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Post by pnnsports on Nov 27, 2015 8:56:42 GMT -6
I am a panthers fan. But my real passion is clemson football. The college game is more innovative and fun compared to the nfl. The nfl is a cult of the same people, the same things, and conformity
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2015 14:26:33 GMT -6
I am a panthers fan. But my real passion is clemson football. The college game is more innovative and fun compared to the nfl. The nfl is a cult of the same people, the same things, and conformity Have you watched the game of football lately? Nothing is really all that new. Nothing you see is really "innovative". Just repackaged. Quarters tcu style is not new. 4 verticals Baylor style not new. It has been bad spread after bad spread week in and week out. At all levels. Yes you have those teams with athletes that make some look good. But even then, if you put on your coaching hat, and off with the what is popular to say hat, Its bad football up and down the food chain.
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Post by pnnsports on Nov 27, 2015 17:59:54 GMT -6
I am a panthers fan. But my real passion is clemson football. The college game is more innovative and fun compared to the nfl. The nfl is a cult of the same people, the same things, and conformity Have you watched the game of football lately? Nothing is really all that new. Nothing you see is really "innovative". Just repackaged. Quarters tcu style is not new. 4 verticals Baylor style not new. It has been bad spread after bad spread week in and week out. At all levels. Yes you have those teams with athletes that make some look good. But even then, if you put on your coaching hat, and off with the what is popular to say hat, Its bad football up and down the food chain.
Kind of true? Admittedly i do not know as much as the people on here. However where in the nfl will you see the offenses of PJ and Leach? And probably other defenses also. Now the repackaged thing is true, but what in the NFL has variety compared to college? Personally, I dont see it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2015 18:20:37 GMT -6
Have you watched the game of football lately? Nothing is really all that new. Nothing you see is really "innovative". Just repackaged. Quarters tcu style is not new. 4 verticals Baylor style not new. It has been bad spread after bad spread week in and week out. At all levels. Yes you have those teams with athletes that make some look good. But even then, if you put on your coaching hat, and off with the what is popular to say hat, Its bad football up and down the food chain.
Kind of true? Admittedly i do not know as much as the people on here. However where in the nfl will you see the offenses of PJ and Leach? And probably other defenses also. Now the repackaged thing is true, but what in the NFL has variety compared to college? Personally, I dont see it. is the mesh that wsu runs not run in the nfl? is zone read a no go in the nfl? concepts are not the problem in the nfl. you cant find a team who is not based out of the gun anywhere in D1 or the nfl. the shotgun is 95 pct of all of d1 and nfl football. Pj is a rarity, as is navy. There isn't the diversity you think in college or between college and the nfl. doesn't exist. The good teams at both levels are well coached, run a small number of concepts and really good at a handful of those concepts.
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Post by philosopher0 on Nov 28, 2015 23:57:53 GMT -6
Its not about concepts used as much as philosophy and scheme. There is no air raid or flex bone NFL teams. NFL teams are a homogenized mess of West Coast, Air Coryell, and Erhardt Perkins. Eagles are lone exception but even then... its watered down chip Kelly floundering as gm.
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Post by 33coach on Nov 29, 2015 9:54:05 GMT -6
Kind of true? Admittedly i do not know as much as the people on here. However where in the nfl will you see the offenses of PJ and Leach? And probably other defenses also. Now the repackaged thing is true, but what in the NFL has variety compared to college? Personally, I dont see it. is the mesh that wsu runs not run in the nfl? is zone read a no go in the nfl? concepts are not the problem in the nfl. you cant find a team who is not based out of the gun anywhere in D1 or the nfl. the shotgun is 95 pct of all of d1 and nfl football. Pj is a rarity, as is navy. There isn't the diversity you think in college or between college and the nfl. doesn't exist. The good teams at both levels are well coached, run a small number of concepts and really good at a handful of those concepts. One D1 team I always like watching is San Diego State. They still base out of 21 personnel under center!
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Post by coachdubyah on Nov 29, 2015 13:24:03 GMT -6
The Colts. Only because I've seen them consistently run Influence Trap on more than one occasion. I teared up a little.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 29, 2015 16:04:06 GMT -6
At the risk of codifying into absolutes, I find the NFL is so hard-wired to situational football. Offenses don't operate as a base and variations, but 1st down plays, 3rd and long plays, and short-yardage plays. IMO, THAT'S why the NFL seems boring. Consequently, that's how defenses are built in the NFL. You're either in 21 or sub personnel and coverages are played off of splits based on D&D and field position. None of this stuff is (usually) congruent with what they do on any other down. Most NFL offenses are geared at just the individual matchups and not the working concepts/series that it would be difficult to glean much out of it for HS. I think brophy does a good job here demonstrating how the NFL might be considered a bit different than HS or even NCAA ball. For those who are saying watching the NFL isn't very useful, might I suggest that instead of watching for 11 man schemes, you look instead at ways they utilize individual talent. That might benefit your program somehow. Also, (regarding the QB position particularly) I think you can benefit from watching how the NFL seemingly tries to put square pegs in round holes on a routine basis with less than stellar results. Avoiding this practice might help your program as well.
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Post by mdunham on Nov 29, 2015 19:27:50 GMT -6
I'm from right outside Boston so naturally I watch the Pats. They seem to run the most diverse stuff, execute at the highest levels, get more guys to play above their perceived abilities than any other team. Example: just this year alone I've seen them run re end around, fake end around play action, and fake end around screen. All that being said, on the whole I don't watch much NFL anymore (and I'm a 20 something!). Because most of the other teams it's just painful to watch. It's cool to see the occasional big play and some in game match ups. Mid major/low level FBS/FCS is cool to watch since they're a bit more diverse. And even though Boston College is down this year, I've enjoyed watching them in the past under Addazio because they've done a ton of power running out of gun and pistol with 1/2 TEs, incorporating read option concepts. It's a shame their offense has been so bad with their injuries this year because their defense has been nothing short of stellar.
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Post by rosey65 on Dec 2, 2015 8:33:07 GMT -6
So I've officially renounced myself as a Niner fan, but that's another story. I'm curious what NFL teams are worth watching or are doing something novel/interesting/unique? Who would I enjoy intellectually? First of all, drinking heavily until Jed is gone, combined with moving to an area that doesnt air non-prime-time 49er games, will greatly improve your view of the glorious franchise. Secondly, I cant help but love watching the Patriots. No because of the play calling, hoodie, or flawless helmet hair of Brady. I am impressed week in and week out by 2 things, and they are closely related...(1)the preparation of Brady, demonstrated by his awareness of all other 21 players on the field at all times. There's rarely hesitation, or fluster, or having to make a play. He dictates the game like he's playing Madden. And (2) is the communication within the offense itself. The way play calls, adjustments, checks and reads are made is astounding. Again, these are subtle things i try and notice as the game goes on and are often broken down by the Networks the next day. Things like, Gronk pass setting, releasing when his LB blitzes, Brady dumping off essentially a no-look pass for 6. The personnel adjustments, having extra skill players and fewer OL in, changing who is on the line and who isnt (last season) all within a matter of seconds. THAT's what I like... On a similar note, Oregon last season with Mariotta impressed me the same way. Not the play calls themselves, but the speed and manner in which the entire offense was able to stay on the same page. The personnel, formation, motion and play, all set within a matter of seconds.
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Post by blb on Dec 2, 2015 8:51:08 GMT -6
One reason NFL teams look so homogeneous is because of Free Agency.
Players change teams so often it is hard to operate a unique system and plug in new acquisitions. Especially true of OL which as we all know requires a great deal of cohesion and experience playing together to be efficient.
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Post by jgordon1 on Dec 2, 2015 9:10:21 GMT -6
Kind of alluding to Brophy I find NFL boring to watch...But, and you might think I am crazy, I like to watch the pre-game shows..yea the rhetoric can get over the top , but if you listen to someone like Gruden or Howie Long guys w/ tons of experience they say some pretty cool things. I haven't watched in a while but does Jaws still do his thing..I always used to like him the best... I also like the highlights because there really are some incredible plays..I just don't like waiting to see them
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Post by brophy on Dec 2, 2015 9:34:27 GMT -6
...(1)the preparation of Brady, demonstrated by his awareness of all other 21 players on the field at all times. There's rarely hesitation, or fluster, or having to make a play. He dictates the game like he's playing Madden. And (2) is the communication within the offense itself. got to agree with this. Win or lose, those teams don't generally quit. Brady is a guy you want to hate because he doesn't do anything wrong / is Mr. Perfect. He's a multiple league MVP, Super Bowl MVP, has gotten paid 2 times over, has a super model wife that makes more than him and he's still out there not just trying to be a legendary quarterback (Manning, who I've never liked) but is actively trying to be flawless to whip the other teams ass. It is refreshing to see someone play at that level who is still giving effort. When you watch an NFL game, you can tell who is making $500k and who is on their first or second FA contract ($$ 7 figures) by the amount of IDGAF they play with
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Post by 33coach on Dec 2, 2015 10:08:28 GMT -6
One reason NFL teams look so homogeneous is because of Free Agency. Players change teams so often it is hard to operate a unique system and plug in new acquisitions. Especially true of OL which as we all know requires a great deal of cohesion and experience playing together to be efficient. what is interesting about that though, is that these guys are students of the game. id be shocked if there was an OL in the NFL who couldnt execute any block you ask; gap or zone. so i cant see why with the hours and hours and hours of practice, film, meetings they are able to have...you couldnt do something like install the Delaware Wing T (with the OL at least...backfield...its going to take longer). all those guys have down blocked, have reach blocked, have escaped/veered, have trapped, have kicked out, have wrapped. and if they havnt...should they be an NFL linemen?
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Post by coachphillip on Dec 2, 2015 10:11:12 GMT -6
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Post by coachphillip on Dec 2, 2015 10:12:13 GMT -6
Did somebody say "Mr. Perfect"?
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Post by brophy on Dec 2, 2015 10:18:34 GMT -6
with the NFL, it appears they completely blow off preseason, then break the 16-game season into quarters (then further based on division rivals). Its almost like the thinking of many teams is just survive the first half of the season because .500 can get you a wildcard spot and, hey, winning the division is tough, so let's not try hard and blow off the first quarter of the season. Many of those veterans appear to have the mentality that they have to not risk their net worth by getting injured (the Franco Harris bug) and make business decisions to preserve their careers early in the season....then by mid-season, is there anything left fighting for (realistic playoff spot?) and if not, they just tank it because there is always next year. May as well collect that game check and avoid IR reduction
At least with the college, teams have to figure things out in those first 3 games to be ready for their conference opponents or risk falling out of relevancy (top 25 rankings).
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Post by blb on Dec 2, 2015 10:19:17 GMT -6
One reason NFL teams look so homogeneous is because of Free Agency. Players change teams so often it is hard to operate a unique system and plug in new acquisitions. Especially true of OL which as we all know requires a great deal of cohesion and experience playing together to be efficient. what is interesting about that though, is that these guys are students of the game. id be shocked if there was an OL in the NFL who couldnt execute any block you ask; gap or zone. so i cant see why with the hours and hours and hours of practice, film, meetings they are able to have...you couldnt do something like install the Delaware Wing T (with the OL at least...backfield...its going to take longer). all those guys have down blocked, have reach blocked, have escaped/veered, have trapped, have kicked out, have wrapped. and if they havnt...should they be an NFL linemen?
Very few OL getting drafted who did those things in college, not many Wing-T teams in CFB anymore.
Nor would top recruits go to those colleges if they thought they had a shot at The League. Just like QBs-WRs they want to go where they'll be working on pass pro.
That style of Offense left NFL when Chuck Noll retired.
Marv Levy tried to run Wing-T with Chiefs in late '70s, was fired after two years.
Listen to Mark "Stink" Schlereth (ESPN) bemoan the quality of OL coming into NFL now because so many have never been in a three-point stance and had to Drive block.
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Post by 33coach on Dec 2, 2015 10:22:29 GMT -6
what is interesting about that though, is that these guys are students of the game. id be shocked if there was an OL in the NFL who couldnt execute any block you ask; gap or zone. so i cant see why with the hours and hours and hours of practice, film, meetings they are able to have...you couldnt do something like install the Delaware Wing T (with the OL at least...backfield...its going to take longer). all those guys have down blocked, have reach blocked, have escaped/veered, have trapped, have kicked out, have wrapped. and if they havnt...should they be an NFL linemen?
Very few OL getting drafted who did those things in college, not many Wing-T teams in CFB anymore.
Nor would top recruits they go to those colleges if they thought they had a shot at The League. Just like QBs-WRs they want to go where they'll be working on pass pro.
That style of Offense left NFL when Chuck Noll retired.
Marv Levy tried to run Wing-T with Chiefs in late '70s, was fired after two years.
Listen to Mark "Stink" Schlereth (ESPN) bemoan the quality of OL coming into NFL now because so many have never been in a three-point stance and had to Drive block.
i knew all this spread stuff was going to hurt the game as a whole... (let the flame war begin)
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Post by blb on Dec 2, 2015 10:22:34 GMT -6
with the NFL, it appears they completely blow off preseason, then break the 16-game season into quarters (then further based on division rivals). Its almost like they thinking of many teams is just survive the first half of the season because .500 can get you a wildcard spot and, hey, winning the division is tough, so let's not try hard and blow off the first quarter of the season. At least with the college, teams have to figure things out in those first 3 games to be ready for their conference opponents or risk falling out of relevancy (top 25 rankings).
Agree, it's like September or first four games is Pre-Season where they are easing into playing shape, figuring out who can play and what team can do.
Goal is to be healthy and in position to make playoff run in November.
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Post by brophy on Dec 2, 2015 10:28:22 GMT -6
Listen to Mark "Stink" Schlereth (ESPN) bemoan the quality of OL coming into NFL now because so many have never been in a three-point stance and had to Drive block.
oh well, if you got paid six figures to teach football, you think you might be able to instruct a world-class athlete in a skill set? A good example is Jared Goff this year. Tall bodied QB who has good instincts and can win, but is severly oversold as the next golden arm and is efficient in Franklin's system. He has the physical traits the NFL covets and the pedigree a franchise can sell as their spokesperson. However, he'll likely go to an offensive system (ala old school WCO Gruden crap) where it will be unnecessarily verbose which isn't anything like he's dealing with now. So there will be such a learning curve that if the old dogs in the NFL don't adapt and streamline their crap, they won't be able to take advantage of the talent they acquire.
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Post by 33coach on Dec 2, 2015 10:30:27 GMT -6
with the NFL, it appears they completely blow off preseason, then break the 16-game season into quarters (then further based on division rivals). Its almost like they thinking of many teams is just survive the first half of the season because .500 can get you a wildcard spot and, hey, winning the division is tough, so let's not try hard and blow off the first quarter of the season. At least with the college, teams have to figure things out in those first 3 games to be ready for their conference opponents or risk falling out of relevancy (top 25 rankings).
Agree, it's like September or first four games is Pre-Season where they are easing into playing shape, figuring out who can play and what team can do.
Goal is to be healthy and in position to make playoff run in November.
when you have 16 games. you have to pace yourself. i think they should drop a few games and go to a 14/12 game schedule - although, the NFL money machine would never allow it. you would see the competition in the first games go up - and injuries go down (theory), but they would lose ticket sales....
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Post by brophy on Dec 2, 2015 10:32:56 GMT -6
I liked how Philly was screaming through the season when they had Foles running tempo on a regular. I think it really stressed the depth of opponent's 53 man roster to stay healthy, so by week 10 you may not be 6 or 7-deep with quality DBs that are healthy to substitute in and out to play those guys in a long drive
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2015 11:00:52 GMT -6
.they don't get the reps needed to be good at anything. And those reps go to 18 different runs, 25 different pass concepts. You see this on every level. They never get good at anything. And now you understand small fraction are always winning, most are just recycled crap!
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Post by 33coach on Dec 2, 2015 11:58:14 GMT -6
.they don't get the reps needed to be good at anything. And those reps go to 18 different runs, 25 different pass concepts. You see this on every level. They never get good at anything. And now you understand small fraction are always winning, most are just recycled crap! from the NFL guys ive talked to, the biggest difference between the NFL (and to an extent big CFB) and the rest of us is that: in HS, you have a system that is built to take advantage of the defense. in Pro ball, you have plays that take advantage of specific defenders. so you do need a ton of different concepts that change week to week because defenders change week to week.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2015 14:25:21 GMT -6
.they don't get the reps needed to be good at anything. And those reps go to 18 different runs, 25 different pass concepts. You see this on every level. They never get good at anything. And now you understand small fraction are always winning, most are just recycled crap! from the NFL guys ive talked to, the biggest difference between the NFL (and to an extent big CFB) and the rest of us is that: in HS, you have a system that is built to take advantage of the defense. in Pro ball, you have plays that take advantage of specific defenders. so you do need a ton of different concepts that change week to week because defenders change week to week. watch the pats. They are not 25 different concepts. Not even close.
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Post by mariner42 on Dec 2, 2015 14:55:55 GMT -6
Just want to say that I think this is one of the more insightful posts we've had that dissects the NFL game. It's been pretty interesting to read.
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Post by jrk5150 on Dec 2, 2015 15:31:16 GMT -6
watch the pats. They are not 25 different concepts. Not even close. In a sense maybe they are. They probably have the most flexible offense in the NFL - part of the difficulty in playing them is that they morph what they do every week based on the team they're playing. They are the ultimate take what they are given team. That said - perhaps different "concepts" isn't the right way to put it. Most of their passing routes are option routes, so both Brady and the receiver have to make the same read, sometimes multiple reads, on the play. That doesn't change game to game, but what the receiver and Brady are looking for does. Very complicated to run, and a big reason they tend to have trouble finding receivers who fit their system.
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Post by mdunham on Dec 2, 2015 16:43:53 GMT -6
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Post by coachklee on Dec 2, 2015 17:46:38 GMT -6
Detroit this year if you want to see what not to do. Although they are on a bit of a winning streak right now! If the Lions knock off Green Bay, they might find a way to win out. Really the Lions are an example of how to not run an NFL franchise in terms of management & choices in personnel...especially shows how disastrous bad drafts by a guy named Millen can lead to one of the worst decades in NFL history from 2000-2010.
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