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Post by chipprjonz10 on Apr 9, 2016 8:01:32 GMT -6
I believe the weather plays a role because you can't just go outside and practice in the winter. The gyms are also hard to get practice time with basketball and off season baseball occupying the gyms from after school until very late. It is also much easier to get a basketball and practice with others or play by yourself almost anywhere inside or outside. Football just seems less convenient to find a field and amount of kids to play a pick up game on their own. I also feel that basketball is less demanding and less learning and kids will take the easy way out. Economics also plays a role. Just my opinion and I live and coach 2 hours north of NYC
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Post by ccscoach on Apr 11, 2016 11:34:04 GMT -6
I coach in the Binghamton area and part of the problem is emphasis people don't put the time and money into football that they do in other parts of the country. The other problem is that schools are small in many states they have regional or county high schools in New York it's basically towns. Other factors the state has a 9 game regular season and didn't have a state playoff until 1993. Finally the state has ridiculous rules for there sub varsity teams an example is for years are 7th and 8th grade teams could only run a 62 on defense and two tight formations. www.syracuse.com/orangefootball/index.ssf/2014/11/scott_shafer_damn_shame_high_school_football.html Final part is declining population in the section I live in we used to have huge factories like IBM and Protocor and Gamble. As those companies left so did those families and athletes. It's not perfect and it's not great. Some of the top programs in our section are Chenango Forks, Maine Endwell, Tioga, and Walton.
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Post by bigm0073 on Apr 11, 2016 12:09:07 GMT -6
I do believe what is being lost in this conversation too is the demographic make up.. Especially in the Lower Mid Atlantic South East Region (Florida, Alabama, Louisiana, Carolinas, Virginia, Georgia, Tennessee, Mississippi..). States like Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi have over 30% of state population African American. PA under 10%, Mass under 6%, Vermont, New Hamphire... etc...
I think this can also play a role as well.
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Post by carookie on Apr 11, 2016 12:25:52 GMT -6
I do believe what is being lost in this conversation too is the demographic make up.. Especially in the Lower Mid Atlantic South East Region (Florida, Alabama, Louisiana, Carolinas, Virginia, Georgia, Tennessee, Mississippi..). States like Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi have over 30% of state population African American. PA under 10%, Mass under 6%, Vermont, New Hamphire... etc... I think this can also play a role as well. Maybe, but NY state has over 18% African American population; significantly more than say either Texas or California. Yet produces far less D1 football players per capita (at least based on most studies I have looked up, here is one: www.footballstudyhall.com/2013/9/11/4718442/college-football-state-texas-california-florida)In addition to what you've written, I think we've hit on a lot of good points here that address possibly why: Weather/Climate % of population in cities (lack of space and $) Football culture (which I think may be derived from the other two)
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Post by wingtol on Apr 11, 2016 12:40:30 GMT -6
I do believe what is being lost in this conversation too is the demographic make up.. Especially in the Lower Mid Atlantic South East Region (Florida, Alabama, Louisiana, Carolinas, Virginia, Georgia, Tennessee, Mississippi..). States like Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi have over 30% of state population African American. PA under 10%, Mass under 6%, Vermont, New Hamphire... etc... I think this can also play a role as well. I don't think it hurts PA football. Sure we aren't one of those mythical top 5 states for football that people use to talk about but think there are some high end players in PA that keep it at least in a top 10 football states. According to your logical NY should be better since their percentage is 16%
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Post by bigm0073 on Apr 11, 2016 15:13:32 GMT -6
I am not saying it is the end all be all... By no means lot of factors...
But I do not think it is something you can just discount... no ... fact is that is apart of the equation... The numbers of african americans playing Division IA Football and in the NFL is substantial.
But other factors too help the south.. In the southeast they have good weather... spring ball... spring practice... football important in south... all of those factors...
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Post by wingtol on Apr 11, 2016 15:55:38 GMT -6
I was just offended that you mentioned PA in conjunction with states that are traditionally not football rich states
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 11, 2016 18:25:14 GMT -6
I am not saying it is the end all be all... By no means lot of factors... But I do not think it is something you can just discount... no ... fact is that is apart of the equation... The numbers of african americans playing Division IA Football and in the NFL is substantial. But other factors too help the south.. In the southeast they have good weather... spring ball... spring practice... football important in south... all of those factors... I know what you are trying to say, but I don't think it is a correct assumption. Don't confuse talented football players with "good football". Ouchita Parish (a county in every other state) has a Black population of about 37% and a white population of about 60% and is well known as one of the stronger areas of football in the country. Contrast that with Orleans Parish, which has just about the opposite demographics (60% Black, 35% White). Orleans has lots of individual talent, but generally the football played by the public schools (which have a MUCH higher than 60% black population) is a step or two below what is played in North Louisiana.
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Post by kmiller716 on Apr 11, 2016 19:56:32 GMT -6
I play HS ball in WNY, played college ball in the south, coached HS in CNY and now back down south. It is night and day, lived it all, and the #1 reason is CULTURE.
The dominant programs in NY are continually strong because of a nucleus of good coaches and admin and they have a system that parents and players have bought into. Look into the perennial state programs in NY and you will have a staff of great coaches who have been together for some time. It is really a nice setup for some strong programs. However....
Administration/unions have killed the competitive nature of HS sports in NY. There are a good number of piss poor program s with piss poor coaches and they will have the job until they decide to retire or get arrested for sleeping with a student and/or stealing money from the school. Unions make it difficult to hire from outside so if the above happens, a piss poor assistant inside the program is given the job because administration does not want to go to bat versus the union when an outsider wants the job but Joe Shmoe from inside applies as well. They don't value sports and do not want to deal with all of that.
So what has happened? The private schools have taken off in NY. Parents with half a brain see what is going on with the poor program in the area and have the money to pay 15k per year for their athlete to be in a winning program and get recruited. Unless they happen to live in an area with a strong program. Down here, people sell homes and buy into the districts. It is insane, but hey, we have a large number of kids going to play big time ball. Football is a ticket to something bigger and better. In NY, it is something to do between mid August and (for most) Halloween.
Our entire sports budget here in NC is provided for by gate money (typically football and bball). So if you don't win, the school doesn't make money, and you are given an apple and a road map (teaching job and all). So you better bet I am going to bust my ass as a coach because I have a family to provide for and I love coaching this game. Sure as hell don't do it for the money in this state. With that, I have run into and coached with/against some pretty damn good staffs down here. Truly remarkable and they are who they are because they are in it for all the right reasons. Quite frankly for most, status quo is the way with NY football. I was blessed to coach in some quality programs in NY, but from my experience, there are lots of coaches, players and admin who just do what was done yesterday because, well, get tenure, coast until your 55, and retire with nearly a 6 figure pension. Just my two cents.
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Post by bigm0073 on Apr 11, 2016 22:05:22 GMT -6
Hey born and raised and PA.. Play my high school ball in PA... Played on some real good teams 11-0.. 9-1-1...
No slight to PA at all.. I played against some real men and powerhouse programs in PA..
Unions - teacher unions in northeast do not help the cause either.. you are right too.. Hard to get teachers / coaches out once they are in. Programs can get stale.. good points.. I bet that does hurt NY in some areas too..
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Post by bird0660 on Apr 12, 2016 11:02:27 GMT -6
Do you think its possible it is due to the amount of schools that are viable football schools in the area. In NY you have a SUNY (state) schools, Buffalo, Syracuse, Cornell, Fordham, Columbia and maybe a few more im not thinking of. In say Georgia, you have 10-20 big football schools (D1 through D2) plus the proximity to carolinas and all of their programs etc. that recruit the area and make football a viable option. NJ seems to be the anomaly as we have Rutgers, a bunch of D3s and Temple close by, yet still churn out some kids (but the majority of those kids are from certain programs that are tradition rich).
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Post by raymul313 on Apr 12, 2016 11:29:40 GMT -6
Here are all of the schools in NY that have football by level:
FBS - DI (3 schools) Syracuse Army Buffalo
FCS - DI-AA (8 schools) Stony Brook Albany Columbia Cornell Wagner Fordham Colgate Marist
D-II (2 schools) LIU-Post Pace
D-III (17 schools) SUNY Maritime Hamilton St. John Fisher Ithaca Buffalo State Utica Alfred Brockport Hartwick Morrisville Cortland Alfred State Hobart Saint Lawrence RPI (Rensassler Polytechnic Institute) Rochester Union
JUCO (6 schools) Erie Community College Hudson Valley Community College ASA College Globe Institute of Technology Monroe College Nassau Community College
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Post by kmiller716 on Apr 12, 2016 12:54:47 GMT -6
Do you think its possible it is due to the amount of schools that are viable football schools in the area. In NY you have a SUNY (state) schools, Buffalo, Syracuse, Cornell, Fordham, Columbia and maybe a few more im not thinking of. In say Georgia, you have 10-20 big football schools (D1 through D2) plus the proximity to carolinas and all of their programs etc. that recruit the area and make football a viable option. NJ seems to be the anomaly as we have Rutgers, a bunch of D3s and Temple close by, yet still churn out some kids (but the majority of those kids are from certain programs that are tradition rich). I put myself in the shoes of a college coach. I believe Scott Shafer said it the best, calling the football schedule a "damn shame". I played varsity as a sophomore and when I was finished, had 25 varsity games under my belt. Here in NC, our graduating players who played since 10th grade had 40 Varsity games under their belts. Are those stats on average, no, but it is real. Are you recruiting a kid that has 25 games or 40 games of experience? I do not even want to begin on offseason either. College coaches are also looking at the talent of the competition. I coached on a staff that played CBA out of Syracuse every year, when they had Paulus at QB with Bruce Williams and Lavar Lobdell at WR. USC (sorry Carolina guys), the real USC, called up our HC for film of us. Not to recruit any of our kids, but to see what kind of DB's the WR's were up against. They contacted every HS on CBA's schedule for film. They found real quick that his competition was subpar at best. They ended up at SU. George O'leary had a connection with CNY and with our HC at the time. He would come up every year. He looked for big lineman under the radar. That's all. He laughed at us when we tried talking up one of our top players, accolades through the roof, not for scholarship, but for a preferred walk on spot...did not even want to see a second of film. He went to Wagner. I am not sure if the number of schools in the area would help because the interest has to be proven by coaches actually seeking to recruit NY kids. I sure as hell am not making visits to NY to find players that in turn directly impacts my own family's livelihood if I am a FBS or FCS coach with the current state of football in NY. Until the state decides to listen to the right coaches and AD's in NY and administration can let go of piss poor coaches more easily without threat of getting sued, nothing is going to change the CULTURE. It is sad. I miss the true blue collar mentality that I left in NY. Fellas in the NE (NY, PA, OH, etc.) know what I am talking about. I had some players that on paper, may not attract much attention, and some that should, but were old school in every aspect because the mentality of "roll your sleeves, tie up your boots, and deal with it" existed in the home, modeled by the parents. Real "run thru the wall" kind of kids. I do not know if it is the area I am currently in (suburban and white collar households) but I do not see those kids as much as I did in NY and miss them dearly.
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Post by mrjvi on Apr 14, 2016 10:12:20 GMT -6
Lots of good reasons mentioned. I coach in upstate NY (north of Albany). We don't have at least a 10 game regular schedule. Only 8. We are usually done before the 1st days of November (unless playoff team). Our school has too many sports. (22 varsity) Kids absolutely specialize in single sports. Coaches encourage it. As a result very little year round strength training. It's not part of most of the programs either because they can win around here at times. Their team sucks less than the other schools. My best teams seem to be directly proportional to the amount of multi-sport athletes I have playing. When there are few, we are just good. Credit to our staff. Overall our "individual" sports-golf, tennis, skiing, cross-country, etc. do much better than the team sports. Even though when we have a great team people come out of the woodwork to support us, football isn't any more important, and actually less, than most other sports. My favorite saying is very appropriate here. Not everyone can play football. It's too hard.
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Post by somecoach on Sept 23, 2016 13:30:52 GMT -6
I know I am reviving a dead thread here, but i feel it should come from the horse's mouth,
One reason is due to population density there are no "countys" there are 5 boroughs and areas within those boroughs.
On Staten Island alone (which many consider the "suburb", we have roughly 473,000 people. With that being said, somewhere in that number of people there should be some blue chipper highschool football players... right?, well on staten island alone, (with a population Density of roughly 8163 people per square mile) there are 11 (4 private 7 public) teams on the island within 57.92 square miles, therefore the talent gets spread out. The other issue is school from Manhattan, Jersey, and Brooklyn also pick from our pool of potential players.
Due to this, When it comes to the public school system there is virtually NO pride in attending. You are just a number in the system drawn in due to your district you fall into.
Private Catholic school really is not that better.
Due to this football just isn't in our culture.
You have to understand, the old expression "the city that never sleeps" is very real.
In the "suburban" areas such as Staten Island, Long Island, and specific areas of Brooklyn and Queens, many of the kids parents have a job in manhattan and have a torturous commute to their 9-5 job. After getting home at 7 or 8 from work on a Friday, they have better things to do then go see the football team of their alma mater play. Especially when their kid is never going to play for them. (and the sad thing is, I have coached teams where the parents don't even watch their kid PLAY!!!)
On the small business scale, Not a single business would close its doors so the owner could watch his alma mater play a highschool football game, its just business as usual, unless his son is on the team, he could careless if the team folded.
Tottenville of Staten Island has an enrollment of roughly 4000 students (some where in the mid 40's for largest in the country), and has been to the City championship at Yankee stadium 2 out of the last 4 years, and other than the current students, parents, and Football alumni, the (EXTREMELY LARGE) non football alumni in the district feels they have no interest in the team.
As for the Yuppies, yuppies DON'T HAVE KIDS. And if they do they will slowly make their way back to the suburbs, and slowly become like their parents in which they set out not to be....lol
As for inner city teams and fields, I have played and coached PRIVATE SCHOOL GAMES in a PUBLIC PARK... sheer insanity for the tuition these parents pay.
Weather is another huge factor, we can get 1-2 snow games in our 8 game regular season, it really hurts baseball here since they can't play year round.
As for "bad football" i will never speak bad about how other programs are run, but to quote a college coach "NY football is in the stone ages"
As for state regulations and the War on football... that rant is too political for this forum
So in conclusion, high school football will never be what it is in Middle America up here, it is just virtually impossible due logistics.
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