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Post by morris on Mar 12, 2015 4:44:49 GMT -6
For the guys that two platoon or pretty close to it, how do you divide up the talent? Do you let the offense get a QB, RB and a WR and everything else is free game? Does one side of the ball get fleshed out more first? We are looking at moving to two platoon or as close to it as we can and I'm looking for ideas.
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Post by woodyboyd on Mar 12, 2015 5:34:35 GMT -6
We have been complete two platoon for about 10 years. We have 450-500 (depends on the year) boys in the school. This year we had 96 kids in our program grades 10-12. After the 9th grade season, the kids may select which side of the ball they'd like to play. Up through 9th grade, players learn both an offensive and defensive position. The decision on positions is left entirely to the kids. We ask them to choose a position by the June entering their Sophomore year. We rarely encourage a player to choose a particular position. Having been in this situation for nearly a decade, we will never go back to two-way players (even for special athletes). When we committed to this approach, we had about 60 players in grades 10-12. Each year we have seen an increase in participation as students know that two-platooning gives them an opportunity to get on the field. In any varsity contest, we typically have 40-50 different kids on the field between offense, defense, and special teams. We have found that when kids know they will get a chance to play on Fridays, they work harder in practice and participation levels increase. This approach may not work for your particular situation, but it has helped us immensely. The number one thing we contribute to our success (multiple state titles since we adopted this two-platoon approach) is our commitment to the two-platoon system. It has taken our program to another level. Our players are fresher and more focused. Some will argue that we do not get our best players on the field enough, but our goal is to get as many students in the school on our football team. We feel that this increase in numbers far outweighs any gain we get by having someone play two-ways.
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Post by realdawg on Mar 12, 2015 9:17:37 GMT -6
I am not a HC. And we don't do it. But if we did the O would get the first two picks. Qb and whoever else they wanted. Next 11 go to the D
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dman54
Sophomore Member
Learning everyday...
Posts: 212 
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Post by dman54 on Mar 12, 2015 9:25:46 GMT -6
I try to make 2 platoon, but don't have the numbers to do it. But the guys that play O and D are athletic enough to play both ways, but they always have a sub for each position he play, because of course he will have to rest sometimes.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Mar 12, 2015 10:17:56 GMT -6
We 2 platoon- first time in the last 8 years was this past season. Not surprisingly it was our best year during the period in both performance and player buy-in.
I'm the HC and DB coach- having moved the the position after serving as a longtime OL and OC. Our biggest priority is putting the best overall players on the field. Defensively we look for these things in ORDER OR IMPORTANCE:
1) Able to Tackle
2) Willing to Tackle
3) Overall on-field speed/quickness
4) Toughness/Nastiness
For me, I will NOT put a kid on the field that can't tackle for obvious reasons. Then if they can tackle in drills and practice WILL they stick their nose in the mix...if not they get replaced. If those things are equal we take the kid with best on-field quickness and agility...don't care about size necessarily.
Last is toughness- I believe that this can be taught/coerced out of kids.
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Post by jcamerot on Mar 12, 2015 10:55:26 GMT -6
We never had any 'hard and fast' rules for deciding who could fit in the most optimum position. Several kids are just obvious where they belong to help the team in the best way. Others are a negotiation between the staff. Skill kids were the easiest to place. Most of our debates are almost always about linemen. If you haven't 2 platooned before, be aware that the majority of your time probably should be spent properly organizing your staff as far as their coaching responsibilities. Also, how will the lower levels be handled? How is practice planned to allow quality team time for both varsity and lower levels? etc......
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Post by Yash on Mar 12, 2015 12:58:33 GMT -6
For those teams that say "Offense gets QB, Defense gets next 11 picks" Is that really how you do it? We are what I consider 1.5 platoon. WR's and Corners play both ways (or at least know both ways.) Once we determine a kid isn't good at one or the other they just practice the position they are better at. OL only plays OL (other than one stud who played on defense in spot duty) RB's only play one way other than one kid who played LB and RB a little towards end of season and playoffs. So we had 5-6 kids who were able to play both ways. Only 1 started both ways the entire year. 2 others started both ways late in season but were subbed out to keep fresh.
The reason I ask, does defense really get the next 11 picks is that our RB had 1600 yards last year and would have been a study linebacker, but we wouldn't have scored crap for points if he wasn't playing running back. I think you just have to be smart about selecting players. We are split back veer, so our offensive line needs 2 solid guards and a smart, quick but not big center. The tackles can be awful. You just have to be smart about where you need your studs because you do need to score. Our conference is not a passing conference. We led the conference as a split back veer team with around 900 yards passing in 9 games. Because of this, we get away with playing some not great athletes at corner. We put them in a shuffle, shuffle, bail technique and don't let them ever get beat deep. We have been very successful defending the pass doing this.
Bottom line is, what works for you vs the opponents that you play and fits the scheme that you run. You know where you need studs (on both sides of the ball) and where you can get away with not having the best of players. There will be some staff battles for guys but thats ok. Coach up whoever you have.
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Post by keysersoze on Mar 13, 2015 1:11:04 GMT -6
I have a friend to two platoons at a medium sized school (~1000 kids). He explains it this way: everyone knows who your QB and TB are. After those two, every other good athlete goes to the defense. You always have good athletes who don't like contact so they become receivers. The leftovers are offensive linemen. He adds that while the offensive line is the worst collection of athletes, they are the most important unit on the team. He's had a ton of success (multiple state championships) and I think that as some of the other posters have mentioned that the two platoon philosophy has gotten more kids out. The knowledge that they have an opportunity to work their way into a meaningful role, they buy into the off season program which makes them better athletes. Because they have an opportunity to play, they work harder than they would have otherwise and end up better than they would have been otherwise.
I think a lot of single platoon football programs are able to get the best 14 or so football players out for football but, I think in many cases #15-20 might be playing basketball or baseball because they're good athletes who have options but can't start. Two platooning allows you to create a place for those kids as well as the other kids who are hoping to create a niche in the program.
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Post by morris on Mar 13, 2015 6:42:31 GMT -6
Thank you everyone for your input and I hope more people chime in.
We were throwing yesterday and a coaching friend was watching us. He knows I am planning to just pull the plug and go two platoon. He was really impressed with one of our kids as a rec which I told the kid was more than likely going to play defense and not offense. He couldn't believe I was even thinking of restricting the kid to one side.
I have started asking kids which side they would prefer to get an idea. The players also appear to be pretty excited about going to a two platoon system.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Mar 13, 2015 7:18:56 GMT -6
I need to say this as a disclaimer-
I came into the season with the idea of "Best 11 play defense," and within the first week that concept was busted. I really adopted the "best 11 defenders" play defense. We had 4 studs offensively- RB/QB/2WR...3 of which could EASILY out athlete many of the guys who started defensively for us. The issue is that there obviously exists different skill sets within the O/D units, and we try to take advantage of what the kids do "naturally." The 2 WR could have easily started at DB for us in years past, but when We made a list of our top 25 players on the team, top to bottom, having those kids start both ways would have kept our 2 of those top 25 players from playing. So I questioned our staff "Why should we have young guys ride the pine behind kids that will be worn out in the 4th qrt late in the year?" We all agreed we would be better off playing those lesser athletes early in the year and developing them in game situations. We took lumps at times but set ourselves up for this season:
-We will return ALL 11 offensive starters and 8 more guys who got 10 qrts or more in backup role playing time
-We return 9 starters on defense, and our best offensive guys will serve as backups for them in most situations.
2 platooning allowed us to have 30+guys getting meaningful snaps in varsity games throughout the season, not including special teams! We have tried to turn the corner as a program who used to ride 1-2 good players on both sides of the ball year-to-year and struggle to win 3 games to a program who went .500 in the toughest league in the state with almost ALL underclassmen starters.
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Post by crock1615 on Mar 13, 2015 8:44:48 GMT -6
what do you guys think is the minimum number of players that you need in your program to effectively two platoon?
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Mar 13, 2015 9:21:00 GMT -6
22 starters
5-10 backups
so...27-32 guys on varsity? Just a guess?
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Post by mrjvi on Mar 13, 2015 14:28:51 GMT -6
We 2 platoon our lines. We try to do that with skills kids but end up doing a 1 1/2 system with a few. They would start on D but rotate at times as backs on O. A few O-linemen may do the same as also LB's at times. I think you really have to look at some kids and believe that full reps all practice at one position will make a decent player pretty darn good. That's hard to do sometimes. I am able to do that the most on the O line. With our amount of O play reps we do, I've developed some great lines with average kids by season's end.
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Post by coachjm on Mar 13, 2015 15:05:35 GMT -6
what do you guys think is the minimum number of players that you need in your program to effectively two platoon? We are at a small school right now that doesn't two platoon, however, we do try to play everyone and we do have many kids play just one side of the ball however, with 125 boys in the school two platooning isn't an option. My last two stops had 1,000 kids and it is my belief that once you get 35 or more playing for your varsity it benefits you to two platoon. If you have a minimum of 17-18 kids per side of the ball you will suddenly find that you have many more kids come out you will be shocked to see your roster jump from that to 50 in a year or two as your retention numbers will be up and kids will be more engaged. Kids having HOPE does an amazing thing to their motivation! |
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Post by 19coach78 on Mar 13, 2015 16:10:06 GMT -6
Just a question for all. when you go 2 platoon what happens at the JV Level? I imagine the number of available bodies is less ? I have tried to get the HC to at least try it in the pre season but no go. Plan was to have him pick OC QB TB and WR the the D picks 11. Maybe some day
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Post by jackedup on Mar 13, 2015 17:07:17 GMT -6
At my previous school, we 2 platooned. I had 18 guys on defense and the HC had 17 on Offense. We then worked 2 guys as cross-over guys. When playoffs were coming around, we started working 2-3 more both ways but were just backups who rotated in every couple of series. That system at such a small school (only ~300 boys in the school) worked well for us; it really proved that it can be done.
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Post by jcamerot on Mar 13, 2015 17:43:02 GMT -6
We platooned at the Varsity and JV level (freshmen practiced separately and learned both sides of the ball). Varsity & JV kids were together for Indy & small group work. Special Teams were done separately. When we went to team, varsity would go offense & JV would go defense (on separate fields). We would leave one defensive coach to stay and run the scout group for the varsity offense and the rest of the defensive staff would go work with the JV defense (one offensive coach would go run the JV scout offense). Then at the end of the period we would switch sides of the ball--worked well.
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Post by shotgunfivewide55 on Mar 13, 2015 19:21:08 GMT -6
I have tried to two platoon two separate times over the last 25 years, neither time worked out well for us for the particular season and I went away from it. our biggest problem was that our defense was always very good and kept us in the game, problem was scoring on offense and I guess my thinking I could take mostly second teamers and turn them into really good starters. What we have really gotten better over the years is the ability to play a lot of players and find roles for them to excel at. I hate to use the term but I guess it would be multiple personnel groupings. A team that specializes in short-yardage situation where we can use linemen or fullback types. we have convinced the kids and our other coaches that we are going to get 30 kids plus to go. Instead of 2 platoon we shoot to get 17-20 kids ready to play on both o and d, not including special teams. biggest thing is that after the initial year of starting a new program we are never rebuilding as me as we are reloading. usually losing 5 or 6 real starters on both sides but we have quality backups that have gotten lots of meaningful snaps. we also have guys coaching their positions monitoring our snaps played, it is not hard to do. we feel that by doing this we can still 10-15 plays a game for our starters and keep them fresh at the end of the game. we really sale the fact to our backups to make the most of the plays they play whether it be 3 plays or 15 per game
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Post by 44dlcoach on Mar 13, 2015 19:42:25 GMT -6
We are in the "1.5 platoon" category. Our line learns to play both sides, but we usually only have one starting lineman who moonlights on the other side of the ball. Could be a full time OL who helps on our DL (last year) or a full time DL who helps on the OL (year before). For the rest of the guys learning to play both ways in individual it mostly pays off on scout team.
Generally speaking our skill guys play one position, and generally speaking that position defines itself pretty quickly, but we will teach some skill guys to play both ways based on our own evaluation and feel. Usually these are guys who are good enough to be the primary backup at a spot on both sides of the ball but aren't going to be a starter on either side even if they focused on it exclusively.
If we have a guy who is a game breaker on one side of the ball that's where he's going to spend his time, even if he'd be good enough to be a starter on the other side. For instance we had a receiver a couple of years ago who could have easily been our best linebacker but not necessarily a game breaker, but was a 20 TD player on offense, that dude played offense only. We figured the 20 TDs helped us out quite a bit defensively.
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Post by sweep26 on Mar 14, 2015 10:53:49 GMT -6
When considering going to the 2 platoon system concept in a normal high school level football program, do you ever think about how the Law of Diminishing Returns might effect that choice?
I fully understand the extra reps factor and how those reps theoretically equate to becoming more skillful and efficient at executing specific skills, along with the diminished fatigue factor which is referenced above. However, I have a difficult time understanding how those factors can overcome extreme talent differential.
In my mind's eye it seems as though you need both, more talented players and more quality coaches in order to make 2 platoon football work in an average high school football program. More players and more coaches do not necessarily equate to a better product...thus my reference to the Law of Diminishing Returns.
I remember watching a documentary on the De LaSalle Football Program, when they were in the midst of their historical winning streak...at that time (the Maurice Jones-Drew era) they had 9 players going both ways.
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Post by fballcoachg on Mar 14, 2015 11:44:03 GMT -6
I will echo woody's sentiments on 2 platooning. I also agree that players are fresher and more focused and that doesn't even mention how much better they get when they are only practicing one position and how much more developed your offense and defense can be given that you practice O/D EVERYDAY. Our schedule was full of 2 platoon teams and we were 2 platoon but once we got in the playoffs - just about every team had several 2 way players and they could hang in the first half, but in the 2nd their drop off was obvious. I like the idea of having the kids chose their position coming out of their freshman year. I will forward that idea to the HC. The way we go about it is: Make the defense as good as it can be. That doesn't always mean the best players play defense, it means I get the players I want within reason. Offensively they take the QB and then I get the next 11. Having said that, I think you have to have some common sense about it. As a DC I only ask for what I need and I'm not trying to poach all the best players or athletes. Typically almost any Dlinemen could be an offensive linemen but not all offensive linemen can play dline. (oddly enough, the most arguments happen between me,dline coach and the oline coach. lol) For example: Our RBs last year, sure they could have played defense for us but they are running backs, they look like running backs, they play like running backs - they are running backs but they are also good athletes who could play CB and safety...the question is who else is there and how much would the drop off be at CB and safety? The drop off wasn't as much as some thought and we never needed them to play defense. We did get the leading receiver moved to the defensive side last year, he played FS and was such an monumental difference for us as a defense. (and his dad threw a fit and hated me because his dad thought he was a receiver...until he was first team all state, now we are BFF's and he thanks me...parents eh?) To me that's the balance you have to find as the HC. I mean the defense needs to be great, but you also have to be able to score points. But you can't out score everyone. So the 1 to 11 rule is just kind of a guideline. It's funny that this thread comes up at this time. We are going to a new school next year and they had numerous players going both ways. When asked what position they play the kids always respond O/D or D/O (to me that tells me ahead of time which one they prefer) I always say "you're going to have to pick one" and they say "Nah, I'm going to play both ways" and I reply "Well there is zero chance of that happening, so you're going to have to pick one." If you have the numbers, 2 platoon is definitely the way to go. Three major questions: 1) "If you have the numbers..." What are those numbers? 2) Going in to a new decision how do you decide which players play O or D? Do you guys have them work both sides during camp and then make the call? Is it a continuous evaluation? 3) What do you do with Freshman? |
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Post by unc31 on Mar 14, 2015 14:40:48 GMT -6
We have been complete two platoon for about 10 years. We have 450-500 (depends on the year) boys in the school. This year we had 96 kids in our program grades 10-12. After the 9th grade season, the kids may select which side of the ball they'd like to play. Up through 9th grade, players learn both an offensive and defensive position. The decision on positions is left entirely to the kids. We ask them to choose a position by the June entering their Sophomore year. We rarely encourage a player to choose a particular position. Having been in this situation for nearly a decade, we will never go back to two-way players (even for special athletes). When we committed to this approach, we had about 60 players in grades 10-12. Each year we have seen an increase in participation as students know that two-platooning gives them an opportunity to get on the field. In any varsity contest, we typically have 40-50 different kids on the field between offense, defense, and special teams. We have found that when kids know they will get a chance to play on Fridays, they work harder in practice and participation levels increase. This approach may not work for your particular situation, but it has helped us immensely. The number one thing we contribute to our success (multiple state titles since we adopted this two-platoon approach) is our commitment to the two-platoon system. It has taken our program to another level. Our players are fresher and more focused. Some will argue that we do not get our best players on the field enough, but our goal is to get as many students in the school on our football team. We feel that this increase in numbers far outweighs any gain we get by having someone play two-ways. Coach, good response. We, too are going two platoon this year and after doing a lot of research and talking to coaches who do it, there are still a few variables in my mind. We have been highly successful not platooning. However I feel that we must in order to reach the ultimate goal.
Most coaches I have talked to have echoed your philosophy of two way players in 9th grade and then deciding O or D on each player.
My problem with that is that we have only one staff...not separate JV and Varsity staffs. We have no 9th grade team. In this scenario I do not see how we could have 9th graders as two way players and 10th graders (JV) as one way players. It seems that practice logistics would be a nightmare.
I apologize to the original poster and hope I did not highjack the thread. I though this may be an adjunct to your original question.
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Post by morris on Mar 14, 2015 14:52:45 GMT -6
No it's a great question? I know a few of the guys I've talked to will switch kids from year to year to whatever they need to do to fit. Honestly any information about two platooning is great to hear.
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ezpl
Freshmen Member
Posts: 65
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Post by ezpl on Mar 14, 2015 15:20:46 GMT -6
One question that I'd like to ask that I don't believe I've seen anyone discuss, is what happens if you have injuries or an injury? Is there enough players to have that depth or do you bring over a player from the other side the ball and play both ways?
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Post by mrjvi on Mar 14, 2015 16:45:16 GMT -6
Injuries are a great point to discuss. It definitely should have changed my few who went both ways to more who had to. Actually hurt us a bit in our state playoff game this past season as the backups who had to fill in just were not quite good enough. They were during most of the season but not when we had to compete against the bigger dogs. I should have played more of my better players both ways in that game rather than use the backups and accept that they might run out of gas. (but they would have been better until that point)
I guess you need to assess your 1 way player backups. Not as good but fresh or better players now 2 way fighting fatigue.
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Post by soonerj355alan on Mar 14, 2015 18:04:11 GMT -6
I have been on staffs that did this every way you can imagine. My biggest issue lies with #2's and young kids.
I have no problem making as many of the starters as you can one way players...in fact I think its ideal to do this due to reps, learning, etc. Where you run into problems is the other kids. Sometimes you can decide on 6 lineman, 4 linebackers, etc and get those select #2's to be one way players also. But, when you go full two platoon and decide a kid as a 10th grader needs to be defense only and then injuries occur that year in the middle of the season, it is hard to throw a kid in to offense when he has never even heard the offense before. This may result in being forced to play a lesser player at that position.
My other issue comes in when the next year rolls around and you may need see that kid on offense due to graduation but he never got a single rep as a sophomore and is basically starting from scratch.
IMO, the ideal way to go about this is two platoon the most varsity players you can each year. If a few need to go both ways or be swing guys for both sides of the ball then you do it as necessary. But if you are a young kid playing JV and not seeing much if any time on Fridays you need to be practicing both sides until you surpass someone or injuries make it where you have to step in. This way, we can get a kid ready in three days to play either side of the ball as needed because he at least has an understanding of what we are doing.
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Post by groundchuck on Mar 14, 2015 18:23:41 GMT -6
If you have numbers and coaches, nothing is better. If you don't have the numbers your depth will suffer. If you have to move up too many sophomores or freshmen to fill spots it can hurt your JV games.
Now if you do have numbers there is nothing better. It helps you win games, it helps you in practice. It helps staff meetings.
I would say if you are close to having enough numbers it's a good thing.
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Post by smfreeman on Mar 15, 2015 7:00:43 GMT -6
If you have numbers and coaches, nothing is better. If you don't have the numbers your depth will suffer. If you have to move up too many sophomores or freshmen to fill spots it can hurt your JV games. Now if you do have numbers there is nothing better. It helps you win games, it helps you in practice. It helps staff meetings. I would say if you are close to having enough numbers it's a good thing. Coach you are spot on... for me I have always coached in a smaller football state. The average 9-12 team has about 50-60 total players. There is only one school in our state that 2 platoons and it is the largest with the wealthiest students. We had a new HC come in to our area and he had always been 2 platoon in his old state which made their average talent much more successful do to all the above mentioned information. So he comes into his new school which hasn't had much success when he took over. He tried to implement 2 platoon and even though they had some good talent they went 0-10. The main issue was in our state most schools just do not have enough players to 2 platoon and he could not get the players needed on the LOS. That coach has gone on to lead that school to one of the top programs in the state by playing players both ways. I really think that coaches have to take in to account how many kids and their talent level compared to other schools. |
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Post by Yash on Mar 15, 2015 13:32:45 GMT -6
I also think that scheme plays into 2 platooning. On offense if you run a system that relies heavily on talent, you will struggle. But if you run a system that you can get away with some lesser talent in the line (DW, Option) you can platoon at least the line, possibly the QB and maybe a few other kids.
I think your goal has to be get as many kids to play 1 way as possible. Along the way you will play a few both ways but limit it as much as you can, and to the games that you need to do it in.
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Post by coachfloyd on Mar 16, 2015 9:13:42 GMT -6
I think the biggest issue is the offense and defense being on the same page. Ive been in situations before where one side didnt want to give up someone because they were afraid they might look worse even though it was better for the team. Some guys are coaching to move up and not to win. That may be a different thread all together though.
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