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Post by 33coach on Sept 25, 2015 9:33:49 GMT -6
I agree---however, I do remember when a thread a few years ago and it seemed the majority of responses here basically read "If it wasn't important, they wouldn't keep the score!!!"
I do know that it is somewhat of a double standard though...HS coaches often saying "youth job is to develop kids" (read: get them ready for ME) and they view HS as "whats important"
lol aint that the truth....
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Post by 19delta on Sept 25, 2015 11:19:08 GMT -6
I'm rolling my eyes because I am tired of hearing youth and middle school coaches treating 4th-8th grade football like it's life-or-death or a professional sport. It is an epidemic in this country in all youth sports. You know as well as I do that the vast majority of youth/middle school coaches that talk about being "competitive" emphasize winning over playing time/developing the players. Citation needed. What is your evidence for this? Don't make the mistake of extrapolating your experiences in crappy programs to everyone else here. You know what I am tired of? Arrogant middle and high school coaches who think they know everything about football because they have a school-issued polo shirt and a stipend.
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Post by 19delta on Sept 25, 2015 11:28:11 GMT -6
I will take my kid's coaches over most of the youth coaches I have been around because of the simple fact that they see the bigger picture; they're playing all of the kids and stressing that the game is fun. Yes, they run terrible practices and are lacking as coaches but they're trying and they treat my kid right. Yup, they're losing games but those kids are out there, playing hard, working as a team and ENJOYING THE GAME. I will take that over the weekend warrior who keeps "stats" on his 5th grade football team any day. And, don't assume that I haven't coached at the youth level; I have. In seventeen seasons, I have coached three youth teams. Every kid played equally and we lost a grand total of two games. We never used the word "competitive" once; we never even talked about winning or losing. We stressed the PROCESS: dial in at practice, get better, work/play hard and have fun. Are you saying that coaches like me don't see the bigger picture? Are you really making the argument that a couple of slapdicks who are unorganized clusters are actually doing a better job coaching the game then coaches who are knowledgeable and organized? Again...why so black and white? Why can't football it be both fun and competitive?
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Post by 19delta on Sept 25, 2015 11:33:54 GMT -6
Right now, I'm coaching an 8th grade team and we're having a great season, ON PAPER. Outside of the Ws and Ls, the kids are miserable because the guys I am coaching with play too much Madden and spend too many Mondays nursing their hang-overs and whining about their fantasy teams. The game is not fun for these kids, even though we haven't lost a game. We just happen to be very athletic and have a light schedule. Practices are frustrating and depressing because these other a$$holes are putting the kids through the grinder, only playing half of the them and then treating them like crap. We started out with 31 kids; we're down to 21. Thankfully, the administration sees what I am seeing and is addressing it. He isn't calling the season a success and neither am I. But, I am done. The youth sport culture in this country is a detriment to athletics and it's getting worse. Cool story, bro. So every youth program that wins a lot of games is coached by Madden-playing, Sunday-night-drinking, fantasy-football-loving douchebags? Your little anecdote has absolutely NOTHING to do with youth football. There are PLENTY of high school teams that simply roll the ball out there because they have great athletes who perform well in spite of bad coaching.
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Post by 33coach on Sept 25, 2015 11:35:19 GMT -6
im working with 13-14 year olds, have been for 5 seasons (3 seasons before that i was at the HS level). and the one thing i have found is that kids NEED competition, internally and externally.
in practice, we compete in games, we compete
why is there such a negative connotation around "compete" in this thread?
i run a team more like what we did when i was wrestling - each kid is classified - Line, Ends, Back, offense and Defense, and you can challenge for any position in your class on Wednesday. if you do better then the guy you challenge. you get it. - so if you are a backup left guard, but want to challenge for starting center...go for it. some weeks everyone wants to challenge for a spot, and some weeks no one wants to.
kids need to compete, they need to earn, they need to know what its like to work for something - at every level.
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Post by coachcb on Sept 25, 2015 11:38:57 GMT -6
I agree---however, I do remember when a thread a few years ago and it seemed the majority of responses here basically read "If it wasn't important, they wouldn't keep the score!!!"
I do know that it is somewhat of a double standard though...HS coaches often saying "youth job is to develop kids" (read: get them ready for ME) and they view HS as "whats important"
As far as I'm concerned, Friday night ball is where the Ws and Ls count. Everything beneath it needs to be developmental with a strong focus on getting the kids playing time so that they can continue to grow and build skills. I have coached under three HS HCs who have multiple state titles under their belts and their edict from JV down to the youth level was simple; every kid that shows up to practice and works gets playing time. Yeah, you might not have an undefeated JV season because you're plugging those lower level skill players in there but you're doing two things that are far more important. Firstly, you're teaching ALL of the kids that their hard work means something; not just your best 15. It's pretty hard to stay motivated to play ball when you're busting hump every day and getting better but you ride the bench. Secondly; you're giving that kid more turns at the skills he needs to be successful. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a coach say "He won't see a down on Friday nights, I don't know why we're playing him". Well,you don't know where that kid will be two months from now physically, much less a whole year. He might not be starting for you but I'll give up wins at the lower levels to try to ensure that the depth is ready to go. NOW, if these HOF coaches subscribe to this philosophy at their phuckin' JV level, then you'd better bet that youth coaches better subscribe to it too. My least favorite year coaching was with a youth team that went undefeated and won the city title because those kids had bought into the 'competitive" mentality so much that they didn't care if they played like chit and won. Practices were a PITA because no one (parents and staff included) felt like those kids had to listen and learn, simply because we were winning. I will never forget the game where we were winning 21-0 and the FB walked into the end zone after breaking off a big run. Literally walked. I benched him for the rest of the game and got nothing but flak. WHY? Because we were winning games.
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Post by 19delta on Sept 25, 2015 11:42:46 GMT -6
I agree---however, I do remember when a thread a few years ago and it seemed the majority of responses here basically read "If it wasn't important, they wouldn't keep the score!!!"
I do know that it is somewhat of a double standard though...HS coaches often saying "youth job is to develop kids" (read: get them ready for ME) and they view HS as "whats important"
Which, of course, is ridiculous. Most kids who play youth ball don't even play high school ball. My job isn't to be a farm team for the high school program. I'm going to coach the kids up, treat them fairly, and give them the opportunity to have fun and contribute in a meaningful and competitive way. We expect players to give us their best efforts. It follows that we, as coaches, owe those kids the same thing in return.
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Post by coachjtm on Sept 25, 2015 13:47:36 GMT -6
I agree---however, I do remember when a thread a few years ago and it seemed the majority of responses here basically read "If it wasn't important, they wouldn't keep the score!!!"
I do know that it is somewhat of a double standard though...HS coaches often saying "youth job is to develop kids" (read: get them ready for ME) and they view HS as "whats important"
I dislike the one size fits all approach here. There is no reason that there can't be some leagues/divisions that are more athletic and "competitive" than others. If you want your child to play as much as any other then talk to the coaches and parents, find out more about the league etc. If it's about developing kids, that's done at practice, in the off season and at home as much as in a game. Emphasize that. Teaching kids that everyone is entitled to play the same or similar amounts because of the simple fact that they might be able to fog a mirror produces terrible results and entitled players who are only going to be hit by reality sooner or later. It's great that being opposed to daddy ball is something we all agree with. Equal playing time is not something that's productive to a lot of kids. That's even more true when you coach kids that are in one parent households or may be underprivileged. A blanket solution on playing time sometimes produces unintended negative consequences as much as it helps some other issue.
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Post by coachdoug on Sept 25, 2015 14:40:29 GMT -6
As far as I'm concerned, Friday night ball is where the Ws and Ls count. Everything beneath it needs to be developmental with a strong focus on getting the kids playing time so that they can continue to grow and build skills. ... NOW, if these HOF coaches subscribe to this philosophy at their phuckin' JV level, then you'd better bet that youth coaches better subscribe to it too. First of all, why do Ws and Ls count at the varsity level? Seriously, most of the kids are still minors - shouldn't it still be about fun, learning life lessons, growing and developing skills they can carry with them for the rest of their lives? Saying that's important for a 17 year old, but not for 15 year old, or a 13 year old or whatever is pretty arbitrary. For the most part, people's livelihood isn't affected by the performance of their athletes (yes, I know HS coaches can and do get fired, but a tiny percentage of them rely on their coaching income as their primary source of income), so why should winning matter at all below the college level? Seriously, this approach makes a lot more sense than saying that winning arbitrarily starts being meaningful in the middle of high school, but is completely irrelevant prior to that. I think I see what's happened here - you're operating under the assumption that the youth program is a part of the high school program (either through the school system or the high school runs and sponsors the youth program). If that's the case where you are, then your attitude makes a lot more sense. However, that is not the case for the vast majority of us. I send kids to multiple high schools every year (over 20 different high schools in the past 4 years alone). No high school does much of anything to help and support us (other than the school where we practice and play, and for which we pay a small fortune - over $15K this year - for that privilege). If some local HOF coach (and yes, we have several of them around here as well) wants me to get on board with his philosophy, then he better pony up some support for our program - anything short of that is the height of arrogance. That's a bit TIC - I have excellent relationships with most of the HS staffs in my area and they love getting our players because they have been taught proper fundamentals and have learned a love for the game, and generally do very, very well at the HS level (and in some cases beyond). Honestly, I don't know why you're being so combative - other than acting like "competition" is a dirty word, and the insinuation that youth programs have an obligation to serve their local high schools, I think you're saying the same things that most of us here say all the time. You're just doing it with an attitude that you have it all figured out and everyone else here is a complete moron. Anyway, good luck with the rest of your season.
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Post by mahonz on Sept 25, 2015 15:37:57 GMT -6
Heck...most of our drills are a competition with a winner and a loser.
I don't fault Coachcb for taking this stance. He had a poor experience coaching youth ball.
Although one thing is true....you reap what you sow...and that is always the coaches fault.
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 26, 2015 16:09:02 GMT -6
As far as I'm concerned, Friday night ball is where the Ws and Ls count. Everything beneath it needs to be developmental with a strong focus on getting the kids playing time so that they can continue to grow and build skills. I understand what you mean, but I have to ask...why is this just "so". I am not suggesting that youth teams should operate by focusing on a few kids to win rather than all to have a good experience. Rather, I wonder the opposite. I am just curious why it is the accepted practice to do that arbitrarily at the Varsity level. Why is it ok to then tell that 5'6 135lb kid who runs a 5.7 40 but has never missed a practice, never missed a workout session, did everything you ask through all stages of the program "well kid, you don't get to play anymore. Wins are important now!" I do think it is important to realize that this thread is touching on multiple very loosely related topics: "Daddy Ball" --where the coaches primary objective is to highlight their kid, whether they do it intentionally or unintentionally. "Overzealous Coaches" --where the coaches don't really see the experience of all the kids as their primary objective, but rather are looking to display their coaching prowess with a stellar W/L record at the potential expense of the majority of kids having a good football experience. "Feeder Programs"-- situations where the football teams of the 10-14 year olds as well as Frosh and JV teams are directly tied to a High School Varsity program. There are various degrees of connection. Some might be organizational (K-12 school) Some might be community based. "Non-Feeder Programs" Situations where the football teams of the 10-14 year olds aren't tied to any particular High School Varsity Program. Perspective has a lot to do with opinions when we talk about these types of subjects. I have coached or am familiar with all of these, but I think some of the responses here come from those who might not be.
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Post by 19delta on Sept 26, 2015 21:03:06 GMT -6
I agree---however, I do remember when a thread a few years ago and it seemed the majority of responses here basically read "If it wasn't important, they wouldn't keep the score!!!"
I do know that it is somewhat of a double standard though...HS coaches often saying "youth job is to develop kids" (read: get them ready for ME) and they view HS as "whats important"
As far as I'm concerned, Friday night ball is where the Ws and Ls count. Everything beneath it needs to be developmental with a strong focus on getting the kids playing time so that they can continue to grow and build skills. I have coached under three HS HCs who have multiple state titles under their belts and their edict from JV down to the youth level was simple; every kid that shows up to practice and works gets playing time. Yeah, you might not have an undefeated JV season because you're plugging those lower level skill players in there but you're doing two things that are far more important. Firstly, you're teaching ALL of the kids that their hard work means something; not just your best 15. It's pretty hard to stay motivated to play ball when you're busting hump every day and getting better but you ride the bench. Secondly; you're giving that kid more turns at the skills he needs to be successful. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a coach say "He won't see a down on Friday nights, I don't know why we're playing him". Well,you don't know where that kid will be two months from now physically, much less a whole year. He might not be starting for you but I'll give up wins at the lower levels to try to ensure that the depth is ready to go. NOW, if these HOF coaches subscribe to this philosophy at their phuckin' JV level, then you'd better bet that youth coaches better subscribe to it too. My least favorite year coaching was with a youth team that went undefeated and won the city title because those kids had bought into the 'competitive" mentality so much that they didn't care if they played like chit and won. Practices were a PITA because no one (parents and staff included) felt like those kids had to listen and learn, simply because we were winning. I will never forget the game where we were winning 21-0 and the FB walked into the end zone after breaking off a big run. Literally walked. I benched him for the rest of the game and got nothing but flak. WHY? Because we were winning games. I'll make this really simple. Phuk. You. I don't owe you a {censored} thing. Who the phuk do you think you are?
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 26, 2015 21:16:02 GMT -6
I'll make this really simple. Phuk. You. I don't owe you a {censored} thing. Who the phuk do you think you are? SMH.... as I said just above, I think some of the posters here don't understand the perspectives of others. The answer to your "who do you think you are ?" question very well me "YOUR BOSS" in some situations. In others, it might very well be the case that your view is valid.
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Post by 33coach on Sept 26, 2015 21:25:04 GMT -6
I'll make this really simple. Phuk. You. I don't owe you a {censored} thing. Who the phuk do you think you are? SMH.... as I said just above, I think some of the posters here don't understand the perspectives of others. The answer to your "who do you think you are ?" question very well me "YOUR BOSS" in some situations. In others, it might very well be the case that your view is valid. I'm thankful to be apart of a separate program. I tell the HS the same thing every few years. 1) unless you cut me a check, I'm not running your system 2) unless you are donating to the program as a whole (I'm talking big bucks...percentage of the football budget), I refuse to vertically integrate. Now if I was in a feeder program deal where the AD/VHC we're the top dogs in the youth program...I might be different in my attitude.
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Post by 19delta on Sept 27, 2015 6:53:01 GMT -6
I'll make this really simple. Phuk. You. I don't owe you a {censored} thing. Who the phuk do you think you are? SMH.... as I said just above, I think some of the posters here don't understand the perspectives of others. The answer to your "who do you think you are ?" question very well me "YOUR BOSS" in some situations. In others, it might very well be the case that your view is valid. But that's not true in this thread. Non of the posters in this thread run a youth program (which I am defining as anything younger than junior high) that is school sponsored. And you can shake your head all you want. I'm not the guy in the thread who did the drive-by shooting armed with vague generalities, unfounded accusations, and unearned arrogance.
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 27, 2015 8:18:01 GMT -6
SMH.... as I said just above, I think some of the posters here don't understand the perspectives of others. The answer to your "who do you think you are ?" question very well me "YOUR BOSS" in some situations. In others, it might very well be the case that your view is valid. But that's not true in this thread. Non of the posters in this thread run a youth program (which I am defining as anything younger than junior high) that is school sponsored. And you can shake your head all you want. I'm not the guy in the thread who did the drive-by shooting armed with vague generalities, unfounded accusations, and unearned arrogance. But are they defining a youth program as younger than jr high? That is what I am SMH at. Having "coached" 10 year old, (as a 16 year old helping out after practice occasionally), Jr. high, High school (frosh, jv and varsity) and Div1AA ball I just try to look at things and peoples views from a more understanding perspective and recognize that their experiences form their thoughts and opinions.
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Post by coachcb on Sept 27, 2015 8:23:16 GMT -6
As far as I'm concerned, Friday night ball is where the Ws and Ls count. Everything beneath it needs to be developmental with a strong focus on getting the kids playing time so that they can continue to grow and build skills. I have coached under three HS HCs who have multiple state titles under their belts and their edict from JV down to the youth level was simple; every kid that shows up to practice and works gets playing time. Yeah, you might not have an undefeated JV season because you're plugging those lower level skill players in there but you're doing two things that are far more important. Firstly, you're teaching ALL of the kids that their hard work means something; not just your best 15. It's pretty hard to stay motivated to play ball when you're busting hump every day and getting better but you ride the bench. Secondly; you're giving that kid more turns at the skills he needs to be successful. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a coach say "He won't see a down on Friday nights, I don't know why we're playing him". Well,you don't know where that kid will be two months from now physically, much less a whole year. He might not be starting for you but I'll give up wins at the lower levels to try to ensure that the depth is ready to go. NOW, if these HOF coaches subscribe to this philosophy at their phuckin' JV level, then you'd better bet that youth coaches better subscribe to it too. My least favorite year coaching was with a youth team that went undefeated and won the city title because those kids had bought into the 'competitive" mentality so much that they didn't care if they played like chit and won. Practices were a PITA because no one (parents and staff included) felt like those kids had to listen and learn, simply because we were winning. I will never forget the game where we were winning 21-0 and the FB walked into the end zone after breaking off a big run. Literally walked. I benched him for the rest of the game and got nothing but flak. WHY? Because we were winning games. I'll make this really simple. Phuk. You. I don't owe you a {censored} thing. Who the phuk do you think you are? Yup, pretty typical youth coach response here. Do you bring that kind of "intensity' to your work with 5th grade football players? Do you bring that kind of "competitiveness"? Maybe you're just testy because you "had" to play some of of your "minimum playing time players" and it "cost you a game". Grow up. You're getting your panties in a bunch because I have the "arrogance" of suggesting that youth coaches should focus on teaching the kids to love the game (it's a a game... maybe you've forgotten that), versus being a weekend Lombardi. Bottom line; the WORST coaches I have ever been around were youth guys like you. It's amazing how a HOF high school coach can have a better perspective on the game than a guys that work with grade school kids. I'm done with this thread. The current culture in this country is going to keep allowing you and the rest of the Saturday Holtz coaches drive kids out of athletics and there obviously isn't much anyone can do about it.
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Post by 19delta on Sept 27, 2015 8:34:08 GMT -6
I'll make this really simple. Phuk. You. I don't owe you a {censored} thing. Who the phuk do you think you are? Yup, pretty typical youth coach response here. Do you bring that kind of "intensity' to your work with 5th grade football players? Do you bring that kind of "competitiveness"? Maybe you're just testy because you "had" to play some of of your "minimum playing time players" and it "cost you a game". Grow up. You're getting your panties in a bunch because I have the "arrogance" of suggesting that youth coaches should focus on teaching the kids to love the game (it's a a game... maybe you've forgotten that), versus being a weekend Lombardi. Bottom line; the WORST coaches I have ever been around were youth guys like you. It's amazing how a HOF high school coach can have a better perspective on the game than a guys that work with grade school kids. I'm done with this thread. The current culture in this country is going to keep allowing you and the rest of the Saturday Holtz coaches drive kids out of athletics and there obviously isn't much anyone can do about it. The only thing typical here is the arrogance of a guy who thinks his perspective somehow has greater weight because his players are older than mine. Again...phuk you. You don't pay my bills, you don't sleep in my bed. I don't owe you or anyone like you anything. You don't have a clue about what I do or what our organization is all about. As far as the worst coaches go, no...that wouldn't be me. It sounds like that would be the dipshits who are coaching your kid's team.
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Post by blb on Sept 27, 2015 8:44:08 GMT -6
Where's a lock when you need one?
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Post by 19delta on Sept 27, 2015 8:48:12 GMT -6
I'll make this really simple. Phuk. You. I don't owe you a {censored} thing. Who the phuk do you think you are? Yup, pretty typical youth coach response here. Do you bring that kind of "intensity' to your work with 5th grade football players? Do you bring that kind of "competitiveness"? Maybe you're just testy because you "had" to play some of of your "minimum playing time players" and it "cost you a game". Grow up. You're getting your panties in a bunch because I have the "arrogance" of suggesting that youth coaches should focus on teaching the kids to love the game (it's a a game... maybe you've forgotten that), versus being a weekend Lombardi. Bottom line; the WORST coaches I have ever been around were youth guys like you. It's amazing how a HOF high school coach can have a better perspective on the game than a guys that work with grade school kids. I'm done with this thread. The current culture in this country is going to keep allowing you and the rest of the Saturday Holtz coaches drive kids out of athletics and there obviously isn't much anyone can do about it. And here's another thing... Try reading people's posts before you spew your nonsense. Where have I EVER said anything about minimum minutes players? If you took the time to read my posts, you would see that in our program, everyone starts and plays somewhere. We don't have minimum minutes players. In fact, I expressly stated that we have lost games over the years BECAUSE we play everyone and that doesn't bother me at all. We are 100% a developmental program. The way to develop kids is by playing them a lot of snaps. That is EXACTLY what we do. But you were in such a hot hurry to hustle over here and drop a truth bomb on us clueless youth coaches that you didn't even bother reading all the posts. Oh, and by the way...I know a HOF coach, too. He is a huge a$$hole. Just because a guy wins a lot of games doesn't make him an expert on kids.
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 27, 2015 10:09:26 GMT -6
19delta and coachcb what I find funny is that you guys are both sparring here on the thread, yet neither one of you are really saying terribly contradictory things. coachcb is saying that he believes the theme of youth football should be to make sure everyone plays a lot, and has a good time and 19delta you are saying that your organization plays everyone a lot and makes sure they all are having a good experience. coachcb I do have to call you out and second 19delta 's point that you seem to be posting a bit without reading, as you say "the worst coaches you have been around were youth guys like 19delta" yet he describes his organization as one that does exactly what you are espousing. I think the bickering really does show the underlying issues that both coachdoug and I brought up ...there seems to be a general feeling among HS coaches that THEY are important, and all other football activities for the 7-10 or so years leading up to it aren't.
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Post by 33coach on Sept 27, 2015 10:15:17 GMT -6
19delta and coachcb what I find funny is that you guys are both sparring here on the thread, yet neither one of you are really saying terribly contradictory things. coachcb is saying that he believes the theme of youth football should be to make sure everyone plays a lot, and has a good time and 19delta you are saying that your organization plays everyone a lot and makes sure they all are having a good experience. coachcb I do have to call you out and second 19delta 's point that you seem to be posting a bit without reading, as you say "the worst coaches you have been around were youth guys like 19delta" yet he describes his organization as one that does exactly what you are espousing. I think the bickering really does show the underlying issues that both coachdoug and I brought up ...there seems to be a general feeling among HS coaches that THEY are important, and all other football activities for the 7-10 or so years leading up to it aren't. That is the biggest issue. "Only varsity HS football matters, everything else is just backyard football." That kind of mentality is wrong. It takes a good COACH to create an enjoyable season. A coach is more then a play caller/schemer/Madden player. A coach is everything from father figure to therapist for these kids. It takes A lot of off the field work to coach young kids, it's not just football. Dave cisars book outlines A lot of this stuff...everyone should read it (whether you like the scheme or not)
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Post by 19delta on Sept 27, 2015 12:00:49 GMT -6
19delta and coachcb what I find funny is that you guys are both sparring here on the thread, yet neither one of you are really saying terribly contradictory things. coachcb is saying that he believes the theme of youth football should be to make sure everyone plays a lot, and has a good time and 19delta you are saying that your organization plays everyone a lot and makes sure they all are having a good experience. coachcb I do have to call you out and second 19delta 's point that you seem to be posting a bit without reading, as you say "the worst coaches you have been around were youth guys like 19delta" yet he describes his organization as one that does exactly what you are espousing. I think the bickering really does show the underlying issues that both coachdoug and I brought up ...there seems to be a general feeling among HS coaches that THEY are important, and all other football activities for the 7-10 or so years leading up to it aren't. I'm not making any arguments. I'm simply refuting ill-conceived, vacuous, insulting, factless and over-generalized commentary that was delivered in a scattershot fashion....basically done in drunken-uncle-at-Thanksgiving style. Commentary, which, by the way, completely deviated from the original intent of this thread. Those comments are the Internet version of someone dropping a beer fart on a crowded elevator before getting off.
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Post by mahonz on Sept 27, 2015 15:50:29 GMT -6
Where's a lock when you need one? ...or the delete button. The OP hasn't even logged on since his last post so he got his answer and has moved on.
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 27, 2015 16:24:26 GMT -6
Where's a lock when you need one? ...or the delete button. The OP hasn't even logged on since his last post so he got his answer and has moved on. True--this thread has veered from the OPs original question, but I really think it shows just how big the divide can be between youth and Varsity coaches..even really good ones like 19delta and coachcb who both (even if they are crappy coaches) frequently make insightful and intelligent posts on this board.
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Post by mahonz on Sept 27, 2015 17:01:42 GMT -6
...or the delete button. The OP hasn't even logged on since his last post so he got his answer and has moved on. True--this thread has veered from the OPs original question, but I really think it shows just how big the divide can be between youth and Varsity coaches..even really good ones like 19delta and coachcb who both (even if they are crappy coaches) frequently make insightful and intelligent posts on this board. Agreed. That divide is surprising too me.
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Post by coachcb on Sept 27, 2015 17:23:15 GMT -6
I did read 19delta's post pertaining to his program's philosophy but got p.seed off and responded in a poor and unprofessional manner. For that, I do apologize.
No, I don't believe youth programs are feeders for high schools and never stated that. However, my analogies were taken as such and I should've clarified. I do believe that every youth coach's first priority needs to be to make sure that the majority of the kids play the next year. We're losing kids left and right in youth sports and it is directly attributable to the overly competitive nature of youth sports.
But, I do find the OPs statements about playing position or "favoritism" to absolutely be indicative of the issues in youth football and youth sports in general. My worst experiences as a coach have been at the youth level and it because there isn't just a lack of professionalism but a lack of maturity as well. The guys coaching my boy aren't very good coaches but at least they're good men. I'm trying to raise my boy to be a good man and he's better off surrounded by these guys.
That is far more than I can say about the youth coaches I have been around. We need more quality youth coaches (like 19delta), a better screening process for coaches and we need less competitive youth leagues. Playoffs and "championships" need to go away because it's hypocritical. "Play all the kids, teach them the game but your season will be cut short by three games if you don't win". It's just ridiculous. Now, I know there are good youth coaches out there but there are far more that are idiots. We wouldn't have kids dropping out of sports at an astronomical rate if the youth programs were quality.
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Post by jrk5150 on Sept 27, 2015 21:48:07 GMT -6
coachcb - you know, you are 100% correct.
They should also get rid of HS playoffs and championships - after all, what's the point? I mean, shouldn't the mission of HS athletics be simply to help develop better - and healthier - members of society? Why even keep score - it's just exercise, right? If it's too competitive, kids might not want to play.
Then again - I do understand that learning how to compete is important at some point, since, well, all of life has competition in some way shape or form, so let's do it this way - let's just eliminate HS sports and go to club sports like the rest of the world does. After all, that's win-win for all involved. Taxpayers are no longer funding sports for some other parents' kids. The kids themselves have a better opportunity to get the best coaching since, unlike HS sports, they can vote with their feet and go to another club if the coaching sucks. Can't do that in HS - you're stuck with whatever wanna be Bill Belichick gym teacher that the school administration hires, whether or not they can actually coach. So yeah, let's do that.
But what I really want to know - why is it okay in your mind for a 17 year old kid to have the opportunity to pursue a state title in football, but not a 12 year old kid who maybe won't grow and develop in such a way to see the field (or even play) at 17? Hmmm? Why is that 17 year old more deserving of the experience than a 12 year old? Oh, and why is what YOU happen to coach worthy of the pursuit of a title, but what I am coaching is not? Why is 14, or 15, or 16 a magic age at which running around in colored spandex is actually important?
HS coaches ARE youth coaches. Nothing more. Nothing less. I think some of you forget that. Not all, certainly, but enough to make me roll my eyes every once in a while on here.
My son just graduated from HS last spring, played football from 7 years old on. He got the best coaching - by FAR, not even close - when he was 9, 10, and 12. And it's not a coincidence he was on teams that won a lot of games those three years, and playoffs were part of the total experience. And he was on other winning teams - including a HS league title team - where the coaching wasn't nearly as good.
I'm 46 years old, and played sports at every level up to/including college (scholarship), and I remember the good youth coaches and youth experiences just as well as those in HS. And when I look back at all that and try to decide what really made a difference in my life - it was college athletics. The only part HS sports played in my overall development was getting me ready for college athletics. The W's and L's at EVERY level (including college) were frankly irrelevant to my life, although I would have enjoyed more W's. I certainly enjoyed HS sports, great memories, miss it...but it was no more (or less) important to my overall development as a human being than any other experience I had at that age, including band, girlfriend, AP History, etc.
So just realize, while you're "fixing" youth sports, you might want to include the youth sport YOU coach...
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Post by jrk5150 on Sept 28, 2015 5:29:52 GMT -6
I just felt, after sleeping on it, that I should point out my post was about perspective not about slamming anyone specifically. Frankly, we just need more good coaches at EVERY level, including HS. There really is no magic age at which this stuff becomes important on a universal basis - I'm sure a professional athlete would consider his college experience more "preparatory" - was it on here that I read an article about how NFL execs feel like college ball isn't doing enough to prepare QB's for the pros? I'm sure there are college coaches out there rolling their eyes at some HS coaches, thinking "jeez, it's just HS ball, what are they doing?" And I can tell you that a number of coaches in my youth program are disgusted at what our HS program does, in our eyes they basically under-perform their talent every single year. It's all about perspective.
The issue at hand is bad coaching - which I think is probably more likely to happen on a relative basis the younger you go. Mostly because it's primarily a volunteer endeavor taken on by people who are trying to balance job, family and then coaching in the evenings. And I would guess the passion for coaching probably exists on a curve that mirrors age - I would bet money that the percentage of coaches who are truly passionate about their craft gets higher the older you go, from youth on up to college. But passion doesn't guarantee quality, not by a long shot. I do think it makes it more likely. And I think the desire to get better that drives coaches here makes it even more likely the coaches on here aren't the problem.
Taking away playoffs isn't going to make youth sports better, that's just silly. Kids want to win, whether they answer a survey saying that or not. While it may be LESS important, doesn't mean it's not important. I realize at this point people trot out the surveys that say winning isn't on the list of what's important to kids, as someone with graduate level training in research, I question the validity of those surveys. You can't just ask a kid what's important and actually believe they understand their own motivations enough to answer it. You can't even do that with adults, people are generally self-delusional and have no idea what truly drives them. You'd have to set up a multi-year study with careful controls to measure that, and nobody is going to spend money to do that for youth sports.
I also question whether macro participation levels are down, or whether just as many kids are in sports as have always been playing, they just play many different sports vs. the few that were available 30 years ago. Which also waters down the coaching pool.
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 28, 2015 11:28:25 GMT -6
jrk5150 I think the point here is the HOW. "How" does a team go about winning. Do they do so by playing the best 11? In a youth game with 8 min quarters, it is easily conceivable to play the same 11 kids on O/D/K and not have any negative effects due to fatigue. That is the underlying issue when coaches talk about "playing to win" at the youth level. The HOW. That various across the country because youth league set ups vary across the country.
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