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Post by blb on May 7, 2006 14:41:35 GMT -6
Men, think about these two propositions, and respond:
a) 51% or more of teams are over-coached.
b) "Burn out" is a bigger problem for HS athletes (football players, specifically, for this forum) than under-training.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2006 15:36:58 GMT -6
I really don't know about A. It seems like, at least in my brief experience, I have seen more talented teams with bad coaching than the other way around.
I definitly agree with B. With summer programs in all states expanding to allow more opportunities like camps, 7-on-7s, "contact days", etc, I think some athletes feel they can't be kids anymore. This is really true when considering athletes who try to do two or even three sports and the head coaches are all demanding time over the summer.
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Post by coachcalande on May 7, 2006 16:00:14 GMT -6
I agree with both strongly, when i see over coaching...coaches doing way too much with their athletes, way too much for their level of play...often way too much scheme and trickery to disguise scheme and not enough "play football"....alot of teams beat themselves...thats it in a nutshell. I ask myself how its possible that a team can have 7 coverages yet still has "too many men on the field" for extra points or punts....stuff like that.
the second part...yup, these are still kids...it had better be fun. nowadays i see football losing kids to basketball, hockey and lacrosse...kids say "i am going to concentrate on basketball" or "fall ball" baseball...why? not enough "fun" for some. anyhow, fun to me comes from winning and being part of a family/team. I think you have to make the hard work and conditioning fun every day.
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Post by groundchuck on May 7, 2006 17:07:14 GMT -6
Men, think about these two propositions, and respond: a) 51% or more of teams are over-coached. b) "Burn out" is a bigger problem for HS athletes (football players, specifically, for this forum) than under-training. A) I was once told this by a coach with over 300 wins: When you have talent you can do alot but don't need too. Just let them play and don't overthink the game. B) Totally agree. Sometimes I think Wisconsin has it right with almost zero contact except for the wt room. Did I get that right cheeseheads? (I use that term in a positive way) Illinois is similar with just 25 contact days. In Minnesota we can have the whole summer and by the time you factor in summer league hoops and legion/VFW baseball it is way too much.
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Post by coachjd on May 7, 2006 17:14:57 GMT -6
does wisconsin still have the 7 on 7 leagues in the spring? I know they used to.
Way too much emphasis is put on all the 7 on 7 and team camps and not enough on strength and conditioning.
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Post by rhsathletics3 on May 7, 2006 19:57:36 GMT -6
If you don't get 'em out for football over the summer and require it, the "ATHLETES" will just go play summer basketball with the basketball coach.
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Post by coachjd on May 7, 2006 20:42:19 GMT -6
in Minnesota you cannot require anything. If the state has any proof that you have influenced a athlete or a team in anyway to participate in summer workouts, camps, etc.. the coach is fined 1000.00, the school is fined 1000.00 and the coach can lose his job.
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Post by runtheball86 on May 7, 2006 21:01:55 GMT -6
Groundchuck ... you said "I was once told this by a coach with over 300 wins: When you have talent you can do alot but don't need too."
It also seems true that when you DON'T have talent you CAN'T do a lot but DO need to.
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Post by bulldog on May 7, 2006 22:08:47 GMT -6
As for B), there are at least a couple of catholic HS's here in CA that run contact camps for 4th graders! They start them weight training in 6th grade. Makes for a great recruiting tool.
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Post by airman on May 7, 2006 22:54:30 GMT -6
since I am on the wis/il border I can attest to the differences in play.
wisconsin has 4 contact days not. it can be full contact, in pads and coached. might not have been intended to be that way, however rules have loopholes. guys are running it like preseaon and getting in 3 practices. o, d and special teams.
illinois has better football as the skill level is much better do to the contact time.
wisconsin has some 7 on 7, it is not big though, like it is in other states. most schools in wi do not throw the ball so why require the kids to work on throwing is the attitude.
the wing t, power I, stack I, wishbone, 3 back powersets, double wing are the prevailing offenses you see at state. there are few teams which pass the ball. there are some I formation teams but like I said you see a lot of 3 back power(little option) and wing t. it is not uncommon to see full house t formations.
one of the bigger schools runs the tyler texas power toss sweep. they have had great success with it.
i like the idea of just a week of contact with the kids in the summer. now it is time to get paid for the week of contact.
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Post by groundchuck on May 8, 2006 7:58:21 GMT -6
Groundchuck ... you said "I was once told this by a coach with over 300 wins: When you have talent you can do alot but don't need too." It also seems true that when you DON'T have talent you CAN'T do a lot but DO need to. So true. However I still think you have to be very careful about doing too much. If you don't have talented kids I have found it was better to focus on doing a few things very well. But situations vary. You might have kids who are very smart and pick things up right away...don't need to rep concepts as much and therefore can do more. My kids...KISS.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
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Post by tedseay on May 8, 2006 8:32:54 GMT -6
It also seems true that when you DON'T have talent you CAN'T do a lot but DO need to. rtb: Yes, but as the Oracle of Tuscaloosa once said: "The best approach for inferior talent is the deception which any player can learn but which superior talent neglects."
-- Homer Smith
;D ;D ;D
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Post by Coach Huey on May 8, 2006 8:58:56 GMT -6
simple offenses are simple to stop....
be careful and walk that fine line between "simple" and "efficient"...
the language barrier is usually the biggest cause of breakdowns within a task. language barrier being defined as an individual's inability to properly comprehend & use the terms that go with a job.... solve your language barrier early...i.e. get the terminology straight, and the rules straight.... then, "simple" becomes "efficient" which allows for the "smoke & mirrors"
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Post by groundchuck on May 8, 2006 9:11:55 GMT -6
Yeah efficient is a better word than simple. With little talent IMO the best choice for the players I have worked with is to remove most of the inefficient plays. Concentrate on the ones we run well and then work on a few counters/playactions....deception.
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Post by dmp225 on May 8, 2006 10:03:07 GMT -6
i agree with both statements. High school athletes do suffer from burn-out, and most teams are over coached (thanks to technology for the coaches)
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Post by gunrun on May 8, 2006 15:18:53 GMT -6
I would agree. I worked for a once very successful coach who decided later in his career to practice 4 hrs a day to make sure his defense saw every single look multiple times. We also had a million Defensive checks that our 4.0+ GPA, two-yr starter kids at LB were blowing 20+ times a game. We went 5-12 our last two years. I think you should have a solid scheme that is easy for the kids to learn, be great fundamentally, and let the kids play ball and have fun.
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Post by phantom on May 8, 2006 15:36:37 GMT -6
What do you mean by "overcoached"? How would you tell thet they're burned out?
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Post by cqmiller on May 8, 2006 15:45:42 GMT -6
1) I have a 2 part answer to this one.
I agree that a lot of teams are "overcoached", in the sense that many coaches try to come up with a scheme to protect/stop EVERYTHING that the other team COULD DO. Many of them overload the kids with rules, and situations where the rules change, and then the kids get confused, and cannot play to their ability.
On the other hand, I believe that most players are undercoached on the technique/fundamentals side. I can't tell you how many teams I've seen that have a good Offensive Tackle, or WR, or DB that ends up being a "weak-link" on their team simply because of technique/fundamental issues. I have learned that (especially with the OL), if you teach them how to do the proper footwork, and hand placement; while giving them a simple assignment (i.e. LT ALWAYS blocks the DE on passing situations, instead of: "if the will comes to b-gap then step inside and pick up the ...., or if the Will comes to C/D gap, then step outside and pick him up....) then an "average" offensive lineman can play as an above average lineman simply because you have eliminated the confusion, and increased his confidence in his ability to do the right thing.
2) BURN OUT IS A HUGE PROBLEM for ALL coaches (on any level) I believe. I try to have a "change of pace" approach to my time with the team. I try to have the lifting be done before school. Then 1 hour of film/meetings inbetween the end of school and practice. Then I try to keep the practices to 2 hours. 2 1/2 hours is the max. Most kids can only stay focused for 2 hours anyway.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on May 8, 2006 16:10:28 GMT -6
a) 51% or more of teams are over-coached.
b) "Burn out" is a bigger problem for HS athletes (football players, specifically, for this forum) than under-training.
a) cqmiller has some good insight re: undercoaching technique and overcoaching scheme. Still, you can overcoach technique- our punter had a 44.2 yds. per punt avg. and I (and other coaches) left him alone (form is not "pretty", but he does a good job- I could only make him worse). I've overcoached a lot of kids on stance, footwork, reads in the past. The best LB I've ever had read the backfield wrong, went opposite the fullback way too much- and made the play almost all of the time. Finally after a few weeks of misreads and still making the play, I said "David... let's try this... just tackle the guy with the ball". I was a heck of a coach then.
In the off season (i.e. now) I have way to many schemes, formations, motions... come summer camp and fall we will run the same 8 plays we have always run.
b) Burn out is a worry- we are a small school, our guys work hard, put a lot of time in and almost all play 3 sports. We condition in class and summer year-round. We have do do a lot of "fun" things. I think in our situation it helps a bit that the alternative for FB weights and conditioning is farm work or manual labor, so FB has some nice "social" time attached to it as well. I worry about that more on a sub-conscious level- we always seem to peak too early (week 7 or 8) and just run out of steam in the playoffs (hard to tell when over the last 2 years we've had a total of 14 starters out for the rest of the season by playoff time).
There was a thread in the weight training section about time off- we give our guys off from now until June 1 (though we are still finishing up lifting this week)- by then they are getting kind of antsy to get back at it, which is how I want them. We don't want panic, but a little urgency is a good thing. I'm planning on giving a little more time off- maybe we will peak at the end of November rather than the end of October.
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Post by groundchuck on May 8, 2006 16:13:37 GMT -6
a) 51% or more of teams are over-coached.
b) "Burn out" is a bigger problem for HS athletes (football players, specifically, for this forum) than under-training.a) cqmiller has some good insight re: undercoaching technique and overcoaching scheme. Still, you can overcoach technique- our punter had a 44.2 yds. per punt avg. and I (and other coaches) left him alone (form is not "pretty", but he does a good job- I could only make him worse). I've overcoached a lot of kids on stance, footwork, reads in the past. The best LB I've ever had read the backfield wrong, went opposite the fullback way too much- and made the play almost all of the time. Finally after a few weeks of misreads and still making the play, I said "David... let's try this... just tackle the guy with the ball". I was a heck of a coach then. In the off season (i.e. now) I have way to many schemes, formations, motions... come summer camp and fall we will run the same 8 plays we have always run. b) Burn out is a worry- we are a small school, our guys work hard, put a lot of time in and almost all play 3 sports. We condition in class and summer year-round. We have do do a lot of "fun" things. I think in our situation it helps a bit that the alternative for FB weights and conditioning is farm work or manual labor, so FB has some nice "social" time attached to it as well. I worry about that more on a sub-conscious level- we always seem to peak too early (week 7 or 8) and just run out of steam in the playoffs (hard to tell when over the last 2 years we've had a total of 14 starters out for the rest of the season by playoff time). There was a thread in the weight training section about time off- we give our guys off from now until June 1 (though we are still finishing up lifting this week)- by then they are getting kind of antsy to get back at it, which is how I want them. We don't want panic, but a little urgency is a good thing. I'm planning on giving a little more time off- maybe we will peak at the end of November rather than the end of October. I see alot of undercoaching fundamentals and over coaching schemes. I do the same thing in terms of looking at other things and drawing up different schemes but when August rolls around I am going to basically do what I always do with a new tweaks. Fundamentals are where it is at in the high school game.
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Post by carson101 on May 8, 2006 16:51:58 GMT -6
I believe in keeping it simple and effective, to much emphassis is put on every situation that can happen kids get lost and confused mistakes happen coaches get upset and the season goes down the toilet. Keepin it simple playing the keys and getting the job done seems to work for me having the game plan dialed in what do we want to accomplish and how we get it done will make for a better results. Over coaching I think creates burn out and loses kids sometimes coaches. On the other hand a good program that is balanced with weightroom, agility training and simple season planning leaves room for kids to have a life also, keeps them and the parents happy. I do require 100% particapation from all the kids when it time to work but I also want them playing the game because its fun too. Keepin it simple works for me. As far as camps go I am committed to 1 camp that offers all the fundementals, intensity,7-7,11-11,steady circuit training and consistancy, for a very modest cost the success it produces is amazing.
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Post by coachdawhip on May 8, 2006 18:55:03 GMT -6
I agree I think coaches under coach technique and over coach scheme
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zulu6
Sophomore Member
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Post by zulu6 on May 9, 2006 8:17:51 GMT -6
I agree I think coaches under coach technique and over coach scheme that's almost exclusively what the big boys do!
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Post by knighter on May 9, 2006 8:27:04 GMT -6
I believe one of the reasons the doublewing is so successful at the high school level is because with just a minimum of blocking schemes it allows us to spend more time on the techniques involved within the schemes and really concentrate on all the finest of details. This allows for my kids to be successful at running a core of base plays. We can run several different backfield sets, and if something changes it is always the backs, not the line. We have won quite a few games with average athletes who have been very proficient at executing the things we ask them to in the offensive line. We OVERCOACH technique, and do not worry about having some overly complex scheme. A play only fails if we fail to execute at each position, there are no bad plays, only bad execution. My kids believe in this 100%. In otherwords they drank the kool aid too!
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Post by blb on May 9, 2006 8:42:30 GMT -6
Kids don't get bored, coaches do. I think that leads to some over-coaching in terms of Xs and Os. We get carried away with the pencil and paper.
Also I think we try to be too smart. We go to a clinic and hear a pro or college guy with some "new" term for something we've been calling a "storm" or "weakside end" for years and we just wind up confusing a 16-year old who's got enough to remember where the 6-hole is and that he's on kickoff return, not kickoff coverage.
As far as overtraining, most of my kids are going to see me and hear my voice at least three days a week for a minimum of 60 minutes year-round except Christmas and Spring vacations. Our kids have a very good work ethic and most of them really like football. I worry about their enthusiasm and excitement draining toward the end of the playing season especially.
I also worry about long-term effects of lifting heavy weights in multijoint (Olympic or body-building-type exercises) over an extended period of time.
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Post by knighter on May 9, 2006 9:16:21 GMT -6
blb, you bring up several good points in that post.
who amongst us hasn't drawn up a new "foolproof play" or started calling a play we had run for years a "smash" combo etc.
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Post by phantom on May 9, 2006 9:30:28 GMT -6
I agree that "overthinking" is a better term than "overcoaching". I do see a lot of stuff like using their best back as "decoy" or driving the ball down a team's throat then coming out the next series throwing the ball out of spread. On the whole, though, I'd say that there are an awful lot of undercoached teams. Burnout? I still don't know how I'm supposed to recognize the symptoms.
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Post by jjkuenzel on May 9, 2006 15:18:44 GMT -6
I realize that we are mostly high school guys, but what about St. Johns University in MN? They coach virtually no technique at all and it is all schemes. 3 national championships and the all time winningest coach later they seem to be doing alright.
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Post by airman on May 9, 2006 17:42:07 GMT -6
I realize that we are mostly high school guys, but what about St. Johns University in MN? They coach virtually no technique at all and it is all schemes. 3 national championships and the all time winningest coach later they seem to be doing alright. they work on technique. they rep a lot of plays. however his situation is really unique. for exmaple, he does not have to deal with title 9 as his school is all male. he recruits as many plays as possible and let them weed themselves out. he carries around 160 players each year. compare that with the wisconsin systems next door who can only carry 100 players per team do to title 9. i think the devil is in the details at the high school leve. kids know very little about football. IMO, good technique will win most of the time. if you tell a kid to run a 15 back to 13 yd curl route, you better stand there and make sure they do it right. when done right it will be open, when done wrong, the db will have a chance to make a comeback play. i read where a team is supposed to cut practice by 30 to 40 mins after the halfway point in a season and at the threequarter mark, cut another 10 mins off practice.
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Post by coachjd on May 9, 2006 18:05:08 GMT -6
in fact the past few seasons st. john's has had over 200 kids on the roster. They coach technique and the kids better pay attention to details, because if they screw up they drop to the bottom of the depth chart and the coaches yell "next".
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