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Post by 33coach on Sept 28, 2015 11:52:34 GMT -6
jrk5150 I think the point here is the HOW. "How" does a team go about winning. Do they do so by playing the best 11? In a youth game with 8 min quarters, it is easily conceivable to play the same 11 kids on O/D/K and not have any negative effects due to fatigue. That is the underlying issue when coaches talk about "playing to win" at the youth level. The HOW. That various across the country because youth league set ups vary across the country. we play with 10 minute quarters - and ill tell you its damn near impossible to have more then 1 or 2 two-way starters without seeing some fatigue effects. in my situation, a team of 18 with typically 17 dressed..its even more drastic because there is no one to replace anyone.
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Post by coachjtm on Sept 28, 2015 12:48:16 GMT -6
coachd5085 I disagree completely. I have 28 kids on my 8U team. I have 8 two-way starters. That means I have 14 kids who start and another 2-3 that rotate in regularly. That means I have at most 17 kids who will play significant minutes in an average game, which by the way are full NCAA rules with adjusted extra points. Our program is in the playoffs every year, winning championships. Our guys are at Glazier clinics and we are going to a vertical integration with our MS & HS teams by choice.
We play to win. We have to. Half my kids don't have a dad in the house. About the same percentage are on some kind of assistance. Guess what? They're not learning what they need to if they're just handed playing time. They're not unique special snow flakes that need to be coddled. They have to learn that they may sit on Saturday but get better during the week. That the guys ahead of them earned something by working for it. Many don't get that lesson at home. They (#*& well won't get it from their public school. So who teaches them that they will have to, need to work for what they get? We (&@# well do and we push our kids to be the best. Our retention is over 85%. Of the kids that enter our program from age 3 where they only practice to 11, 85% of those kids will be back and of those kids over 60% end up on a middle school team.
We've had 3 NFL level players and I currently have a senior 4 year starter in the SEC and another kid committed to a Big 12 school. They didn't get there by accident and it didn't start in high school. They weren't handed anything and when you coddle some of these kids they learn the wrong lessons. Throwing a kid who isn't ready into a competitive situation can just as easily lead to that kid getting hurt and he generally won't learn a damn thing. I'll send my kids who don't see the field to a half dozen scrimmages a year where they learn what they would in a game while still learning the life lessons about earning time and working hard.
At the end of the day we will always "Play to Win." Telling kids to do anything else is counter productive and leads to getting less than optimal results from them, from you and from everyone around them.
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Post by mahonz on Sept 28, 2015 13:33:12 GMT -6
My Youth FB Coach has a Park named after him. My HS FB Coach does not.
My Youth FB Coach had no impact on me that I can remember....my HS FB Coach certainly did.
One thing is for sure....without one....I'd have never met the other.
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Post by jrk5150 on Sept 28, 2015 18:41:47 GMT -6
Bad coaching is bad coaching. And I agree is that it IS all about the "how". At EVERY level.
And while, again, I think it's more prevalent in youth, it's not exclusive to youth. I can point you to HS's that don't go very deep into their roster (to their detriment), and who play a version of if not actual Daddy ball.
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Post by mahonz on Sept 28, 2015 20:48:53 GMT -6
Dan Hawkins lost his job at the University of Colorado for playing Daddy Ball.
His son wasn't a bad QB...but it certainly kept better ones from signing up.
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Post by davecisar on Sept 30, 2015 12:44:55 GMT -6
jrk5150 I think the point here is the HOW. "How" does a team go about winning. Do they do so by playing the best 11? In a youth game with 8 min quarters, it is easily conceivable to play the same 11 kids on O/D/K and not have any negative effects due to fatigue. That is the underlying issue when coaches talk about "playing to win" at the youth level. The HOW. That various across the country because youth league set ups vary across the country. Interesting thread, it seems like some people may be suffering from a very small sample size and are attributing that to the entire nation. Ive done over 200 youth coaching clinics in 30+ states. Youth football varies from place to place. First of all MOST play 10 minute quarters, not 8 - less than 10% play 8 minute. Another 5 % play 12 minute quarters. I get to see a lot of great guys coaching for the right reasons, to teach safe, fundamentally sound football while trying to develop a love of the game in their kids. The fact is- if you teach GREAT fundamentals, your teams are going to consistently win games. If you combine that with the right practice priorities and can bring teams together- you will consistently win championhips. In todays video game reset environment where kids have MULTITUDES of options- they better see some team and individual success. That means if they dont do that and they dont feel like they are part of the team or contributing, they will often times move on to something that does fill that need. The teams with the highest drop rates: losing teams. WINNING, teaching great fundamentals, playing and retaining kids ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. My teams consistently win championships- 20+ years worth and I rarely lose a player. In last 6 years maybe 4-5 total who started the season- ended the season and signed up to play again the following year. Very doable, 100% retention is always the goal. Winning is a habit. To think that a kid doesnt care about or teams shouldnt care about winning until the kid is a Jr in HS- and suddenly he magically turns on the juice is ludicrous IMO. Do I see some knuckehead youth coaches who do what the OP talks about? Sure but they rarely are the consistent winners- they eventually are exposed and better coaches/programs gobble up those kids. BTW over 75% of youth football leagues nationwide have minimum play rules- so the OPs point doesnt really hold water. Of the 24 clinics I did last year, all of the leagues but 1 had a minimum play rule.
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Post by davecisar on Sept 30, 2015 13:02:17 GMT -6
True--this thread has veered from the OPs original question, but I really think it shows just how big the divide can be between youth and Varsity coaches..even really good ones like 19delta and coachcb who both (even if they are crappy coaches) frequently make insightful and intelligent posts on this board. Agreed. That divide is surprising too me. Mike
You don't get out much
I see it everywhere I go- very common problem
Most of the consistently successful HS coaches "get it"
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Post by mahonz on Sept 30, 2015 13:18:29 GMT -6
Agreed. That divide is surprising too me. Mike
You don't get out much
I see it everywhere I go- very common problem
Most of the consistently successful HS coaches "get it"
Dave You are probably right.
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Post by davecisar on Sept 30, 2015 14:04:08 GMT -6
When I first started doing coaching clinics- I was taken aback by the negative attitude some of the HS coaches had towards youth ball. A love/hate relationships in some places.
Part of it is earned, part of it isn't and part is laying the blame for some of their own lack of wins on someone other than themselves. It happens just like it does in youth ball- youth football coaches are some of the biggest excuse makers known to man.
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Post by coachjtm on Oct 1, 2015 8:28:43 GMT -6
When I first started doing coaching clinics- I was taken aback by the negative attitude some of the HS coaches had towards youth ball. A love/hate relationships in some places. Part of it is earned, part of it isn't and part is laying the blame for some of their own lack of wins on someone other than themselves. It happens just like it does in youth ball- youth football coaches are some of the biggest excuse makers known to man. This is incredibly true. Last year we couldn't get the middle school staff on the phone. New staff this year and they're doing a 2 day clinic for our whole program (4 staffs).
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Post by coachrobpsl on Oct 3, 2015 10:21:46 GMT -6
Coaching to win, coaching to develop kids, and coaching to ensure that kids keep a love for the game do not need to be mutually exclusive. I have been lucky enough to be on some extremely successful youth coaching staffs and I firmly believe we were able to accomplish all three of those goals. The reality is that at every level, to include the NFL, winning is not important because it is truly just a game and a form of entertainment. The NFL has a bit of an argument against this because those players get paid to perform. But again, they are getting paid to play a GAME. It is just a game and in no way is it actually important. Not when compared to things that really matter.
My best friend is a very successful hs coach who played D1 ball, won a state title in hs as a player and a coach, has a NC ring from college as a player and a GA coach and has coached some college ball. He also played pro baseball for a short time. You know what he wants us youth coaches to do? Teach the kids to block and tackle and install an attitude that hard work will take you places and the awareness that without hard work you will never succeed. That's it. He has no problem with youth coaches wanting to win. Losing is not fun. Winning is addictive and takes hard work. He laughs when people make absurd statements like it is a youth coaches job to get them ready for hs ball. He says a youth coaches job is to coach youth football. Make them love the game at the level they play or they will not continue to play as they get older. My thought is if they don't play as they get older it is not necessarily the youth coaches fault. It probably has little to do with the kids youth coach. Kids have many more choices in how they spend their time. What is important to us might no be important to them. That's ok believe it or not. Their interest may be much more noble or meaningful than this silly game we all love and obsess over. I love football, take it extremely seriously but it is just a silly game. No matter how much work we put into it, time and money we invest, football remains a game. Some people need to get over their over inflated view of how important they are and climb down of their enormous pedestals. You look quite comical up their preaching and dictating.
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