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Post by brophy on Dec 7, 2014 12:42:11 GMT -6
I propose to study deception's role in football by analogy with its role in military thought and water is wet this will only work if football is, in fact, a war game. war game in football is what, exactly, a scrimmage where assistants/coordinators go after each other to "win" (an exercise to galvanize strategy)? war game is assistants/coordinators calling sessions using the tactics of the opponent? war game is just thought exercises to create a new way to call a game? if i've been coaching at Big Blue High in South Carolina for the past 8 years, what does any of this study do for me and my program? What would it influence me to do differently (logistics)?
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Dec 7, 2014 13:16:19 GMT -6
OK, I'm officially confused -- the parallels between deception in football and in military usage are too obvious to bear comparison, BUT -- football as a war game is out of bounds?
...and I think the "how this helps you at Big Blue" info needs to wait until I can establish that the two sentences you requested are germane and useful, no?
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Post by brophy on Dec 7, 2014 13:25:54 GMT -6
-- football as a war game is out of bounds? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wargamingwar game in football is what, exactly, a scrimmage where assistants/coordinators go after each other to "win" (an exercise to galvanize strategy)? war game is assistants/coordinators calling sessions using the tactics of the opponent? war game is just thought exercises to create a new way to call a game?
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 7, 2014 13:51:49 GMT -6
I disagree strongly, coach, and here's why: I have no interest in making "campaign tactics" a topic of interest for football coaches -- at least, not a football topic of interest. What I have got an interest in is examining the vast literature on military deception as a potential road map for how to do deception better in football. Got it. The issue: YOU have that interest. Most here have an interest in deception in football regardless of source material. I think the enlarged text should act as a mirror to help you understand the Push-Back in the thread (other than the "war" stuff). I mean Ted, you basically have taken a tone of astonishment or disbelief that not everyone else here is getting off on this like you are. That isn't negative statement, just trying to hold a mirror here and help you see this. In my opinion, A-type deception corresponds directly with option football in all its guises, while M-type deception explains the enduring success of series-based attacks such as the Single Wing, the Markham/Wyatt Double Wing, the Wing-T, and, as I argue [ahem] elsewhere, my Wild Bunch offense. [/quote] That is great, but again, while it may be relative or applicable it certainly is not NECESSARY or even beneficial to football coaches. push-back on this thread has been so vociferous. I believe, as I have stated previously in this thread, that comparing war to any sort of game makes some people unhappy, and I think coachmonkey's remarks reinforce that point. To be honest, it probably wouldn't. Again, I think you just are failing to realize that many if not most coaches AREN'T into "why and how a play obtains "constraint" status--(and personally, I am not a fan of that constraint theory thread either). They ARE interested in "If the backside DE keeps crashing and basckside LB folding in, then you can counter with _______" Ted, YOU find this topic interesting. Apparently many others don't. Just my thoughts on why this thread is 4 pages without much going for it. You didn't say "Tom Brady is the greatest of all time" or "Tom Brady vs Peyton Manning...discuss". You said "Tom Brady is a really good quarterback", to which I am not sure anyone is going to differ. Yes, it does, or I would not have used it. Remember the context of this thread, once the wargame/don't use war part is stripped away, I simply you citing military writings regarding deception and tactics and relating them to football. Not much to discuss there.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 7, 2014 13:55:28 GMT -6
...and I think the "how this helps you at Big Blue" info needs to wait until I can establish that the two sentences you requested are germane and useful, no? NO, not for a football coach, and that is why I think you seem confused about the reaction to the thread. A football coach is looking for ideas to stress the force player, to put the deep half player in conflict, to expose an over-agressive but superior player etc. A football coach does not need you to establish points like you are defending an academic thesis.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Dec 7, 2014 14:02:24 GMT -6
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Dec 7, 2014 22:00:36 GMT -6
Ted, YOU find this topic interesting. Apparently many others don't. Well, with over 3,800 page views, and 14 posts (and counting) from coachd5085, I may not be as lonely here as you might think... Coaches, I will wind up here by stating that the what and how of football are as important to me as to any of you; it's just that I'm not content to stop there, without asking the why question, and neither are many of you, I would wager. If that's the case, stop on by my blog some time, and have a look at my book while you're at it.
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Post by spreadjet31 on Dec 8, 2014 13:09:54 GMT -6
Coach: Any implication on my part that this might be true of anyone else on this thread, even those who equate football with "beating your man", has been retracted and apologized for -- so what is your point? I was simply replying to tiger46 and explaining that my issue was not a confusion of the terms, but rather just the tone you had taken in the first few pages of the thread. Bottom line here tedseay, once you strip away the fancy lingo and citations, is that you have made an observation basically stating "There are fakes/misdirection in football, and there are fakes/misdirection in warfare. So Football is a wargame". You are looking for a discussion, but after tripping away the debate about using the "war" comparison, I think the only other comment is "Umm.. yeah, ok. Both have misdirection. And.... " How is Labeling football a wargame (or arguing that football is NOT a wargame) useful for a football coach? How does worrying about paradoxical logic change what a coach does anymore Is it your assertion that a coach who does not recognize this, or does not value the comparison fails to run counters, fakes, or utilize deception on the football field? No animosity or malice intended, I just don't think many of the coaches here would disagree that football utilizes deception, and warfare utilizes decption. So... Yes? How is constantly arguing an non-point (tedseay does not care if you don't agree with his analogy and neither do many others) for no other reason than you don't like it constructive to anyone? If you disagree, skip the thread. Some of us are very interested in where this conversation in going and the constant sarcastic interruptions are childish and annoying.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 28, 2017 16:25:30 GMT -6
There's a lot of similarities between running a successful beauty pageant too. Management of people, personalities, getting people to accept and strive in a certain role, etc. I don't see a lot of football coaches falling all over themselves to compare themselves to beauty pageant directors. Was rereading this old thread, and I can't believe I missed this gem. larrymoe this might be on of the best posts of all time on Huey.
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 28, 2017 21:12:48 GMT -6
Sometimes, it takes time for my awesome to sink in...
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Post by CS on Jul 29, 2017 5:54:32 GMT -6
There's a lot of similarities between running a successful beauty pageant too. Management of people, personalities, getting people to accept and strive in a certain role, etc. I don't see a lot of football coaches falling all over themselves to compare themselves to beauty pageant directors. Was rereading this old thread, and I can't believe I missed this gem. larrymoe this might be on of the best posts of all time on Huey. I forgot all about this one. Going back over this thread do you still not see that it was all about plugging his book?? I reread the whole thing as well and its painfully obvious to me. Also looking back I think everyone was kinda getting their panties in an uproar over the war comparison. It was a poor choice of words on Teds part but he was just talking about strategy from the beginning. And this is still the most pretentious thread on this board.
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Post by aceback76 on Jul 29, 2017 8:09:44 GMT -6
Gents: Please have a look at my new blog, which in addition to conflict theory and arms control in general, will discuss in great detail the most advanced and complex athletic war game on earth: North American (American & Canadian) football. Where the CAART Was Built: The Wild Bunch Football OffenseTed: I just finished reading Bill Walsh's Masters Thesis at San Jose St. in 1958. He has a great chapter comparing Football to Warfare! Haven't see you in 10-12 years!
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Post by aceback76 on Jul 29, 2017 8:31:15 GMT -6
Ted - along that same line (linking football to warfare), we also enjoyed "he Art of Team Coaching: How Sun Tzu would Coach Coaches".
Bill & Chris
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Post by Chris Clement on Jul 29, 2017 11:41:45 GMT -6
This is a three year old thread, Ted hasn't been around in quite some time.
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