kids in Revo Speeds and I don't think they've done a damn thing to make our kids safer. 2. Even with the information out there, many kids won't tell us they are having headaches, dizziness, etc. 3. Question for @chrisclement or other math/science nerds (say that with respect) out there. If you have a rather free flowing substance (the brain) in a hard shell (skull) and you put that into another hard shell (helmet) would loosening the outer shell (helmet) allow more force to be absorbed by the inner shell (brain) and therefore less on the free flowing substance (brain)? Basically I'm questioning if tighter helmets are actually not as safe as helmets that are loose fitting. 4. Certain kids are more concussion prone. Should we be discouraging them from playing? Should we be warning them and their parents? 5. I'm thinking we need to do more blocking and tackling drills w/out helmets. Get the technique down where we know they will keep their head out of contact. Gradually build up the speed and intensity while continuing to get better and more confident and comfortable with technique. The long and short of it is that the helmets that are currently available were not designed to prevent brain injuries. Doesn't matter if it is a Riddell or a Schutt or whatever. The helmets we are using now are designed to protect the skull from fracture and contusion and to protect the soft tissue of the head. Helmets cannot prevent brain injuries. We really can't make the game "safer" given the current technology available to equipment designers. And we really can't make blocking and tackling safer, either. Most coaches are teaching the "safest" technique available. And no amount of tackling and blocking drills without helmets can overcome the physics of a brain injury. The brain floats freely in the skull so unless some way to immobilize the brain is developed, even hits that appear minor can cause serious brain damage. My opinion is that the way to preserve the game is to be honest with parents. This game is potentially dangerous and there really isn't anything that we can do to make it safer than it already is. Informed consent. Provide parents with the facts, free of spin and emotion. If parents still allow their children to play, then they assume the risks inherent to a violent game. |
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Post by somecoach on Aug 16, 2016 1:15:33 GMT -6
1. I am blessed with a very well funded program and we also have the latest new helmets
2. Depends on the kid. The "dudes" will have to be carried out on a stretcher and restrained before they leave the field for injury... it's just they way they are. Not advocating it, just telling it how it is.
3. I'll leave it to the science guys. I have questioned this too, Kind of like how in old war films you would see soldiers without helmet straps buckled, after looking it up, they said it was the fear was that a shock wave from an explosion would kill soldiers by CONCUSSION (hmmmm) because the chinstrap would bring the head with the direction of the shock. Therefore if you left it unbuckled your helmet would go flying but your head wouldn't. So the Army came out with straps that would break off upon impact. (Maybe a vet on hear can clear the waters on this one) Kind of comparing apples to oranges but you catch my drift.
4. If they really have a medical problem it is on the Pediatrician for botching up the check up.
But we all have "that group of kids" who "find" a way to be "injured".
5. As a program we did a great job last year of limiting the entire program to 1 concussion (varsity running back who had a bad habit of lowering his own head). We did not even go to the ground in practice.
This year we are going to go to the ground in tackling with an emphasis on hawk tackling as well as keeping the head out of the game.
I think the no helmet idea is cool.
There is a "seahawk tackling" video on youtube of this with Pete Carroll narrating where they show some drill on it.
Having some experience in MMA/Brazilian Jiu Jistsu, millions of people are thrown onto "Judo" mats daily without getting concussed.
With that being said maybe if you teach the kids how to "back bump" (pro wrestling term for it) you can have a program wide tackling circuit on the wrestling mat focusing on tackling without pads on as you explained, you can even do it in the off season to get kids ready for contact!
Just like any other technique in football, if you practice it and rep it, the kids will get better at it.
So make it an emphasis for your coaching staff to correct helmet to helmet contact and prevent it.
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Post by tabs52 on Aug 16, 2016 4:02:15 GMT -6
In the past couple of years, I had more kids come and complain of headaches then ever before, some might be legit but others know that this was an easy way out of practice. As soon as a kid says anything about their they go right to the trainer, I'm covering my ass. Over the last two years, I think we might of had one concussion, from a player that does not have a history of concussions. We had a few players who had a history of them. I feel most important is education and the stark reality that your son can have a chance of a concussion and that we will do everything to prevent it.
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Post by 42falcon on Aug 16, 2016 6:14:02 GMT -6
Ok maybe my take is different bc of how we run our program.
Concussions are real! No kids are not prone to them more now VS 10 years ago, we are not softer now.
1) game is faster / kids are bigger so hits are harder
2) violent contact has been sensationalized by media: ESPN, NFL Network etc, so more kids are looking to make those hits.
3) awareness is way up. In the past a headache or seeing stars was normal, don't be a pu$$y suck it up and play. We know now that's not ok.
4) we put accelerometers in each helmet to measure impact / force of each hit. We also wear guardian caps , yes we do tackling circuts and low contact drills. We also don't go live in practice, when I played HS ball in the 90's everyday was live contact...
So there are not "more" conclusions, in fact I bet there are fewer bc of technology & changing practice methodology. But in some cases there are still a lot, we just became aware of them.
Sounds like the OP is at the tip of the iceberg
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jaydub66
Sophomore Member
Varsity D-Line Coach
Posts: 223 
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Post by jaydub66 on Aug 16, 2016 6:33:16 GMT -6
We had 1 concussion last year from a kid tripping running back to the huddle in practice (No joke). 45-50 kids and 1 concussion, no "bell rung" or anything moments even when it was a sketchy play and I asked, "you ok, looked like a funky hit" and they were all good.
We teach the rugby tackle, we don't have tackling drills on one another other than form fit, we only have 1 day during practice where we tackle and it's on Starting D vs Scout O, the rest of the week is just wrap up. We preach technique over flashy big hits.
I sit kids who don't tackle right. 2 greek gods rode pine because they tackled in a very dangerous way. More coaches need to do this, I know it's hard to do but for the game and for the kids, you need to teach them, "you play the right way or you don't play." They can't endanger themselves or others because of their lack of ability to be coached how to tackle.
I think the numbers are up because, much like autism, there isn't a specific causing spikes, we're just recognizing and diagnosing it more effectively. The science is better.
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Post by jrk5150 on Aug 16, 2016 7:09:40 GMT -6
I've often thought that the helmet technology is actually making things worse.
30 years ago, it HURT to get hit in the head. I remember head butting someone after a big play, and thinking WTF, I'm not doing that again. Pain is valuable - it tells your body to stop doing that. You kept your head out of hits when you were going too fast because it would freakin hurt and you knew it. But these new helmets - I put my son's on last year, and banged my head against a radiator, and didn't feel a thing. So basically, you feel nothing...until you're injured. That's not good. That gives kids a feeling of invulnerability right up until they're concussed.
Obviously that's not scientific, just an observation and opinion.
I also think the headache is a tough one. New helmet (not used to it and tighter perhaps than in the past because we're fitting them correctly now), hot weather, running around. I can't remember ever NOT having one in August. That doesn't = concussion, but now that's what kids think because we're (rightfully so) educating them. I know coaching youth I have kids with headaches every day. I'm extremely careful with it, but if I sat every kid with (just) a headache, we wouldn't ever practice. Headache after contact - have a seat. Just a headache out of the blue? Go drink some water and check on him in 5 minutes.
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Post by coachwoodall on Aug 16, 2016 8:00:20 GMT -6
We as coaches MUST stop saying that we have the best helmets..etc... to help prevent concussions. Helmet DO NOT prevent concussions
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Post by funkfriss on Aug 16, 2016 8:48:07 GMT -6
We as coaches MUST stop saying that we have the best helmets..etc... to help prevent concussions. Helmet DO NOT prevent concussions I agree and I don't say it ever, however this what other adults think and are therefore telling their kids. I hated the Virginia Tech study that came out a few years back rating the helmets. Now everybody thinks the Speed will save them from anything. Anybody watch the NFL? These are professionals whose bodies are worth millions and many still use the old Revo model not to mention other brands besides the concussion saving King Riddell. Not to mention they play with loose fitting, one strap buckled helmets. |
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Post by 19delta on Aug 16, 2016 9:10:14 GMT -6
We as coaches MUST stop saying that we have the best helmets..etc... to help prevent concussions. Helmet DO NOT prevent concussions I agree and I don't say it ever, however this what other adults think and are therefore telling their kids. I hated the Virginia Tech study that came out a few years back rating the helmets. Now everybody thinks the Speed will save them from anything. Anybody watch the NFL? These are professionals whose bodies are worth millions and many still use the old Revo model not to mention other brands besides the concussion saving King Riddell. Not to mention they play with loose fitting, one strap buckled helmets. Again...I think this is why football equipment suppliers, coaching organizations, and high school, collegiate, and professional athletic associations should be promoting the idea of informed consent and not trying to make football "safer". Football is an inherently violent game and is currently as safe as modern technology and coaching practices can make it. The only way to make football "safe" in the sense that the potential for a brain injury is significantly lessened or eliminated is to so radically change the rules of the game that what you end up with is NOT the game that we know. That's not to say that the efforts to develop technologies that can be objectively proven to reduce or eliminate brain injuries should be discarded. If anything, the NFHS, NCAA, and NFL should be encouraging and funding that research. Humans are inventive and innovative. There are few problems that can't be overcome by human ingenuity. But I believe we are being disingenuous when we allow the "safer helmet" myth to be perpetrated. Helmets don't prevent brain injuries. It's not what they are designed to do. Informed consent. By participating in the game of football, parents and athletes recognize and accept that it is a violent game with the potential for brain injury. In my opinion, that's where it should begin and end. |
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Post by 19delta on Aug 16, 2016 9:15:06 GMT -6
We as coaches MUST stop saying that we have the best helmets..etc... to help prevent concussions. Helmet DO NOT prevent concussions We should also stop using the term "concussion". The term we should be using is brain injury because a player does not need to have a concussion to suffer a brain injury. |
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Post by Chris Clement on Aug 19, 2016 17:31:06 GMT -6
... 3. Question for @chrisclement or other math/science nerds (say that with respect) out there. If you have a rather free flowing substance (the brain) in a hard shell (skull) and you put that into another hard shell (helmet) would loosening the outer shell (helmet) allow more force to be absorbed by the inner shell (skull) and therefore less on the free flowing substance (brain)? Basically I'm questioning if tighter helmets are actually not as safe as helmets that are loose fitting. ... The question is a good bit more nuanced than can be explained here. There's two hard layers and two soft layers surrounding the brain. The hard layers don't absorb any force, practically speaking. They distribute force over a great area and protect you from pointy things. If you make the outer soft layer (helmet padding) bigger, you will reduce the force that ends up acting on the brain, which is the principle behind Guardian caps, but the helmet has to be practical, and you have to consider torquing effects, because helmets are primarily designed to cover the most dangerous injuries involved in head contact: skull fractures and neck injuries. Concussions are way less bad than skull or spinal injuries. Something the size of a Great Gazoo helmet could probably cut down on a lot of concussions because it would drastically reduce the acceleration of the brain. But there isn't a clear diagnostic method for concussions, or even a solid definition of what "counts" as a concussion. Awareness or changes in diagnostic criteria can distort measurements. There were no people diagnosed as "autistic" 200 years ago, that doesn't mean they didn't exist in the same proportion as they do now, they just weren't classified as such. Newer helmets pretty demonstrably reduce forces to the skull. It's impossible to measure exactly how that affects brain acceleration, but it definitely helps. If the helmet is loose it risks coming off, and the ability of the helmet to absorb force is the product of the thickness of the padding and the material with which said padding is made. So putting a helmet that is identical but two sizes bigger on a kid isn't going to change either of those things. |
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