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Post by tog on Jun 16, 2005 21:53:01 GMT -6
Yeah, yeah, the players make the coach great. Not all of us are in that situation, for whatever reason.
So, with that being so,
What kind of offense and defense do you run with less than stellar linemen?
What kind of offense and defense do you run with good linemen and little speed/skill?
What kind of offense and defense do you run with little talent at all?
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Post by Coach Huey on Jun 16, 2005 22:00:02 GMT -6
i believe in some type of option scheme or spread attack.
SPREAD -- smaller or lesser lineman my have easier time pass blocking than drive blocking. use slide or turnback protection schemes rather than big on big. incorporate simple passes, quicks, sprints, a few dropbacks, screens. get everyone involved..i.e. throw it to all of them, including the back.
OPTION -- get some double teams by the lineman to help get movement. don't have to block 'em all, let qb pitch off one of 'em. misdirectiona and concealment of ball will aid in springing guys. once again, get everyone involved....various types of options (backfield actions) while staying fairly simple up front.
regardless....get as many involved as you can. then, find the playmakers and feed 'em the ball. be sound, simple yet sophisticated, reps, reps, reps, in practice. maximize your time on the schemes you have. limit mistakes so you have greater chance of moving the ball.
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Post by tog on Jun 16, 2005 22:08:03 GMT -6
trick 'em misdirection teams gotta fit in there somewhere
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Post by Coach Huey on Jun 16, 2005 22:15:49 GMT -6
trick 'em misdirection teams gotta fit in there somewhere true, true....that's one of the main reasons the wing-t has been such a great offense for so many years. got good misdirection off of some very efficient base plays. system is sound and simple. once mastered, execution becomes a levelor of talent.
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Post by tog on Jun 16, 2005 22:17:07 GMT -6
I hate playing against that stuff. guess that is some respect right there
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fish
Junior Member
Posts: 485
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Post by fish on Jun 16, 2005 22:20:00 GMT -6
i think option fits all categories. you don't have to have talent to be taught discipline and repetition. that's what it take to run the option.
defensively, i think its more about you being a firm believer in your system rather than picking a system for the kids. if you believe the 4-3 is the best defense for all situations, then teach it to the kids and let 'em get after it.
myself, i'd run the 50. i like the fact that you got five guys on the line including a nose that bugs the hell out of every ol line coach, no matter how good you are.
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Post by Coach Huey on Jun 16, 2005 22:21:52 GMT -6
problem most "under talented" teams have is turnovers or 'getting off-station' (negative plays or penalties that push you into those down/distances not in your favor). we've had problems like that with our spread. turnover or penalty makes it harder for 'lesser' kids to overcome. got to really focus what we do towards being efficient.
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Post by tog on Jun 16, 2005 22:28:00 GMT -6
A keep on track offense can get overwhelmed more easily in my mind by superior talent though
balance is the key no matter what they do on offense I would think
fish has a point about the defense being something you just beleive in, but there has to be reasons for certain things to be more conducive to lesser talent than others
things like simplicity- that just allows the players to play full speed without having to think
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Post by Coach Huey on Jun 16, 2005 22:32:50 GMT -6
something a coach once told me....
"simple offenses are simple to stop"
while he was overstating this he meant that you have to a system (terminology if you will) that is simple to learn. plays must build off each other. learn play A then move on to play B. that is the one thing i try to keep in my offense....a simple language that can present itself to the opponent in a variety of ways. once my kids learn to speak "huey" then we start adding those compliments and variations.
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Post by tog on Jun 16, 2005 22:37:04 GMT -6
that's why I am looking at modular approaches
mixing schemes up front with different looks behind and making simple things appear to defenses much more complicated than they are
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fish
Junior Member
Posts: 485
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Post by fish on Jun 16, 2005 22:37:05 GMT -6
an offense like that (keep on track) will wear down because of the old adage speed kills. we've all seen it happen. the underdog gets all geared up and has a great first quarter or even great half, but then the mistakes or just the unfinished drives just because the other team has more talent.
tog, to me when i think of a team like that i would try to find my balance by trying to keep the other team unbalanced. the lesser talented team needs to do some things well enough to throw off the greater talent in order to execute the base offense. it may be trick plays, or attacking from different angles.
i'm sure calande will say something about the double wing when he sees this thread. i worked with a coach that played in a double wing system and he said they were horrible until that system came in. the blocking was very easy because the line worked together to create walls and the different angles coming from the wings and the motion made the other teams make mistakes on defense.
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Post by Coach Huey on Jun 16, 2005 22:43:24 GMT -6
i know the double wing is battled tested and proven. not disputing that. only faced 1 team in my career that ran it. they were less talented than we were -- but not tremendously . we played 5 times. scores were 56-0, 42-6, 35-14, 48-0, 48-13. now, by no means am i downplaying it. maybe they weren't well-trained in it. but, i didn't see it as an equalizer for them. they switched to the spread and final was 38-34.
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Post by tog on Jun 17, 2005 0:04:33 GMT -6
to me the best thing about keep on track style offenses is the ability to kill rythem (sp?)
if we went 3 and out, and the grind it out went 12 plays and then punted, we have been sitting around for a long time
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cre44
Sophomore Member
Posts: 168
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Post by cre44 on Jun 17, 2005 8:05:14 GMT -6
We are in this situation most of the time (over matched in talent). We are able to compete on offense because of our misdirection, which causes the d to play slow and second guess themselves. Not many teams in our area run the wing-t so we have an advantage there also...hard to prepare for in 3-4 days.
It's a little harder to hide this problem on defense (especially when your DL is outweighed by 80lbs). We move around a lot and disguise our coverages (multiple 50)...
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Post by phantom on Jun 18, 2005 6:31:07 GMT -6
To me, the best offense to use when you lack speed is either wing-t or a option, either veer or bone. Make those superior athletes on the opponent's defense play assignment football. Minimize mistakes, keep the clock moving, and keep your defense off the field. The problem with a passing-based spread offense, as I see it, is that you're stopping the clock if it isn't working and putting more pressure on the defense. Defensively, I believe that if you're slow you'd better be smart. To paraphrase the philosopher Dean Wormer, slow and stupid is no way to go through life.
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Post by coachdawhip on Apr 26, 2006 21:34:00 GMT -6
Wang-T, 4-3 Cover4
More Shotgun Wang-T, 4-3 Cover 4
Wang-T
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Post by groundchuck on Apr 27, 2006 7:45:42 GMT -6
Keep It Simple and Sound
Offense: Option and misdirection/deception or run spread. I think the risk with option and spread is you have to have a few kids who can pull it off, and with undertalented kids those guys may not be there. I think you can run deception based offense with lesser talented kids because even dead guys can fake (see Weekend at Bernie's). There was talk about turnovers and getting off station and I totally agree because that has been our issue big time. If we can get into 3rd and short we can convert but running option we get that bad pitch, or a penalty and now are off schedule we tend to be screwed. Spread is a good way to go too. I know lots of coaches that haev "fixed" programs by running the spread. If you have a QB and some kids who can run and catch then why not? You can incorporate the jet stuff and some simple option.
Defense: Use the scheme you know best because if you don't the offense will come up with some way to exploit you and you won't have the X and O knowledge of the scheme to fix it.
Let me pose this question: How do you achieve balance when you don't have the personnel to be balanced? What if trying to be balanced is actually detramental to your offense. Example: Try to pass but get sacked or throw a pick...no you are off schedule or turned it over. If you just ran it you might get 3-3-3 and then have a shot at going for it on 4th down. Not that I advocate this all the time but....for debate sake.
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Post by coachcalande on Apr 27, 2006 8:03:52 GMT -6
HERES AN IDEA I HAD ...
put in 12-15 plays...run them to perfection. package the plays in 3-4 series. no grab bagging.
put in 2 coverages and run an attacking disruptive defense, make no alignment or coverage errors and tackle as well as anyone in the country...
limit time on the practice field and get the kids in the weight room!...ever consider just what you might accomplish by being simple and sound and strong.
some suggestions...
evaluate your talent and choose the offense that fits what they can do best...
ie, if you have a fast/quick/smart point guard kid that can also throw alittle maybe option is the way to go?
if you are thick and stocky but slow maybe a smashmouth single wing or double wing will do the trick
if you have one feature back maybe the wing-t (put him at fb) is the best choice?
if all of your kids are cat quick smurfs but lack strength, the run and shoot might be the thing...
but whatever you do, limit it and be the best at it.
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Post by meyerspread on Apr 30, 2006 17:32:07 GMT -6
Huey got it right... Spread...and Option... Meyer style
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Post by jimbohale on Apr 30, 2006 20:09:00 GMT -6
I'm no expert...actually still a newbie when talking Xs and Os, but for offense I like the Triple Option for the reasons stated above (forcing the D to play assignment football, etc.)
Defensively, one of the biggest things I notice with less than talented defenses is that they give up BIG plays often. Therefore, I like the 3-3 stack because it gives you an extra guy back there to lessen the chance of a big play happening.
Just my thoughts.
Coach Hale
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Post by runtheball86 on Apr 30, 2006 20:55:21 GMT -6
Run the Double Wing ... great offense AND defense (keeps the other offense off the field)
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Post by jhanawa on Apr 30, 2006 21:13:30 GMT -6
I think that Huey's idea of spread/option/quick passing/screens is the ticket, I'd also want to mix in some misdirection with it by using jets/motions to keep people off balance. With a simple core of base blocking schemes (zone, trap, ct trey, veer, power) you can run a whole lotta looks. The key to it is organization and communication. This is the foundation of our offense, we are completely interchangable from under center and gun.
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Post by coachveer on May 1, 2006 5:26:03 GMT -6
Put your 3 fastest kids and QB, RB, and SE. Then run any offense were the OL can dbl or triple the inside down Lineman and read/trap the last man on the los. If you want to run it out one more gap add a wing and dbl or triple the DE and read/trap the next man out.
Over the past few years our OL was terrible. If a play called for our OT to "base" or "hook" and 5 or my TE to "base" or "hook" a 9 then we didn't run it. We did a lot of "arc" blocking with the TE. We wanted DE/OLB to turn their shoulders when we arc'ed released and run veer or a kick out scheme underneath him. This is also why we run rocket. We don't have to block anyone from the C gap defender down. And all my TE had to do is run with the 9 and we have the edge.
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homerj
Freshmen Member
Posts: 83
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Post by homerj on May 3, 2006 7:28:28 GMT -6
I think it's something you might need to do personnel-wise. Last year, we had a pretty good OL, but were slow in the backfield. We would get in some spread formations (spread the def. out) and run the ball inside. People started figuring that out and kept most people in the box b/c we couldn't pass too well. Because of that we started running the Fly Sweep out of gun to attack the edges, this pulled people out of the box again, so our inside run game opened back up. Next season I see us just the opposite. We won't be great up front but we'll have more speed than normal, so I see more two back sets to keep people in the box, and using our speed via the Fly Sweep to get to the edges and get around defenses.
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Post by superpower on May 3, 2006 7:40:06 GMT -6
There are lots of good ideas here for what to do on offense without dominant players. We can all make good arguments for our systems. I have had success moving the ball, eating the clock, and even scoring points with the double wing in spite of limited size, speed, and talent. However, I find defense to be a much greater challenge when a team lacks dominant players. I think we can hide a kid on offense, but there is no where to hide a kid on defense. For that reason, I think ball control is vital. When I lack dominant players, I want to hold the ball as long as possible and limit the opportunities for the opponent to put up points.
Defensively I think a gap control system is best if you don't have talent...just my opinion.
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Post by CoachBrink on May 3, 2006 21:04:08 GMT -6
Option and Quick Passing Game--Force secondary to defend the run and LBs to help in the passing game.
Multiple Defense--Force offense to adjust to you
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Post by realdawg on May 4, 2006 5:49:55 GMT -6
I agree with everyone that option and spread tend to be the way to go. (Noone and I mean noone in NC runs the double wing, so I have never seen it in action nor do I have any idea what it is all about) I also agree with with phantom that the option takes time off the clock and helps keep your defense off the field while moving the football, which is very important against a superior team.
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Post by tog on May 4, 2006 5:54:07 GMT -6
realdawg, the DW guys will say those are some of the main reasons they run the DW
I can see their point too you aren't going to kill more clock with anything more than the DW
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Post by superpower on May 4, 2006 5:58:45 GMT -6
Right on, Tog!
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Post by blb on May 5, 2006 6:39:51 GMT -6
This a great thread - interesting topic and some really good ideas expressed.
Being a Veer guy, I believe in having an offense that is simple to execute but difficult to defend. As Holtz said, "The option forces the defense to have to out-execute you, not just out-personnel you."
At my previous school we played a team that had been bad for several years, basically a passing team on offense. They got a new coach who installed the Double Wing. After a rough initial season, they have had winning seasons every year and been to the playoffs the last four.
I can see where the DW would be a good offense for schools with low numbers (not that it wouldn't work at big schools with talent, too) and not just because of its uniqueness.
The QB does not have to be as athletic as an option guy or have as big an arm as in the spread. The linemen all do similar techniques so depth would not be as big a problem. RBs could play either wing, whereas a FB and TB in the 'I', for example, are not always interchangeable.
And, you do not have to have big burners at WR. When I look at the Spread, I'm lucky if I have two kids a year who can run and catch, much less three, four or five.
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