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Post by coachwoodall on Mar 24, 2015 10:44:59 GMT -6
These were the notes forwarded to us by our AD from the NFHS. I'll try to attach the entire document, but I wanted to pull a couple of specifics out:
***Team size dictates numerous variables that may affect an athlete’s potential head impact exposure. Those variables cannot be easily accounted for by stringent guidelines. For example: An athlete playing on offense, defense and special teams will have greater cumulative head impact exposure and will be at higher risk for injury than an athlete playing a single position. The fewer the number of players on a team, the greater the chance some players will need to participate in repeated drills, raising head impact exposure and potential injury risk.
This single sentence might end our game. I can't count how many threads there are about 2 platooning, that quickly turn to 'we can't do that'. If you had to strictly 2 platoon, how many school might have to either drop football or co-op their team?
***The task force also recognizes multiple contributing factors that affect head impact exposure and the parallel effects on an individual football player’s brain. For example: Position played (linemen receive more total blows than other positions) Two-way players versus those who only play offense or defense
Flag football anyone?
***Each member state association should review its current policies regarding total quarters or games played during a one-week time frame. Rationale: High School RIO injury surveillance data consistently show that competition presents the highest risk for concussion. The task force is concerned that participation in games at multiple levels of competition during a single week increases risk for head injury and unnecessarily increases head impact exposure. In addition, games played on consecutive days or those scheduled on the same day (Freshman and Junior Varsity games or Junior Varsity and Varsity games) may not allow the brain an opportunity to adequately recover. Consideration should be given to moderating these situations as much as possible.
We currently have an 8 quarter rule, and I love and the kids love; after why do kids sign up? To play the GAME. Our state association is going to do away with it and it will kill either Frosh teams or JV for many teams, and the smaller schools will have to do away with both.
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Post by fbs on Mar 24, 2015 13:02:02 GMT -6
in twenty years we will be playing 7 on 7 only... mark it.
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Post by fantom on Mar 24, 2015 13:06:08 GMT -6
These were the notes forwarded to us by our AD from the NFHS. I'll try to attach the entire document, but I wanted to pull a couple of specifics out: ***Team size dictates numerous variables that may affect an athlete’s potential head impact exposure. Those variables cannot be easily accounted for by stringent guidelines. For example: An athlete playing on offense, defense and special teams will have greater cumulative head impact exposure and will be at higher risk for injury than an athlete playing a single position. The fewer the number of players on a team, the greater the chance some players will need to participate in repeated drills, raising head impact exposure and potential injury risk. This single sentence might end our game. I can't count how many threads there are about 2 platooning, that quickly turn to 'we can't do that'. If you had to strictly 2 platoon, how many school might have to either drop football or co-op their team? ***The task force also recognizes multiple contributing factors that affect head impact exposure and the parallel effects on an individual football player’s brain. For example: Position played (linemen receive more total blows than other positions) Two-way players versus those who only play offense or defense Flag football anyone? ***Each member state association should review its current policies regarding total quarters or games played during a one-week time frame. Rationale: High School RIO injury surveillance data consistently show that competition presents the highest risk for concussion. The task force is concerned that participation in games at multiple levels of competition during a single week increases risk for head injury and unnecessarily increases head impact exposure. In addition, games played on consecutive days or those scheduled on the same day (Freshman and Junior Varsity games or Junior Varsity and Varsity games) may not allow the brain an opportunity to adequately recover. Consideration should be given to moderating these situations as much as possible. We currently have an 8 quarter rule, and I love and the kids love; after why do kids sign up? To play the GAME. Our state association is going to do away with it and it will kill either Frosh teams or JV for many teams, and the smaller schools will have to do away with both. I've been complaining for years about how out of touch the Federation is. I wonder how many members of the task force are football coaches.
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Post by jpdaley25 on Mar 24, 2015 13:23:57 GMT -6
In Tennessee, we've just gotten new regulations limiting the amount of contact we can have in a practice and the number of contact days during the week, plus the 8 quarter rule, which we didn't have before (at least not in the same form as it is now.)
My opinion: the number of injuries and concussions will rise significantly as a result, which will fuel the fire even more.
I say 10 years until the death of high school football....
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Post by agap on Mar 24, 2015 13:35:03 GMT -6
We've had the quarter rule for the past 10 or so years for sure. Why would players need to play more than 8 quarters?
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Post by fbs on Mar 24, 2015 13:35:30 GMT -6
clarify something for me because we aren't dealing with much of this down here right now as far as the uil is concerned, but it's coming... are ya'll saying the jv/frosh will be affected because they'll need more players on the varsity to comply with these rules?
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Post by mahonz on Mar 24, 2015 14:24:51 GMT -6
If baseball Pitchers have pitch counts....then why shouldn't football players have hit counts?
Makes perfect sense too me. If you cant two platoon in 11 man ball....play 8 man. Cant do it in 8 man...play 6 man.
Its still football.
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Post by fbs on Mar 24, 2015 14:36:17 GMT -6
lets be honest... it's barely football.
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Post by mahonz on Mar 24, 2015 15:12:50 GMT -6
lets be honest... it's barely football. Better than flag or 7 on 7 Nintendo ball.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2015 17:06:04 GMT -6
we may not have 10 years. We are one idiot away from schools cutting football and athletics all together.
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Post by wingtol on Mar 24, 2015 19:05:04 GMT -6
If baseball Pitchers have pitch counts....then why shouldn't football players have hit counts? Makes perfect sense too me. If you cant two platoon in 11 man ball....play 8 man. Cant do it in 8 man...play 6 man. Its still football. How does that solve anything? I don't even know what 8 or 6 man football is to be honest or how you could even enforce that. What if a kid got hurt and you couldn't two platoon? Cancel the season? The bottom line is that we as coaches seem to have no voice on this subject. You never see anyone, just as an example don't want anyone getting their panties in a bunch, like the NRA when gun rights come up advocating for football. It just seems we sit back and take whatever lies the media puts out there about our sport. The AFCA NFL Pop Warner D1 coaches who ever need to start standing up for the game. Or we are done.
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Post by coachg13 on Mar 24, 2015 19:17:24 GMT -6
To me the bottom line is the NFL and college football are too big of businesses for there not to be high school football. Even with all the "safety" stuff, the NFL and NCAA will step in with their own research blah blah before it gets to the point of no HS football.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2015 19:50:30 GMT -6
To me the bottom line is the NFL and college football are too big of businesses for there not to be high school football. Even with all the "safety" stuff, the NFL and NCAA will step in with their own research blah blah before it gets to the point of no HS football. I wouldn't bet on the NFL, specifically Goodell, or anybody from the ncaa, sticking their neck out any time soon. The whole argument about football is an act of insanity. Baseball goes and plays 8 games a day year round. Soccer? they are in shorts in all sorts of weather. 11 months of the year. They do things in hockey that get you suspended for games in football. MMA? There are no concussions in MMA? Every single argument that is used to either stop the game from being played put on a path to make the illegal is soundly contradicted in another sport. Year round is to much? really! soccer, baseball, basketball are year round. Safety. Boxing and its offspring should already be illegal. The argument is bogus.
for what its worth, which is absolutely nothing, Goodell is the reason the game is in the crosshairs its in. I have lost all faith in that man to protect the game of football.
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Post by Coach.A on Mar 24, 2015 20:06:58 GMT -6
If baseball Pitchers have pitch counts....then why shouldn't football players have hit counts? Makes perfect sense too me. If you cant two platoon in 11 man ball....play 8 man. Cant do it in 8 man...play 6 man. Its still football. How does that solve anything? I don't even know what 8 or 6 man football is to be honest or how you could even enforce that. What if a kid got hurt and you couldn't two platoon? Cancel the season? The bottom line is that we as coaches seem to have no voice on this subject. You never see anyone, just as an example don't want anyone getting their panties in a bunch, like the NRA when gun rights come up advocating for football. It just seems we sit back and take whatever lies the media puts out there about our sport. The AFCA NFL Pop Warner D1 coaches who ever need to start standing up for the game. Or we are done. Somewhat relevant to this discussion...I just read this in an article about OSU Spring practice: Meyer also said the coaching staff limited several key players - including star offensive linemen Taylor Decker and Pat Elflein - as part of the team's strategy to manage wear and tear.
Meyer calls it the 2,000 club, which stands for 2,000 competitive repetitions or plays. Those can come in games or practice. Ohio State tracks those reps and Meyer is especially cautious about the players in the 2,000 club, like Decker and Elflein.
''I think we're on the cutting edge of just being smart about the wear and tear the student athlete goes through,'' he said.
While I agree it would be near impossible for high school coaches to track this accurately, I do think all good coaches are very aware of the wear and tear their players are experiencing and they make a conscious effort to manage / minimize it. Unfortunately there are also people coaching football that are clueless about this.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2015 20:21:28 GMT -6
How does that solve anything? I don't even know what 8 or 6 man football is to be honest or how you could even enforce that. What if a kid got hurt and you couldn't two platoon? Cancel the season? The bottom line is that we as coaches seem to have no voice on this subject. You never see anyone, just as an example don't want anyone getting their panties in a bunch, like the NRA when gun rights come up advocating for football. It just seems we sit back and take whatever lies the media puts out there about our sport. The AFCA NFL Pop Warner D1 coaches who ever need to start standing up for the game. Or we are done. Somewhat relevant to this discussion...I just read this in an article about OSU Spring practice: Meyer also said the coaching staff limited several key players - including star offensive linemen Taylor Decker and Pat Elflein - as part of the team's strategy to manage wear and tear.
Meyer calls it the 2,000 club, which stands for 2,000 competitive repetitions or plays. Those can come in games or practice. Ohio State tracks those reps and Meyer is especially cautious about the players in the 2,000 club, like Decker and Elflein.
''I think we're on the cutting edge of just being smart about the wear and tear the student athlete goes through,'' he said.
While I agree it would be near impossible for high school coaches to track this accurately, I do think all good coaches are very aware of the wear and tear their players are experiencing and they make a conscious effort to manage / minimize it. Unfortunately there are also people coaching football that are clueless about this. Guys like Meyer are doing everything in the book to protect this game, Most high school and youth coaches are as well. But none of this is going to quiet those who want to see this game go away. At some point football is going to have to meet the attack with force. The critics and their attack have to be called out for what it is. I do not have any idea how that is going to happen, but all we are doing is slowing the pace of the death of football.
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Post by coachwoodall on Mar 25, 2015 6:51:55 GMT -6
Let me clarify our 8 quarter rule Kids can play 8 quarters in a calendar week - Sun-Sat
Most team in SC play Frosh/JV on Thursdays and Varsity on Friday.
So my 2nd string S$ gets to have full reps on Thursday night, but also be available if my starter goes down. Plus my 2 gets to be on Kick Off and Punt Block, so my starter can get a rest.
If I have stud 9th grader, I might dress him out on Friday too, just so he can get used to the big lights.
We're lucky, we have about 150 spread through all 3 levels. The push is allow on 6 quarters of play and the calendar would run Friday-Thursday. What a nightmare that would be trying to keep track of the paperwork on that chyt. And can you imagine the conversation, "Ummm, Johnny remember when you for 1 snap for Jimmy because he lost his mouth piece, and then later you got to rotate in a few snaps in the second half of that blow out? Well, I'm going to have to limit you in the JV game because those 12 plays puts you at risk for a life long debilitating illness"
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Post by funkfriss on Mar 25, 2015 8:10:26 GMT -6
To me the bottom line is the NFL and college football are too big of businesses for there not to be high school football. Even with all the "safety" stuff, the NFL and NCAA will step in with their own research blah blah before it gets to the point of no HS football. I wouldn't bet on the NFL, specifically Goodell, or anybody from the ncaa, sticking their neck out any time soon. The whole argument about football is an act of insanity. Baseball goes and plays 8 games a day year round. Soccer? they are in shorts in all sorts of weather. 11 months of the year. They do things in hockey that get you suspended for games in football. MMA? There are no concussions in MMA? Every single argument that is used to either stop the game from being played put on a path to make the illegal is soundly contradicted in another sport. Year round is to much? really! soccer, baseball, basketball are year round. Safety. Boxing and its offspring should already be illegal. The argument is bogus.
for what its worth, which is absolutely nothing, Goodell is the reason the game is in the crosshairs its in. I have lost all faith in that man to protect the game of football.
I would disagree. High school football is a feeder for the NCAA which feeds the NFL. Both will do the best they can. Whether that is good enough?? Still think the number 1 potential killer of high school football and all high school sports is $$, but that's another discussion. I think the #1 thing is to get as much information out to the public about the benefits (or low levels of risk) of football. Recent examples include the Steelers team doctor who came out saying that there are more head related reports to hospitals from bicycle/skate boarding than youth football. Pretty sure parents will continue to allow kids to ride bikes. Also, heard an interesting stat on the radio the other day (The Herd) that NFL players were 4x as likely to have a long-term brain illness (i.e. Alzheimer's) although that still amounted to a .17% chance (or about 2 in every 1,000 NFL players) compared to a .04% chance for the average population. However, NFL players are 20x less likely to die of heart disease which is the #1 killer in America and have longer life spans than the average population. To me, these are a few of the examples (I'm sure there are many more) that qualm the fear of brain injuries and need to be addressed to the public to help our sport. This is just another example of media sensationalism (i.e. crack babies, Ebola concerns) that needs to be put to rest with as much information as possible.
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Post by fbs on Mar 25, 2015 9:02:10 GMT -6
lets be honest... it's barely football. Better than flag or 7 on 7 Nintendo ball. Have you seen a 6 man game? It's pretty much 7 on 7. and the score is like a madden score.
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Post by mahonz on Mar 25, 2015 13:10:56 GMT -6
Better than flag or 7 on 7 Nintendo ball. Have you seen a 6 man game? It's pretty much 7 on 7. and the score is like a madden score. Yes...and I agree its pretty crazy but its still blocking and tackling. I think they even play on a smaller field so there is less space. Its only an answer for the smaller areas after the Pundits that are attacking our sport mandate 100% two platooning. Currently IMHO...nothing would shock me anymore. We might have to do what we have to do just to survive. I really hope not but right now today....Im not so sure anymore. Im a youth coach that coaches in a HUGE league that has been in business for 70 years. There are some things I see happening that are really quite scary. I started coaching in this League in 1983. If its happening in my World then its happening in yours as well.
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Post by fbs on Mar 25, 2015 13:14:00 GMT -6
well... that's partially true. the UIL will protect the moneymaker at all costs, and they know the mutiny that would ensue in this state if they step over the line.
another point to consider here... if this becomes commonplace we will be forced to combine every team we have into one varsity team (at the small school level anyway) which would mean freshmen competing with seniors and so forth. are we saying that's safer than not two platooning? I don't see it that way.
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Post by mahonz on Mar 25, 2015 13:20:46 GMT -6
If baseball Pitchers have pitch counts....then why shouldn't football players have hit counts? Makes perfect sense too me. If you cant two platoon in 11 man ball....play 8 man. Cant do it in 8 man...play 6 man. Its still football. How does that solve anything? I don't even know what 8 or 6 man football is to be honest or how you could even enforce that. What if a kid got hurt and you couldn't two platoon? Cancel the season? The bottom line is that we as coaches seem to have no voice on this subject. You never see anyone, just as an example don't want anyone getting their panties in a bunch, like the NRA when gun rights come up advocating for football. It just seems we sit back and take whatever lies the media puts out there about our sport. The AFCA NFL Pop Warner D1 coaches who ever need to start standing up for the game. Or we are done. Big City Leagues that 100% two platoon would be able to play 11 man with their 50 man rosters Medium City Leagues = 8 man with their 35 man rosters Small Town Leagues = 6 man with their 20 man rosters. For example. If mandated...what choice would you have? Just the fact that this is being suggested means its on somebody's desk for review. They are already mandating how you practice....why would format be off limits? This is a pretty good idea from an administration POV. No added training required and very little policing required. That is the reality IMHO. Its an Easy Button.
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Post by fantom on Mar 25, 2015 13:22:49 GMT -6
A thought just hit me about platooning. The concussion problems started in the NFL and that's where they're most serious. They platoon, don't they?
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dman54
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Post by dman54 on Mar 25, 2015 13:22:54 GMT -6
Here in Brazil I played without helmets and pads since i was 15. Not a single damage anywhere. I know it's not the same, but i guess people forget that football is a game of contact. If you don't want contact, play volleyball or other girl stuff. Just don't end my beloved sport, for god's sake.
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Post by mahonz on Mar 25, 2015 13:31:10 GMT -6
well... that's partially true. the UIL will protect the moneymaker at all costs, and they know the mutiny that would ensue in this state if they step over the line. another point to consider here... if this becomes commonplace we will be forced to combine every team we have into one varsity team (at the small school level anyway) which would mean freshmen competing with seniors and so forth. are we saying that's safer than not two platooning? I don't see it that way. Pop Warner and its biggest competitor American Youth Football have about a million participants combined. They field Teams with 3rd, 4th and 5th graders plying together, for example so its been done for many years already. Thing is they have a weight matrix that pretty much says....the really big and the really small cant play. Could happen to you at the HS level. Like I said...nothing would surprise me right now. Do I believe playing kids on the same team with such big age swings to be safe? Absolutely not. I completely agree with your concerns and why I hope situations like yours ends up as the road block for this kind of stuff. Two platooning makes perfect sense from a safety POV...BUT only if the schools have the numbers to do it. Translation - leave it as an option not the Rule.
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Post by mahonz on Mar 25, 2015 13:40:51 GMT -6
A thought just hit me about platooning. The concussion problems started in the NFL and that's where they're most serious. They platoon, don't they? I also believe this to be an NFL problem exclusively...but lately that belief is wavering somewhat.
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Post by fbs on Mar 25, 2015 13:54:55 GMT -6
A thought just hit me about platooning. The concussion problems started in the NFL and that's where they're most serious. They platoon, don't they? I also believe this to be an NFL problem exclusively...but lately that belief is wavering somewhat. I disagree completely. It's not an NFL problem. at the end of the day we have to get out of coach mode and understand that the problems these people are having are because of the game we love, and the problem is not like global warming... it's actually a real thing. I'm a huge believer in implied risk. It just shouldn't come as a shock to anyone that a game that involves using the head as a weapon will have its share of concussion issues. The reason people see it as something that started in the NFL is there's enough money in the right hands to study NFL players, and it's a concentrated issue unlike HS ball which is spread across the nation. Don't forget that the NFL players that have these issues (which admittedly are when they are the most severe) have made a life out of playing a really violent game, and have at that point done it for over a decade. Make no mistake, this process that culminates later in life begins at the youth label. Again, I'll fight for this sport until I'm dead, but to say it's not a problem is just plain stupid, and is more dangerous to our sport than anything else.
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Post by fantom on Mar 25, 2015 14:02:48 GMT -6
I also believe this to be an NFL problem exclusively...but lately that belief is wavering somewhat. I disagree completely. It's not an NFL problem. at the end of the day we have to get out of coach mode and understand that the problems these people are having are because of the game we love, and the problem is not like global warming... it's actually a real thing. I'm a huge believer in implied risk. It just shouldn't come as a shock to anyone that a game that involves using the head as a weapon will have its share of concussion issues. The reason people see it as something that started in the NFL is there's enough money in the right hands to study NFL players, and it's a concentrated issue unlike HS ball which is spread across the nation. Don't forget that the NFL players that have these issues (which admittedly are when they are the most severe) have made a life out of playing a really violent game, and have at that point done it for over a decade. Make no mistake, this process that culminates later in life begins at the youth label. Again, I'll fight for this sport until I'm dead, but to say it's not a problem is just plain stupid, and is more dangerous to our sport than anything else. I'll just have to say that, in my stupidity, I believe that the problem below the NFL level is more of a perception problem than a real health issue. I'm happy to see the steps that have been taken to make the sport more safe- concussion protocols, targeting rules, practice restrictions- but I don't see any evidence that, especially with the new rules, HS football causes a great risk of future dementia.
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Post by mahonz on Mar 25, 2015 14:03:04 GMT -6
I also believe this to be an NFL problem exclusively...but lately that belief is wavering somewhat. I disagree completely. It's not an NFL problem. at the end of the day we have to get out of coach mode and understand that the problems these people are having are because of the game we love, and the problem is not like global warming... it's actually a real thing. I'm a huge believer in implied risk. It just shouldn't come as a shock to anyone that a game that involves using the head as a weapon will have its share of concussion issues. The reason people see it as something that started in the NFL is there's enough money in the right hands to study NFL players, and it's a concentrated issue unlike HS ball which is spread across the nation. Don't forget that the NFL players that have these issues (which admittedly are when they are the most severe) have made a life out of playing a really violent game, and have at that point done it for over a decade. Make no mistake, this process that culminates later in life begins at the youth label. Again, I'll fight for this sport until I'm dead, but to say it's not a problem is just plain stupid, and is more dangerous to our sport than anything else. When the sky first began to fall I thought...OK the NFL is play at all cost or lose your job so...play hurt. They do not wear proper fitting helmets with hard cup chinstraps and a molded mouth piece. Some didn't even wear pads in their pants. Add in the speed of the game and the atmosphere some fall under of keeping their job...steroids and the like....and the fact they have the money to party....OK....that is not my World. Now...after a few more years of paying attention....Im with you! There is more too it. Like I said....my beliefs are now wavering. Plus I want to do right by the kids. I am coaching other peoples kids. So...Im paying even more attention to all this business now.
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Post by fbs on Mar 25, 2015 14:43:53 GMT -6
I disagree completely. It's not an NFL problem. at the end of the day we have to get out of coach mode and understand that the problems these people are having are because of the game we love, and the problem is not like global warming... it's actually a real thing. I'm a huge believer in implied risk. It just shouldn't come as a shock to anyone that a game that involves using the head as a weapon will have its share of concussion issues. The reason people see it as something that started in the NFL is there's enough money in the right hands to study NFL players, and it's a concentrated issue unlike HS ball which is spread across the nation. Don't forget that the NFL players that have these issues (which admittedly are when they are the most severe) have made a life out of playing a really violent game, and have at that point done it for over a decade. Make no mistake, this process that culminates later in life begins at the youth label. Again, I'll fight for this sport until I'm dead, but to say it's not a problem is just plain stupid, and is more dangerous to our sport than anything else. I'll just have to say that, in my stupidity, I believe that the problem below the NFL level is more of a perception problem than a real health issue. I'm happy to see the steps that have been taken to make the sport more safe- concussion protocols, targeting rules, practice restrictions- but I don't see any evidence that, especially with the new rules, HS football causes a great risk of future dementia. read my post again, friend. I did not call you stupid. What I'm saying is that the worst thing we can possibly do is go about our business like our sport (our livelihood for some of us) is not in danger here, because it is.
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Post by fbs on Mar 25, 2015 14:45:51 GMT -6
I disagree completely. It's not an NFL problem. at the end of the day we have to get out of coach mode and understand that the problems these people are having are because of the game we love, and the problem is not like global warming... it's actually a real thing. I'm a huge believer in implied risk. It just shouldn't come as a shock to anyone that a game that involves using the head as a weapon will have its share of concussion issues. The reason people see it as something that started in the NFL is there's enough money in the right hands to study NFL players, and it's a concentrated issue unlike HS ball which is spread across the nation. Don't forget that the NFL players that have these issues (which admittedly are when they are the most severe) have made a life out of playing a really violent game, and have at that point done it for over a decade. Make no mistake, this process that culminates later in life begins at the youth label. Again, I'll fight for this sport until I'm dead, but to say it's not a problem is just plain stupid, and is more dangerous to our sport than anything else. When the sky first began to fall I thought...OK the NFL is play at all cost or lose your job so...play hurt. They do not wear proper fitting helmets with hard cup chinstraps and a molded mouth piece. Some didn't even wear pads in their pants. Add in the speed of the game and the atmosphere some fall under of keeping their job...steroids and the like....and the fact they have the money to party....OK....that is not my World. Now...after a few more years of paying attention....Im with you! There is more too it. Like I said....my beliefs are now wavering. Plus I want to do right by the kids. I am coaching other peoples kids. So...Im paying even more attention to all this business now. well said.
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