|
|
Post by 19delta on Apr 26, 2014 18:28:17 GMT -6
Watching the movie right now. Question...given what we now know about concussions and traumatic head injuries, would Cap Rooney (Dennis Quaid) or Shark LaVey (Lawrence Taylor) still be alive?
|
|
|
|
Post by Chris Clement on Apr 26, 2014 18:33:12 GMT -6
Alive? Yes. It's nigh-impossible to predict long-term effects of brain injuries, but death in 15 years sounds like an extreme case.
|
|
|
|
Post by groundchuck on Apr 26, 2014 19:19:30 GMT -6
Sharks OC Nick Crozier should've been running the zone read with Steamin' Willie Beamon.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachklee on Apr 27, 2014 6:40:47 GMT -6
Alive? Yes. It's nigh-impossible to predict long-term effects of brain injuries, but death in 15 years sounds like an extreme case. "nigh"? I realize it is the same as saying "near", but quite the Canadian word... Anyways, based on all of the research I have seen or heard (and it isn't really that much), the question with brain injuries seems to be "what kind of quality of life will the person have 10-15 years later?" Most of the guys that have been publicized as dying extremely early have died from some form of suicide. Now the root cause of said suicide was typically some form of early on-set dementia, chronic headaches and depression all of which are likely linked to long-term brain effects. However, as someone mentioned, the depression in particular could just as likely be linked to a realization that the thing a guy has done for 20+ years since age 8 or whatever is over, or the depression is also linked to various forms of substance abuse. I guess the bottom line is that in my opinion, many of the publicized "deaths" are in no way shape or form directly related to long-term effects of brain injuries. |
|
|
|
Post by olcoach53 on Apr 27, 2014 7:23:59 GMT -6
Shark probably would have gotten in some trouble with cocaine and soliciting sex from a minor among other things. He also might have appeared in an Adam Sandler movie...
|
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Apr 27, 2014 8:46:06 GMT -6
All of this is overblown by the media.
Just think of all the college and NFL coaches. Most of them played college and NFL before we had concussion awareness and they are all fine. Think of all the coaches on this board, think of your uncles, dad, and grandfathers who played football.
Just think how the media would be reacting if former Tennessee women's coach Pat Summit had played football. There is no doubt that her dementia would be ridiculously overblown and football would be blamed.
Concussions are serious. We need to treat them as such. But with our new protocols, helmets, and tackling technique, football is much safer than the media is portraying.
|
|
|
|
Post by s73 on Apr 27, 2014 13:25:28 GMT -6
All of this is overblown by the media. Just think of all the college and NFL coaches. Most of them played college and NFL before we had concussion awareness and they are all fine. Think of all the coaches on this board, think of your uncles, dad, and grandfathers who played football. Just think how the media would be reacting if former Tennessee women's coach Pat Summit had played football. There is no doubt that her dementia would be ridiculously overblown and football would be blamed. Concussions are serious. We need to treat them as such. But with our new protocols, helmets, and tackling technique, football is much safer than the media is portraying. All great points. I would also like to add that it seems as though very few of these cases of guys taking their own lives "due to traumatic brain injuries" seems to occur during their careers but rather afterwards. Not saying that getting hit in the head helps or isn't serious, but personally I feel that in SOME CASES these guys taking their own lives may have more to do w/ the fact these guys are no longer a part of the spotlight at the age of 35 years old. Secondly, why are we not seeing the same issues with boxers? First off Ali has Parkinson's which has never been proven to be connected to physical trauma (MIchael J Fox has same illness) so let's get that out of the way. What about Tyson, Holyfield, Sugar Ray, Hagler, Duran. All of these dudes had LONG careers where you know they had to have had multiple concussions, yet I don't hear stories about them killing themselves. What about George Foreman going through wars in the 70's and then resuming his career again in the 90's and winning a title at the age of 46? Like Silky said, their's more evidence in our older relatives that football is a relatively safe sport than their is evidence that it is not. JMO of course. |
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Apr 27, 2014 14:01:20 GMT -6
All of this is overblown by the media. Just think of all the college and NFL coaches. Most of them played college and NFL before we had concussion awareness and they are all fine. Think of all the coaches on this board, think of your uncles, dad, and grandfathers who played football. Just think how the media would be reacting if former Tennessee women's coach Pat Summit had played football. There is no doubt that her dementia would be ridiculously overblown and football would be blamed. Concussions are serious. We need to treat them as such. But with our new protocols, helmets, and tackling technique, football is much safer than the media is portraying. All great points. I would also like to add that it seems as though very few of these cases of guys taking their own lives "due to traumatic brain injuries" seems to occur during their careers but rather afterwards. Not saying that getting hit in the head helps or isn't serious, but personally I feel that in SOME CASES these guys taking their own lives may have more to do w/ the fact these guys are no longer a part of the spotlight at the age of 35 years old. Secondly, why are we not seeing the same issues with boxers? First off Ali has Parkinson's which has never been proven to be connected to physical trauma (MIchael J Fox has same illness) so let's get that out of the way. What about Tyson, Holyfield, Sugar Ray, Hagler, Duran. All of these dudes had LONG careers where you know they had to have had multiple concussions, yet I don't hear stories about them killing themselves. What about George Foreman going through wars in the 70's and then resuming his career again in the 90's and winning a title at the age of 46? Like Silky said, their's more evidence in our older relatives that football is a relatively safe sport than their is evidence that it is not. JMO of course. I started the thread basically as a joke and because I was about halfway through a bottle of Jim Beam. But to say, "why are we not seeing the same issues with boxers" ignores basic facts. Hell, it is so common for boxers to be effed up after their career that there is a name for it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pugilistic_dementiaHolyfield is still relatively young and he is already slurring his speech. Would not be surprised if he ends up much worse. Also, I wouldn't be referencing Mike Tyson as an example of clean mental health!  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 14:48:03 GMT -6
As exaggerated as the in-game action scenes are, this is actually one of my all-time favorite football movies!
|
|
|
|
Post by coachphillip on Apr 27, 2014 14:52:48 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by mariner42 on Apr 27, 2014 14:56:10 GMT -6
I actually love the scene with LT and Foxx in the steam room where LT is preaching/reflecting on his career. I think that's easily the finest part of the film and one of the best football movies scenes out there.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachphillip on Apr 27, 2014 15:16:21 GMT -6
"Sure, you can lead, kid. But, will anybody follow?" "Hey Cap. How old are you again?"
|
|
|
|
Post by s73 on Apr 27, 2014 15:32:42 GMT -6
All great points. I would also like to add that it seems as though very few of these cases of guys taking their own lives "due to traumatic brain injuries" seems to occur during their careers but rather afterwards. Not saying that getting hit in the head helps or isn't serious, but personally I feel that in SOME CASES these guys taking their own lives may have more to do w/ the fact these guys are no longer a part of the spotlight at the age of 35 years old. Secondly, why are we not seeing the same issues with boxers? First off Ali has Parkinson's which has never been proven to be connected to physical trauma (MIchael J Fox has same illness) so let's get that out of the way. What about Tyson, Holyfield, Sugar Ray, Hagler, Duran. All of these dudes had LONG careers where you know they had to have had multiple concussions, yet I don't hear stories about them killing themselves. What about George Foreman going through wars in the 70's and then resuming his career again in the 90's and winning a title at the age of 46? Like Silky said, their's more evidence in our older relatives that football is a relatively safe sport than their is evidence that it is not. JMO of course. I started the thread basically as a joke and because I was about halfway through a bottle of Jim Beam. But to say, "why are we not seeing the same issues with boxers" ignores basic facts. Hell, it is so common for boxers to be effed up after their career that there is a name for it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pugilistic_dementiaHolyfield is still relatively young and he is already slurring his speech. Would not be surprised if he ends up much worse. Also, I wouldn't be referencing Mike Tyson as an example of clean mental health! Many good points. However, Tyson was crazy before his career. Holyfield has always spoken poorly, just go on you tube and listen to him talk. Foreman has never been sharper, bigger in his 40's -50's and 60's then he ever was in his 20's. I got 3 words for you "George Foreman Grill". I would say the old noggin is working pretty well. Sugar Ray and Roy Jones are all pretty eloquent speakers & RJ even helps w/ Big George to broadcast fights. Likewise, like you said their are many boxers who are a mess, some from their careers, some b/c they were always a mess. The main point I want to make is this: I have a friend who runs marathons and he is 50. If I run a couple of miles my feet and knees are SCREAMING at me. I'm only 43. My back hurts the next morning from the pounding. Running is probably not a great source of exercise for me b/c for some reason my joints don't respond well to it. For my friend the benefits are undeniable. I view FB and even boxing the same way. Some guys can play FB for decades (Brett Favre) with seemingly no issues. Others have head issues w/ many fewer hits. Bottom line: they're risks and benefits in multiple sports. I don't think FB should be singled out like it is. |
|
jmg999
Junior Member
Posts: 263
|
Post by jmg999 on Apr 27, 2014 18:03:23 GMT -6
There's a lot of good research available in this area these days, if you care to look it up. More and more, it's beginning to center not on concussions received from a single hit but rather on the increased likelihood of sustaining peripheral symptoms later in life.
|
|
|
|
Post by s73 on Apr 27, 2014 20:25:30 GMT -6
There's a lot of good research available in this area these days, if you care to look it up. More and more, it's beginning to center not on concussions received from a single hit but rather on the increased likelihood of sustaining peripheral symptoms later in life. I understand and have read much of the research and even spent several hours at a conference listening to a specialist discuss this very thing. My concern is that we have many athletes play contact sports for years with seemingly no consequences and others playing contact sports for the same length of time w/ multiple symptoms. So my question is: Is it the sport or is it the noggin? Why can some guys handle it and others can't? It's my belief that much more research needs to be done & it needs to be centered around ALL contact sports before we start to declare some more dangerous than the rest. Again, JMO. |
|
|
|
Post by coachks on Apr 27, 2014 21:09:26 GMT -6
So much of this research is based on narratives. Former football players commit suicide, so do a large amount of non-football players. In fact, NFL'ers have a suicide rate at about 25% of the general population (As in, the rate of NFL suicides is significantly lower than the general population). Former football players suffer dementia, so do plenty of individuals who have never played a down. In fact, based on a recent article posted (It was on SI.com) NFL'ers do not suffer from CTE at a rate significantly different from the general population.
In fact, a lot of what it really boils down to is they examined the brain of former players - Found differences and declared football to be the cause of serious brain injuries later in life. This supports the narrative of some former players and is a sensational story that probably has a root in truth. However, to point, I have not read a single study that compares the rate of dementia (and associated issues) between that of former players at different levels (NFL, NCAA, High School) with that of the general population. If anybody has a that data available I would like to read it.
Concussions are a separate issue - There is a litany of scientific data regarding the effects of "2nd concussion" syndrome and similar complications that can arise - especially for young players.
|
|
jmg999
Junior Member
Posts: 263
|
Post by jmg999 on Apr 27, 2014 21:40:27 GMT -6
There was a study presented at the Alzheimer's Association conference a few years back (I can't remember the name of the paper), which found evidence that surveyed US football players who'd suffered a sports-related brain injury were significantly more likely (at an almost 3:1 rate) to experience signs of dementia by about 61 years of age. Another study presented at the same conference found similarly significant results among elderly veterans, who'd suffered a traumatic brain injury. They were more than twice as likely to suffer from dementia by age 55 than a veteran, who'd not suffered a traumatic brain injury. The study of elderly veterans was rather wide-ranging, too. They compared the medical records of almost 300,000 veterans, which is a rather sizable sample.
As for rates of suicide, I've never heard that rates of NFL'ers outnumber those of the general population. There was a study, however, looking at the increased rates of suicide among soldiers, who had suffered repeated brain injuries. Yet, as I'd referenced in my earlier post, peripheral symptoms of traumatic brain injury, such as major depressive disorder and PTSD, can certainly lead to suicide.
|
|
|
|
Post by s73 on Apr 28, 2014 5:45:26 GMT -6
There was a study presented at the Alzheimer's Association conference a few years back (I can't remember the name of the paper), which found evidence that surveyed US football players who'd suffered a sports-related brain injury were significantly more likely (at an almost 3:1 rate) to experience signs of dementia by about 61 years of age. Another study presented at the same conference found similarly significant results among elderly veterans, who'd suffered a traumatic brain injury. They were more than twice as likely to suffer from dementia by age 55 than a veteran, who'd not suffered a traumatic brain injury. The study of elderly veterans was rather wide-ranging, too. They compared the medical records of almost 300,000 veterans, which is a rather sizable sample. As for rates of suicide, I've never heard that rates of NFL'ers outnumber those of the general population. There was a study, however, looking at the increased rates of suicide among soldiers, who had suffered repeated brain injuries. Yet, as I'd referenced in my earlier post, peripheral symptoms of traumatic brain injury, such as major depressive disorder and PTSD, can certainly lead to suicide. Coach, not calling you into question, but I do have an issue w/ some of this study that you've cited. I personally have A LOT OF TROUBLE following a SURVEY of US football players. First off, where are they finding these "60 something" football guys to survey in the first place? Secondly, are their really that many 60 something FB guys out their taking this brain injury survey to provide a large enough sample to make it reliable? Sorry coach, not trying to be a jerk, but something smells a little fishy here. The other issue I have with this study is you cited soldiers w/ repeated brain injuries. Not so sure their are many of those out their either. I have a bit of military history in my family and experience tells me that most soldiers who get a brain injury are usually taken out of the line of duty. Again, I just find it difficult to believe their is a huge sampling of these guys out there as to make the sample reliable. I have a concern that some of these medical professionals may be more concerned w/ making a name for themselves than actually being completely accurate. I mean, it would be a pretty big deal to be introduced at a lecture as "the guy" who changed American football. Again, JMO. |
|
|
|
Post by wingtol on Apr 28, 2014 6:07:28 GMT -6
Forget head injuries, how is the guy from the Dallas Knights who's eye popped out of his head making a tackle!?!?!?
|
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Apr 28, 2014 7:21:00 GMT -6
for what its worth.....Cap Rooney had a spinal issue, not head trauma.  "He's {censored} up; they're all {censored} up"I love that movie, though. Jamie Williams was the one who originally wrote the script and much of that was true throughout his playing days in the 80s. If you really want a slap in the football face, watch "Draft Day". |
|
|
|
Post by larrymoe on Apr 28, 2014 8:34:05 GMT -6
Why is it no one ever figures in all the other crap these guys do when investigating brain problems?
Jim McMahon's messed up. Must be football!
How about the fact he was a raging alcoholic and party boy too? No one ever considers the drugs, pain killers, alcohol or steroids a lot of these guys did. What if the sport isn't damaging, but when combined with the rest it's an issue?
|
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Apr 28, 2014 8:38:15 GMT -6
There was a study presented at the Alzheimer's Association conference a few years back (I can't remember the name of the paper), which found evidence that surveyed US football players who'd suffered a sports-related brain injury were significantly more likely (at an almost 3:1 rate) to experience signs of dementia by about 61 years of age. Another study presented at the same conference found similarly significant results among elderly veterans, who'd suffered a traumatic brain injury. They were more than twice as likely to suffer from dementia by age 55 than a veteran, who'd not suffered a traumatic brain injury. The study of elderly veterans was rather wide-ranging, too. They compared the medical records of almost 300,000 veterans, which is a rather sizable sample. As for rates of suicide, I've never heard that rates of NFL'ers outnumber those of the general population. There was a study, however, looking at the increased rates of suicide among soldiers, who had suffered repeated brain injuries. Yet, as I'd referenced in my earlier post, peripheral symptoms of traumatic brain injury, such as major depressive disorder and PTSD, can certainly lead to suicide. Coach, not calling you into question, but I do have an issue w/ some of this study that you've cited. I personally have A LOT OF TROUBLE following a SURVEY of US football players. First off, where are they finding these "60 something" football guys to survey in the first place? Secondly, are their really that many 60 something FB guys out their taking this brain injury survey to provide a large enough sample to make it reliable? Sorry coach, not trying to be a jerk, but something smells a little fishy here. Well.. there's a big enough sample pool but who has been the actual sample? Who did they ask? Did they ask guys who played at all levels-HS only; small college; D,1; NFL- or just NFL veterans? I'd love to see the survey. |
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Apr 28, 2014 8:41:11 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by blb on Apr 28, 2014 8:41:30 GMT -6
Why is it no one ever figures in all the other crap these guys do when investigating brain problems? Jim McMahon's messed up. Must be football! How about the fact he was a raging alcoholic and party boy too? No one ever considers the drugs, pain killers, alcohol or steroids a lot of these guys did. What if the sport isn't damaging, but when combined with the rest it's an issue?
In the interview (ESPN?) that aired last Fall, the highlight clips showed McMahon head-butting teammates before a game to fire them up and after a big play for congratulations.
|
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Apr 28, 2014 10:44:32 GMT -6
We all have dementia so we forgot that we discussed it already. |
|
|
|
Post by larrymoe on Apr 28, 2014 11:19:06 GMT -6
I just think it's a little early to be saying anything definitive about it yet. We could very well end up looking as ridiculous as people who claimed to know everything about HIV or AIDS in 1988 do today. |
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Apr 28, 2014 11:37:37 GMT -6
I just think it's a little early to be saying anything definitive about it yet. We could very well end up looking as ridiculous as people who claimed to know everything about HIV or AIDS in 1988 do today. so don't use a toilet seat after a monkey! |
|
|
|
Post by larrymoe on Apr 28, 2014 12:56:59 GMT -6
Comradery. I just can't believe that this is an issue now if it hasn't been one before. Maybe it has been an unreported issue in generations of football players from bygone eras and we just don't know it. I have a hard time believing that the game has changed that much. Especially given the safety measures that are in today's game when compared to previous eras. |
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Apr 28, 2014 13:17:54 GMT -6
Comradery. I just can't believe that this is an issue now if it hasn't been one before. Maybe it has been an unreported issue in generations of football players from bygone eras and we just don't know it. I have a hard time believing that the game has changed that much. Especially given the safety measures that are in today's game when compared to previous eras. I've been looking at it on and off and very informally since this became an issue. It's far from scientific or comprehensive but it doesn't seem that health issues became a a seemingly widespread problem until we get to players that played from the '70's on. If that's true-and that's a big if- what changed? 1. Players got bigger. 2. Drugs-PED's and recreational- became more widespread. 3. Tackling by ramming with the top of the head became more widespread. Some social changes may have have added to the perception that health issues among ex-players are prevalent: 1. More media attention. That's the bad news-maybe the issues have been there all along but without 24/7 sports media nobody noticed. 2. Changing perception about aging. Years ago, memory loss wasn't consider unusual in aging people. Now, "60 is the new 40". Well, it isn't. |
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Apr 28, 2014 13:19:58 GMT -6
Comradery. I just can't believe that this is an issue now if it hasn't been one before. Maybe it has been an unreported issue in generations of football players from bygone eras and we just don't know it. I have a hard time believing that the game has changed that much. Especially given the safety measures that are in today's game when compared to previous eras. This is my point exactly!!! Also, future generations should have even less occurrences due to our awareness, safer techniques, and better helmets. |
|
