bl16qb
Sophomore Member
Posts: 118
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Post by bl16qb on May 31, 2015 10:05:48 GMT -6
We start tackle football in 1st grade in my city/town, and we're debating pushing the age back to like 4th or 5th.
Just curious what age you guys start tackle football at in your hometowns? Do you see any benefit to starting it at such a young age? I think moms are becoming more and more afraid of concussions and delaying the tackling aspect of the sport might benefit our program in a way.
How do you all feel?
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Post by mahonz on May 31, 2015 10:45:16 GMT -6
We start tackle in the first grade because there is a Market for it. Our League is single grade based 1st thru the 8th grade. The largest number of new registrations for all levels...the 4th grade....by a lot.
The smallest number of new registrations...the 8th grade...by a lot. We have no MS Sports where I live.
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Post by 33coach on May 31, 2015 11:16:45 GMT -6
flag goes from 4-6 here....our problem is, kids who play flag...stay flag, they dont move onto tackle, so you are starting to see "u8, u10, u12 flag teams pop up...... its just become another soccer
so im starting to push hard that flag is a waste of time. it teaches 0 fundamentals of football (blocking tackling)
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Post by coachd5085 on May 31, 2015 11:56:13 GMT -6
We start tackle football in 1st grade in my city/town, and we're debating pushing the age back to like 4th or 5th. Just curious what age you guys start tackle football at in your hometowns? Do you see any benefit to starting it at such a young age? I think moms are becoming more and more afraid of concussions and delaying the tackling aspect of the sport might benefit our program in a way. How do you all feel? The issue I have with this concept is the point of view seems to make it as if tackling is the only difference between Flag football and "tackle" (which is probably better termed 'contact') football. Obviously my comment points out the differences. They are simply two different sports, but both use a common piece of equipment. Comparing Flag football to Football isn't all that different than comparing bicycle motocross and cycling. Both use bicycles. Or Figure skating to speed skating. Both use ice skates. |
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Post by bobgoodman on May 31, 2015 15:39:55 GMT -6
The Bronx Warriors allow those who were 7 YO on April 30 choose either flag or tackle. Flag is a lot cheaper for both registr'n & gear.
Flag & touch football are about as different a sport from tackle as Rugby Union is from American football or as Gaelic or Australian football are from soccer or rugby. Yes, flag & touch do share some skills with tackle, but so do wrestling, Rugby Union or League, even baseball & basketball.
If the question were whether 11-a-side tackle football helped prepare one for 6s or Canadian football, or vice versa, the answer would be obviously yes. Flag & touch, yes & no for each. The NY Sharks were a flag club that played a game of tackle in 1999, then a full season in 2000, when I first saw them. I noticed the runners weren't quite into making the tacklers commit at the right time; instead they were making their cut an arm's length away, as if trying to avoid a flag pull. Apparently it takes a while to un-learn certain skills; they were no longer playing that way in 2001. I'm sure the same problem would be experienced transitioning from tackle to flag or touch; it certainly does between American football & Rugby Union.
The advantage flag, and even more so touch, have over tackle is that it's much easier to get up games. They draw much more particip'n than tackle well into adulthood, both organized & pickup. Unfortunately the opp'ty for coaches to do serious skulling in touch or flag football is similar to or maybe less than that in Rugby League. |
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Post by CatsCoach on May 31, 2015 16:25:23 GMT -6
Where I am kids start tackle at 7yrs/ 1st grade! Flag they strart at 5yrs old! We have a few flags leage our kids can pick from, but the one flag league that is the same has tackle is in the spring and it's coached by tackle coaches. We use flag to try and get kids interested in tackle.
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Post by coachrobpsl on May 31, 2015 17:43:46 GMT -6
I am not sure flag is even football. The games are so different that I feel flag is an avenue to teach and enhance bad technique. With that in mind I don't recommend flag at all. Our program id away with flag. On a side note, the amount of head injuries in flag were higher than tackle when we did have a flag division.
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Post by mahonz on May 31, 2015 19:12:16 GMT -6
On a side note, the amount of head injuries in flag were higher than tackle when we did have a flag division. Agreed. When I lived in the desert I coached in a 12U Winter competitive flag league. It was pretty aggressive. |
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Post by Chris Clement on May 31, 2015 19:56:32 GMT -6
I don't get any injury concerns at that age. They're too small and too slow to hurt each other, especially if you put unnecessary and heavy equipment on them, it's like walking around in a weight vest for those kids.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 31, 2015 20:37:33 GMT -6
I don't get any injury concerns at that age. They're too small and too slow to hurt each other, especially if you put unnecessary and heavy equipment on them, it's like walking around in a weight vest for those kids. While this is true, and they don't generate enough force/torque to really deliver any explosive hits, they still can collide into each other head first, and worse, hit their head against the ground. This is especially true because of the heavy equipment. Added to this is the fact that some research is out there showing that the brains are more susceptible to injury as they are not well developed yet. |
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Post by funkfriss on Jun 1, 2015 15:58:35 GMT -6
I don't get any injury concerns at that age. They're too small and too slow to hurt each other, especially if you put unnecessary and heavy equipment on them, it's like walking around in a weight vest for those kids. While this is true, and they don't generate enough force/torque to really deliver any explosive hits, they still can collide into each other head first, and worse, hit their head against the ground. This is especially true because of the heavy equipment. Added to this is the fact that some research is out there showing that the brains are more susceptible to injury as they are not well developed yet. I'll add the physical differences as well. In the bigger cities they split kids up by weight, but in small towns they do not and some combine grades (like 5th and 6th). So 5th/6th tackle football has kids from 60-180 lbs playing together against each other. Not to mention the physical maturity differences are huge at that age (and into JH for that matter). Some kids are just jacked and explosive while other fall over every time they tie their shoes. Problem is parents see flag as "soft" and don't want their tough kids doing it. And for those saying flag doesn't transfer skills, who gives a rip! There isn't a 10 year-old kid that is looking to develop his skills for high school nor should he be. He should be worried about hanging with his buddies and having a good time playing a competitive game. Period. I loved hearing the high school boys talk about their flag football Super Bowl glory days and you could tell that was something they would always remember. Now with the tackle football they play a 5-game schedule like JH and I don't hear any stories anymore. And I definitely wouldn't say these "more seasoned" players are any better than the players we were getting during the flag era. |
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Post by mahonz on Jun 2, 2015 9:32:50 GMT -6
While this is true, and they don't generate enough force/torque to really deliver any explosive hits, they still can collide into each other head first, and worse, hit their head against the ground. This is especially true because of the heavy equipment. Added to this is the fact that some research is out there showing that the brains are more susceptible to injury as they are not well developed yet. I'll add the physical differences as well. In the bigger cities they split kids up by weight, but in small towns they do not and some combine grades (like 5th and 6th). So 5th/6th tackle football has kids from 60-180 lbs playing together against each other. Not to mention the physical maturity differences are huge at that age (and into JH for that matter). Some kids are just jacked and explosive while other fall over every time they tie their shoes. Problem is parents see flag as "soft" and don't want their tough kids doing it. And for those saying flag doesn't transfer skills, who gives a rip! There isn't a 10 year-old kid that is looking to develop his skills for high school nor should he be. He should be worried about hanging with his buddies and having a good time playing a competitive game. Period. I loved hearing the high school boys talk about their flag football Super Bowl glory days and you could tell that was something they would always remember. Now with the tackle football they play a 5-game schedule like JH and I don't hear any stories anymore. And I definitely wouldn't say these "more seasoned" players are any better than the players we were getting during the flag era. A 5 game schedule? Never heard of such a thing....tackle or otherwise. I coach in a big city. We don't split the kids up by weight....only grade. Its sounds like your particular area is unique. |
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Post by oriolepower on Jun 3, 2015 13:52:24 GMT -6
I think it comes down to where you coach and why the youth league exists. If you have to offer something or you will lose all of the athletes to other sports than do what you have to do. It doesn't matter if it is tackle or flag. If they are coached well in a good league, it is good. If they are coached poorly or in a bad league structure, it probably is better to do flag.
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Post by NC1974 on Jun 4, 2015 6:54:47 GMT -6
I don't get any injury concerns at that age. They're too small and too slow to hurt each other, especially if you put unnecessary and heavy equipment on them, it's like walking around in a weight vest for those kids. Coach Clement, I used to feel the same way you did but am more on the fence now. The CTE research, while still not definitive, is suggesting that repeated "sub-concussive" blows the head may be more damaging than an actual concussion. If this turns out to be the case, 6 yr olds in pads, with zero neck strength (aka bobbleheads) running into each other, might be more harmful than we think. I'm leaning more and more toward Dr. Cantu's recommendation of starting full contact football at 13 - 14 yrs old. |
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Post by mahonz on Jun 4, 2015 13:35:19 GMT -6
I don't get any injury concerns at that age. They're too small and too slow to hurt each other, especially if you put unnecessary and heavy equipment on them, it's like walking around in a weight vest for those kids. Coach Clement, I used to feel the same way you did but am more on the fence now. The CTE research, while still not definitive, is suggesting that repeated "sub-concussive" blows the head may be more damaging than an actual concussion. If this turns out to be the case, 6 yr olds in pads, with zero neck strength (aka bobbleheads) running into each other, might be more harmful than we think. I'm leaning more and more toward Dr. Cantu's recommendation of starting full contact football at 13 - 14 yrs old. Funny post. Got together with all the Grand-kids over Memorial Day. The oldest is 11. 4 of the 7 will be playing tackle football this Fall to include one Girl ( second season ). Two fell out of the tree house, one ran into said tree on her bike, 4 got hit in the face playing tether ball more than once , all 7 fell off a skate board at one time or another, one fell down the steps ,one took a swing with a plastic baseball bat right in the face, one got stung by a bee, 4 fell off the retaining wall that was under construction, two got buried playing Mega Jinga ( pieces are made out of 2x4's) all played some tackle football with no pads while the dogs chased them.... This was in one 5 hour period. Yah....I wouldn't let young kids play tackle football either. WAY too dangerous.  If we leave it up to the Adults....football is done. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 13:26:07 GMT -6
The mere fact this is even a conversation just grates me.
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Post by 33coach on Jun 5, 2015 13:32:48 GMT -6
Coach Clement, I used to feel the same way you did but am more on the fence now. The CTE research, while still not definitive, is suggesting that repeated "sub-concussive" blows the head may be more damaging than an actual concussion. If this turns out to be the case, 6 yr olds in pads, with zero neck strength (aka bobbleheads) running into each other, might be more harmful than we think. I'm leaning more and more toward Dr. Cantu's recommendation of starting full contact football at 13 - 14 yrs old. Funny post. Got together with all the Grand-kids over Memorial Day. The oldest is 11. 4 of the 7 will be playing tackle football this Fall to include one Girl ( second season ). Two fell out of the tree house, one ran into said tree on her bike, 4 got hit in the face playing tether ball more than once , all 7 fell off a skate board at one time or another, one fell down the steps ,one took a swing with a plastic baseball bat right in the face, one got stung by a bee, 4 fell off the retaining wall that was under construction, two got buried playing Mega Jinga ( pieces are made out of 2x4's) all played some tackle football with no pads while the dogs chased them.... This was in one 5 hour period. Yah....I wouldn't let young kids play tackle football either. WAY too dangerous. If we leave it up to the Adults....football is done. We can just "invent a new game". American rugby has a good ring to it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 13:46:34 GMT -6
Funny post. Got together with all the Grand-kids over Memorial Day. The oldest is 11. 4 of the 7 will be playing tackle football this Fall to include one Girl ( second season ). Two fell out of the tree house, one ran into said tree on her bike, 4 got hit in the face playing tether ball more than once , all 7 fell off a skate board at one time or another, one fell down the steps ,one took a swing with a plastic baseball bat right in the face, one got stung by a bee, 4 fell off the retaining wall that was under construction, two got buried playing Mega Jinga ( pieces are made out of 2x4's) all played some tackle football with no pads while the dogs chased them.... This was in one 5 hour period. Yah....I wouldn't let young kids play tackle football either. WAY too dangerous. If we leave it up to the Adults....football is done. We can just "invent a new game". American rugby has a good ring to it. if you contact football is so dangerous, then why would anybody be ok with rugby. Does anybody see the stupidity of that argument. It is not you personally I am having the discussion with, 33. |
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Post by 33coach on Jun 5, 2015 15:00:18 GMT -6
We can just "invent a new game". American rugby has a good ring to it. if you contact football is so dangerous, then why would anybody be ok with rugby. Does anybody see the stupidity of that argument. It is not you personally I am having the discussion with, 33. its actually pretty normal. i know several kids in our community who play rugby, but their parents moan about the dangers of football. i think its because its an international sport that people here think its safe (i have the same feelings on soccer) americans are really as simple as "well if europe plays it, it must be good". |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 15:08:08 GMT -6
if you contact football is so dangerous, then why would anybody be ok with rugby. Does anybody see the stupidity of that argument. It is not you personally I am having the discussion with, 33. its actually pretty normal. i know several kids in our community who play rugby, but their parents moan about the dangers of football. i think its because its an international sport that people here think its safe (i have the same feelings on soccer) americans are really as simple as "well if europe plays it, it must be good". I have those same feelings, but I will leave it at that. But if they are going to allow the contact sport in rugby, but not the football? That argument is faulty at best. If one wants to claim the padding and helmet is the problem? take it off. no biggie. But that isn't an answer because safety isn't really the goal. Which leads me back to the thing I will leave out. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Jun 5, 2015 18:47:27 GMT -6
if you contact football is so dangerous, then why would anybody be ok with rugby. Does anybody see the stupidity of that argument. It is not you personally I am having the discussion with, 33. its actually pretty normal. i know several kids in our community who play rugby, but their parents moan about the dangers of football. i think its because its an international sport that people here think its safe (i have the same feelings on soccer) americans are really as simple as "well if europe plays it, it must be good". For some it might be because of unfamiliarity w it. I overheard one player years ago saying she'd tell her mother she was playing in a rugby tournament, & her mother would be like, that's fine, dear...& then wonder why her clothes got so dirty. The player figured her mother thought rugby was a card game or the like.
Anyway, as long as kids see tackle football being played, they will play it...with or without adult supervision.
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Post by coachrobpsl on Jun 19, 2015 17:03:06 GMT -6
Meshparker,
You really feel that because somebody does something in Europe it must be good? I remember when I lived in Europe and the few times I have been back hearing vendors say things like "New, from America" like somehow that made something better. The reverse is just as silly. Anyway, if you want to make an argument but don't want to justify a statement don't bother posting(the "thing I will leave out" and "I will leave it at that"). Why even bother posting that statement?. I would like to hear what you have to say, it may be very insightful or provide a useful point of view. You obviously have something to say but are being cryptic for some reason. Go ahead and say it.
I am not sure I even understand your stance on this discussion. Are you for or against youth tackle?
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Post by Chris Clement on Jun 19, 2015 19:44:21 GMT -6
If you wanted to make a better argument, it would be that there's actual scientists involved in international sports. Football is unique in how much it spends without producing anything data-driven.
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Post by bobgoodman on Jun 19, 2015 20:31:45 GMT -6
If you wanted to make a better argument, it would be that there's actual scientists involved in international sports. Football is unique in how much it spends without producing anything data-driven. The last actual data-driven change I remember was 40 yrs. ago when NCAA banned BBW on kick returns after gathering data for yrs. |
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Post by 19delta on Jun 23, 2015 16:30:41 GMT -6
Small, rural community...about 1600 in town. Tackle football starts in 3rd grade. We don't have flag football here but some of the larger communities in the surrounding area do.
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mhs99
Junior Member
Posts: 250
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Post by mhs99 on Jun 23, 2015 21:23:19 GMT -6
I must be in the minority, but I seem to disagree with nearly everyone here. 33Coach I cant disagree more that flag ins't of value. Flag is similar to soccer in that it teaches kids to burst and sprint and especially important, forces change of direction skills. I live in a community where the high school program is 4 and 5 wide throws 20+ times a game and you better believe that flag has helped hone kids with quickness and kids that can actually catch the ball. Traditional Pop Warner/Youth Programs are run heavy at a younger age and there are limited movement skills being developed.
My own kid is 8 a good athlete who plays soccer, flag, basketball, and baseball and I could less when he begins playing tackle football. He wants to in the worst way, but is 60 pounds and does it really make a difference if he starts now or at 10?
I am a head coach in a neighboring community where I live and coach in a program that is pro I and based on being very physical. I have parents ask me all the time when they should have their kids begin playing football: 6,7,8,etc. The answer, I could basically care less. As long as they are playing something and being athletic we are OK with that. We want to have them in pads by middle school because we can begin to coach them up with our staff at that point. I might have a slanted point of view as we have had a poor youth football program (now defunct) that was more about winning and less about teaching technique. We are a small program that has seen 4 linemen play college football (3 scholarship) in the past 4 years, 3 of those kids played soccer until 6th grade, they had great feet and that was that separated them from just being big kids.
The injury issue of tackle vs. flag is not a huge concern. I am sure if I was around really good, fundamentally sound youth program, i would be much more likely to steer kids that way.
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Post by 33coach on Jun 24, 2015 9:48:40 GMT -6
mhs99 I'm a defensive minded guy, I prioritize blocking and tackling and proper angles way higher then long distance running, herdball, and catching. I'd rather my kids wrestle and throw in track.
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Post by coachjtm on Jun 24, 2015 10:24:26 GMT -6
7 on 7 is useful and it produces wonderful skill position players. It promotes spacing, route recognition and one on one skills. Flag I think is exactly the same thing. Tackle promotes better footwork, hand placement, game situations that flag just doesn't. I think lots of other sports (especially soccer) can teach spacing and and one on one skills. I like having kids in pads a year or two before middle school at least. Gets them used to the helmet and pads. Gets them way more physical and understanding of what's needed at that level and the next. The flag players that I've seen generally aren't good blockers which is the number one skill you want everyone on the offensive side to do. The flag players that I've seen generally get stuck on blocks like they're glued. If I was in a middle school program and a high school program I'd want them out of flag and in pads by about 6th grade with a preference on before that.
As an 8u coach right now, I deal every year with the kids who are moving from flag to pads. Teaching them to shed/destroy blocks and to maintain a block are the two biggest skills I can give these kids.
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Post by bobgoodman on Jun 24, 2015 11:36:02 GMT -6
I think lots of other sports (especially soccer) can teach spacing and and one on one skills. Touch rugby would be another example of one like that. |
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Post by jrk5150 on Jul 7, 2015 20:32:20 GMT -6
How about I'd want them to play where they got the best fundamental coaching?
Our local flag is the NFL play 60 or whatever, it's useless. There is basically no coaching, it's an hour practice a week that is essentially optional, then it's a game on Friday or Sat night. It's below gym class as far as usefulness. Kids can't jump cut, they can't block, they have to pass certain downs, everyone is eligible, etc. What it's doing is killing tackle football because if kids start with that, they end up not wanting to play real football since it's actually hard work, and they all can't play WR. We have had really bad luck transitioning flag only kids to tackle because of that. They quit as soon as the pads go on and they realize they aren't playing WR as the biggest, slowest kid on the team who can't catch...
Our youth program is run by a guy who's been doing this for 35 years and is currently an AC at one of the premier HS programs in the Boston area. And all of our HC's from the 9 year old level up have over 10 years as HC's in the program. So our fundamentals are pretty strong, and I believe we have the right mix in priorities between winning and developing. Our retention numbers are excellent, and every year just about all of the local varsity starters are kids who came from our program. This past season I'm pretty sure every starter on the team played youth tackle football - all but one in our program, one moved in as a frosh from a neighboring town.
From a development standpoint, if you're looking at them as HS players - and there's really no reason we should do that; youth football doesn't exist to create HS players, it exists for kids to play football, but just for the sake of argument - I don't think they need more than one or two years playing tackle to catch up to everyone else. If they start as freshman, they're toast - the HS program here is used to getting kids that can play from us, so they are flat out not set up to teach fundies. Kids that come out for the first time as freshman are so far behind they get lost and never catch up. But if they start in 7th or 8th grade, they're fine by the time they're sophs and potentially able to help at the varsity level.
Here's the catch - the good athletes are going to be lost to you if they don't play football until 7th grade. Soccer, hockey, lacrosse, fall baseball, AAU basketball, etc. will gobble them up. If we don't get them early, I don't know that football will get them at all. Ever.
So yeah, if flag is a reasonable approximation to the real game, I'd agree that flag until 12 or so then a year or two of tackle in MS would be fine to develop them as HS players.
On the other hand - what about all the benefits that football offers for kids at younger ages? It was life changing for my son, who started playing at 7 (against my wishes at the time - boy, was I wrong). Why are we not giving any weight to the good it does a kid to participate in a very difficult activity like tackle football? Why is everything about HS, when half our players aren't even going to play in HS?
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