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Post by 60zgo on Apr 14, 2016 18:42:12 GMT -6
How many of you are in states where private and public schools compete in the same classifications?
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Post by fantom on Apr 14, 2016 18:59:18 GMT -6
How many of you are in states where private and public schools compete in the same classifications? We've never had privates in our association until this year. After they threatened a lawsuit we accepted one and will have to accept others if they abide by association rules.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 14, 2016 19:08:16 GMT -6
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Post by **** on Apr 14, 2016 19:15:17 GMT -6
MO and KS have private and public in the same classes.
It's not that big of a deal here.
Nobody can beat Webb City or Lamar and they're both public.
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Post by jbfootball on Apr 14, 2016 22:06:19 GMT -6
Oklahoma has them in the same classes.
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Post by 60zgo on Apr 15, 2016 7:11:33 GMT -6
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Post by 60zgo on Apr 15, 2016 7:13:35 GMT -6
We have previously competed together in the season and playoffs, but things have gotten pretty controversial the last few years. All of the solutions lack intelligent thought or any form of compromise.
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Post by hammer66 on Apr 15, 2016 7:19:30 GMT -6
Pennsylvania here. Since the Charter/Philadelphia were included in the state playoffs system they pretty much have dominated. Went to see one of our local teams play IMHOTEP Charter in the EASTERN finals.....it wasn't even close to being a fair situation.
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jens519
Probationary Member
Posts: 10
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Post by jens519 on Apr 15, 2016 7:46:39 GMT -6
MO and KS have private and public in the same classes. It's not that big of a deal here. Nobody can beat Webb City or Lamar and they're both public. Rockhurst and CBC are always tuff outs in the playoffs too. The low classes in Nebraska the private schools will dominate, but the larger classes is not as big of a deal. Our public schools are all open enrollment the same as private so we have to recruit the same kids and that keeps it fairly balanced.
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Post by **** on Apr 15, 2016 7:56:51 GMT -6
MO and KS have private and public in the same classes. It's not that big of a deal here. Nobody can beat Webb City or Lamar and they're both public. Rockhurst and CBC are always tuff outs in the playoffs too. The low classes in Nebraska the private schools will dominate, but the larger classes is not as big of a deal. Our public schools are all open enrollment the same as private so we have to recruit the same kids and that keeps it fairly balanced. Rockhurst is on the down slide (were blown out by webb back to back years) but CBC is almost always a top 3 team on the STL side. Problem is they don't play the competition that all the KC teams do, and usually lose to a Kansas City area public school in the ship. Valle Catholic and John Burroughs (Ezekiel Elliott's school) are good at the lower levels but they go through spurts. Even with Elliott, JB didn't win a championship.
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Post by The Lunch Pail on Apr 15, 2016 8:50:52 GMT -6
Rockhurst and CBC are always tuff outs in the playoffs too. The low classes in Nebraska the private schools will dominate, but the larger classes is not as big of a deal. Our public schools are all open enrollment the same as private so we have to recruit the same kids and that keeps it fairly balanced. Rockhurst is on the down slide (were blown out by webb back to back years) but CBC is almost always a top 3 team on the STL side. Problem is they don't play the competition that all the KC teams do, and usually lose to a Kansas City area public school in the ship. Valle Catholic and John Burroughs (Ezekiel Elliott's school) are good at the lower levels but they go through spurts. Even with Elliott, JB didn't win a championship. John Burroughs will still make the semifinals even in its worst years. I would still much rather play them than have to play Maryville, Blair Oaks, Lamar, or even 2012-2014 California. And those are all public schools. Private schools aren't a huge problem in MO, although it is in other sports. The nations #1 basketball player in the nation of 2017 lives roughly an hour from where he goes to school, which is a new Catholic school just 10 minutes north of where I coach. I find it unfair that him and all of his friends and siblings (all D1 prospects) are going to school there and we get it handed to us in the district championship every year. Why should a bunch of D1 prospects be playing against little rural schools with an enrollment of 400?
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CoachKB
Probationary Member
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Post by CoachKB on Apr 15, 2016 9:05:40 GMT -6
In NC the Catholic schools are allowed to play in the same leagues as public schools, but the non catholic Private schools have their own association. The Catholic Schools cant offer any scholarships full or partial and if you transfer to one of those schools you have to sit out a year.
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Post by John Knight on Apr 15, 2016 9:20:37 GMT -6
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Post by hammer66 on Apr 15, 2016 9:45:25 GMT -6
Rockhurst is on the down slide (were blown out by webb back to back years) but CBC is almost always a top 3 team on the STL side. Problem is they don't play the competition that all the KC teams do, and usually lose to a Kansas City area public school in the ship. Valle Catholic and John Burroughs (Ezekiel Elliott's school) are good at the lower levels but they go through spurts. Even with Elliott, JB didn't win a championship. John Burroughs will still make the semifinals even in its worst years. I would still much rather play them than have to play Maryville, Blair Oaks, Lamar, or even 2012-2014 California. And those are all public schools. Private schools aren't a huge problem in MO, although it is in other sports. The nations #1 basketball player in the nation of 2017 lives roughly an hour from where he goes to school, which is a new Catholic school just 10 minutes north of where I coach. I find it unfair that him and all of his friends and siblings (all D1 prospects) are going to school there and we get it handed to us in the district championship every year. Why should a bunch of D1 prospects be playing against little rural schools with an enrollment of 400? that's an easy answer...its how things are now. Kids transfer in and out all the time to suit there needs .... and the needs of the parents. It really is a shame. Nobody wants to wait thier turn to play or work through adversity to build something. I blame ESPN, Twitter and the internet. Every kid is looking to get his name out there and be the next big thing.
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Post by 60zgo on Apr 15, 2016 10:32:37 GMT -6
It would seem that there are not many solid answers.
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Post by wingtol on Apr 15, 2016 10:34:11 GMT -6
Pennsylvania here. Since the Charter/Philadelphia were included in the state playoffs system they pretty much have dominated. Went to see one of our local teams play IMHOTEP Charter in the EASTERN finals.....it wasn't even close to being a fair situation. You know it's bad when the Catholic schools are calling Imhotep out for their recruiting! LOL
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Post by hammer66 on Apr 15, 2016 10:57:13 GMT -6
Pennsylvania here. Since the Charter/Philadelphia were included in the state playoffs system they pretty much have dominated. Went to see one of our local teams play IMHOTEP Charter in the EASTERN finals.....it wasn't even close to being a fair situation. You know it's bad when the Catholic schools are calling Imhotep out for their recruiting! LOL that team was LOADED! Like no other I have ever seen. Beat the SAUCON VALLEY team that pretty much had there way with everyone they faced. Just a shame to see a public school finish season in that fashion.
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Post by wingtol on Apr 15, 2016 11:06:35 GMT -6
You know it's bad when the Catholic schools are calling Imhotep out for their recruiting! LOL that team was LOADED! Like no other I have ever seen. Beat the SAUCON VALLEY team that pretty much had there way with everyone they faced. Just a shame to see a public school finish season in that fashion. They beat our local private power house in Hershey. They were unbelievable. Technically Tep is a public school since they are a charter and payed for by the tax payers dime. Basketball is 10x's worse with the Philly charters.
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Post by olinedude on Apr 15, 2016 11:22:37 GMT -6
Oklahoma has them in the same classes. And it is a perfect example of why private schools should not be playing public schools, especially based on enrollment. Texas only has a few and they are automatically in the highest classification with some enrollment boundary rules.
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Post by 60zgo on Apr 15, 2016 12:38:23 GMT -6
Went and looked up the multipliers. Seems logical and addresses most of the issues that public schools have. It would probably never work in Louisiana.
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Post by tanavea on Apr 15, 2016 13:53:14 GMT -6
Here in Utah, Public Schools and Private Schools compete in the same classification. But there isn't a Private School big enough to compete in the top 2 Classes. (5A, and 4A)
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Post by jcamerot on Apr 15, 2016 14:02:51 GMT -6
Wisconsin is a mix of public and private with 7 divisions based strictly on enrollment. Not a problem, after all, nobody recruits---do they
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Post by pvogel on Apr 15, 2016 14:04:35 GMT -6
Never been in a state that separated them (CA,WV,FL). Believe they should be though. Nothing wrong with it. Theyre just different situations and different schools.
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Post by jbfootball on Apr 15, 2016 14:16:42 GMT -6
Oklahoma has them in the same classes. And it is a perfect example of why private schools should not be playing public schools, especially based on enrollment. Texas only has a few and they are automatically in the highest classification with some enrollment boundary rules. They have a multiplier and "Success rule." If a private school is in the top 8 of any sport for 3 out of 5 years they move up a class. It has affected a couple football schools, but mostly basketball and baseball are the sports it affects.
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Post by 44dlcoach on Apr 15, 2016 14:20:50 GMT -6
In NV we don't have many private schools, definitely not enough to make them play in their own league. We do have arguably the best one in the nation and I think they've won 7 straight championships, none of which were close.
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jets79
Probationary Member
Posts: 9
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Post by jets79 on Apr 15, 2016 17:27:00 GMT -6
Most compete in different classifications, however a few public school leagues let a few private school teams in.
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Post by carookie on Apr 15, 2016 19:04:43 GMT -6
I am in So Cal, at a private school (have been on both sides of this). Our 6 team league is all private schools; but when we get into playoffs 1/2 the schools in our classification are public and 1/2 private.
I think most people hear private school and think, "recruiting of the top athletes, having just a stacked squad year in and year out, unfair advantages" but this is not the case in most instances. We are a HS of approx 275-300 annually, with about 40-50 international students who never have even seen a football. We do not actively recruit, and have fairly rigid academic and behavioral standards. We hope to run a good program and that kids will want to come to our school; but we, like most other private schools, arent out there poaching players and breaking the rules.
Moreover, when we get to the playoffs we are usually at a disadvantage when we run into the public schools in our division. Though they tend to be smaller (sub 1200), they still have a numbers advantage- which is the most consistently legitimate variable. Think if you got to match up with schools less than half your size for the title.
Now that is not to say there arent the stereotypical private school football factories around, or even worse the private schools that are trying to become one and try every trick in the book (one of those down the road just got caught). But I would add that the way things are with public schools now, its not that much different- lots of recruitment and sly tactics with the public schools too.
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Post by pvogel on Apr 15, 2016 19:14:46 GMT -6
we have fairly rigid academic and behavioral standards. We hope to run a good program and that kids will want to come to our school Ding ding ding! There we go. Thats the point of this argument. The bottom 50% of a private school don't even come close to comparing to the bottom 50% of a public school. Thats the major difference. And I dont blame you for it. But its so evident that the schools themselves are SO different. Totally different pool of kids. The enrollment comparisons are null and void. Thats why public and private should compete in different classifications.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 15, 2016 19:19:56 GMT -6
Went and looked up the multipliers. Seems logical and addresses most of the issues that public schools have. It would probably never work in Louisiana. Actually, the LHSAA did the opposite several years ago when they forced the "play in class" restriction, forcing Evangel Christian and John Curtis to play in their class (1A and 2A respectively, then 2A and 2A I believe) with other schools of 300 or less enrollment. I personally believe the thought process was to try and magnify the fact that they had 4-7 BCS scholarship athletes signing each year, that their O lines averaged 280lbs etc...and other schools their size lined up 200lbs across and had a FCS caliber player every couple of years. Also I think the idea was to try and "devalue" the brand of football to make it less attractive. Prior to the restriction, ECA actually used the fact that it played in 5A as a tool to ensure that it was attractive to the best athletes in their area.
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Post by wolverine55 on Apr 15, 2016 19:37:41 GMT -6
we have fairly rigid academic and behavioral standards. We hope to run a good program and that kids will want to come to our school Ding ding ding! There we go. Thats the point of this argument. The bottom 50% of a private school don't even come close to comparing to the bottom 50% of a public school. Thats the major difference. And I dont blame you for it. But its so evident that the schools themselves are SO different. Totally different pool of kids. The enrollment comparisons are null and void. Thats why public and private should compete in different classifications. I DON'T support separating private and public schools but as much as people make a big deal about recruiting, I think an AD I worked for in the past said it best: "The advantage private schools have isn't the students they have, it's the students they don't have." Again, not for separate classes but there should be some sort of multiplier in place to somewhat account for this difference.
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