biggus3
Sophomore Member
Posts: 178 
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Post by biggus3 on Apr 22, 2014 20:49:07 GMT -6
A little background... My HC was brought in a few years ago to his alma mater after a few successful coaching stints on the east coast. Many of the guys on the staff are coaches that he played for and have been on the staff for 20 yrs+. We literally have 27 paid coaches 9-12 in the program. He kept all of them and added myself and another guy to coach LBs and d line/ s&c respectively. The team has been lousy to mediocre with the exception of a state championship almost 20 years ago.
I feel the HC was generally well accepted by the "old guys" however, the Dline coach and myself walked around as outcasts for 2 years despite NUMEROUS attempts to reach out to them. We are quite a bit younger, so it may be just a generational thing.
However, these guys are nowhere to found from the second they pick up their stipend at the end of the season to the start of august camp. We literally had to bribe them to come to the team camps, and pay them handsomely to go away to a camp a local university. When the HC said the following year that the money would no longer be there for budget reasons, suddenly they were unavailable except for a couple others that will show up in a crisis. The HC and I do all game planning, Hudl type stuff for the staff and kids. The D line coach and I are the strength and conditioning program, The head coach and I do all of the fundraising via corporate sponsorship. The 3 of us contribute to all the dirty work that goes on in the offseason.
Now that I am done whining about who does what... Does anyone have any experience in fixing this type of situation? the HC and I have tried setting up coaches "get aways," fishing trips, events, you name it to get to know each other better, but we can never get them to materialize. From their perspective, I can see why they might get angry about a couple young bucks running roughshod over everything, however they are never around to give any input and stuff needs to get done.
They are effective at coaching their respective area of expertise for the most part, and I don't have any animosity towards them as people, but I also have half a mind to call them a bunch of dead beats and tell them off. The part that bothers me is that the kids even notice this and it ends up reflecting poorly on the whole staff. They just seem to have this mentality that "we have paid our dues" and they hang their hat on that championship team from 20 years ago. If we had 27 coaches on board, I can't imagine what our program would accomplish.
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Post by mariner42 on Apr 22, 2014 20:56:02 GMT -6
The team has been lousy to mediocre with the exception of a state championship almost 20 years ago. Gonna disagree, given your previous statement. Either way, you're gonna have a hard time getting old coaches to change their ways. I'm a bit of a "step up or step off" kinda guy, so my instinct is to lay it out for them that doing X, Y, and Z are part of their coaching position and failure to adhere to that means they are no longer coaches (or varsity coaches, at least). This will cost you several of them and create resentment in a few, but it'll get results from some. You could try a more positive approach, but I don't know what that is. |
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biggus3
Sophomore Member
Posts: 178
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Post by biggus3 on Apr 22, 2014 21:25:58 GMT -6
I am with you. If it was me, and I had inherited a staff with such a lousy track record, many would be on the chopping block before I walked in the building. It is the weirdest thing. When you talk to them, they know their stuff. However, It is like they won't put in the extra effort it takes to be successful.
I don't know that they have the passion for the game anymore to put in the extra work it takes to be a championship team. When you have coached in our school district for as long as they have you literally can't afford to quit because of the way the coaching contract is structured. I feel bad for the HC and respect his decision to keep them on, because how do you fire a nice guy that coached you, that has been in the program for 20/30 years, and to top it off, he still works in the building where you have to see them everyday. You would end up alienating a bunch of alumni. Of whom we are heavily dependent on to fund our team. In our conference, money ends up attracting a lot of kids because everyone has it, and whatever program has the most bells and whistles gets those kids due to open enrollment. It stinks to have ride out until retirement "the worst coaching staff in America"(HC's words not mine) and sacrifice your principles for political reasons.
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Post by 90rocket on Apr 22, 2014 21:46:55 GMT -6
Can he restructure coaching roles? How about moving one of you guys to a coordinator position? I realize that you said these guys are knowledgable, but the kids will have faith in the guys who put in the time.
I currently do every job that you 3 do, albeit at a much smaller school with less pressure to win. I have a family member who is the DC and is my top paid assistant. However, if a new young buck comes in and is willing to put the time in that I do in the offseason I will have no problem adjusting my staff as I see fit.
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biggus3
Sophomore Member
Posts: 178
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Post by biggus3 on Apr 22, 2014 23:31:38 GMT -6
He could do that. I am sure in the future that is what he has planned. I feel that is what caused some of the rift in the first place, because some guys with a lot of experience got "demoted" to make room for us as unproven commodities (yet best buds with the HC) at LB and D line. I had some experience at a smaller school coming in however, and made a couple slightly above average athletes kids into D1 walk on types, which I feel is why my coach hired me in the first place. He just wanted a young energetic defensive staff.
Realistically, I am still a couple years off of being a DC. I am rock solid on LB,D line technique, in the weight room as well as willing to put in the time. I am sketchy on secondary technique, and have a lot to learn. I wouldn't really feel comfortable stepping in if need be and coaching those positions. I also need to learn more about what offenses are trying to accomplish big picture wise as far as how they string their plays together, which is why I frequent this site to begin with. I called the JV defense last year, and we got worked in the beginning of the year simply because we were out coached. I got it together towards the end of the season.
The D-line coach (who will readily admit this) is your typical meathead D line strength coach guru guy whose solution to everything is more line stunts and upping the level of violence you play with. So he is a ways off as well.
bottom line is, I am tired of working my butt off and watching a bunch good kids pay the price for a bunch of coaches who are more interested in collecting a pretty fat pay check for the bare minimum. If its not feasible to can these guys, I just want to fix it because our conference is super competitive. any team could win it at any time if they do the little things right, and unfortunately our team is trending in the wrong direction.
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 23, 2014 7:04:22 GMT -6
I wouldn't go on any "getaways" either. You don't have to be best friends to coach together.
Your desire to be their friend is an entirely separate issue from them not performing their jobs.
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Post by rsmith627 on Apr 23, 2014 7:21:16 GMT -6
We are going into our third year as a staff together at this school, and we inherited the same type of thing. This year, we fired half of our staff and replaced them.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2014 8:38:05 GMT -6
I can't get past the 27 paid coaches?  How does anyone manage that? |
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Post by CS on Apr 23, 2014 8:51:39 GMT -6
I'm going to play devils advocate but are you saying that they won't work unless they're being paid? If they are getting close to retirement and they aren't being paid to be their you can't do much.
I realize that doing things that you aren't paid to do is part of the business but you can't fire a coach for that(at least you can't in my state). Have they directly said "no" to anything the HC has asked? Does the HC have no balls? There has to be more to the situation than what you are telling us.
How does the HC interact with them? As a leader or a scared former player?
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 23, 2014 8:58:18 GMT -6
I am a bit confused here as well. After reading the original post, I came away with a few things (mentioned above) :
1) 27 paid coaches for grades 9-12.
2) After the first year, many coaches are no longer being paid.
3) Those guys not being paid, are no longer very involved.
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Post by wingtol on Apr 23, 2014 9:20:56 GMT -6
I would say 27 coaches is way to many. No way are you gonna get buy in from all 27. It seems absurd to have that many coaches to me no matter the size of your program. That's where I would start, cut the staff in half!
Also are these guys invited/told/expected to do the stuff you say only a few coaches are doing? Do you have staff meetings for game planning or do you just go off and do it with a few select guys? Maybe some guys don't feel included and there for see no need to contribute. If a few guys are doing every thing and others aren't assigned roles then why would they put in the extra time.
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Post by coachphillip on Apr 23, 2014 9:21:33 GMT -6
Might be their perspective: If we're no longer getting paid, we're no longer professionals.
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Post by brophy on Apr 23, 2014 10:03:52 GMT -6
you put everyone up on yearly stipends, to be reviewed after each season. Of course, if your HC has no control over who his coaches are (principal), then there is nothing you can do. Sometimes you can do more with less. First of all, for your situation, are the coaching contracts tied to their teaching contract? It will be the HC working with the principal/AD to get rid of the dead weight.
These are employees. Get rid of those that aren't motivated and it will fix itself.
One place I was at, the HC was forced to keep old dogs on the staff. When he had the ability/influence to get rid of them...he did. Another place I was at, the HC did have control and went about it a softer method. He had evaluations after each season and the assistants had to justify what they brought to the program. Also, he set staff expectations for the off-season, so if you weren't doing x,y,z then it showed that you didn't follow through...given good cause to get rid of your contract (this place had stipends submitted in August, paid at the end of the season, and didn't carry over to the off-season). |
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Post by bigm0073 on Apr 23, 2014 10:05:34 GMT -6
Find coaches strengths and cater to them. Not every coach is a weight room guy.. Not every coach is an x and o guy.. Not every coach wants to be a coordinator or head coach.. Not every coach wants to fundraiser.. We have 14 coaches on our staff and all of them have an important role. Some are more organized and handle administrative stuff well.. Others are very good x and o guys but do not do the weight room well.. Others are weight room guys but not football strong guys.. I have trice to find what they are good at and enjoy.. From there lean on them in those areas.
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Post by coach2013 on Apr 23, 2014 10:07:45 GMT -6
Basically in my experience coaching comes down to:
wanting, not willing to
Most likely there are a number of coaches in that lot that do not want to do anything other than show up with a whistle and clip board and be around the game on Friday nights.
Sometimes coaches are not available to do all of the things that have to be done, however rarely does anyone offer to do stuff on their own time "coach I cant do weight room at 3pm but I could do it from 6-8 pm"
Id fall over if I heard that.
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Post by fantom on Apr 23, 2014 10:19:50 GMT -6
Might be their perspective: If we're no longer getting paid, we're no longer professionals. Yeah, in my experience when you stop paying guys it tends to make them surly. Cut my pay and I really won't be interested in going fishing with you. |
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Post by spos21ram on Apr 23, 2014 10:36:06 GMT -6
I may have interpreted this wrong, but when he said "the school cut the budget and stopped paying for them", I think he meant stopped paying their fair to clinics, camps, etc. Not their coaching stipend.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using proboards
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Post by fantom on Apr 23, 2014 10:48:20 GMT -6
I may have interpreted this wrong, but when he said "the school cut the budget and stopped paying for them", I think he meant stopped paying their fair to clinics, camps, etc. Not their coaching stipend. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using proboards In effect it's the same thing. If you expect me to attend these functions and I have to pay that's taking money out of my pocket. |
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 23, 2014 11:22:39 GMT -6
Listen, I do way more than my stipend requires of me, but I'm still not going on some retreat with you. That has absolutely nothing to do with coaching.
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Post by fantom on Apr 23, 2014 11:29:11 GMT -6
Listen, I do way more than my stipend requires of me, but I'm still not going on some retreat with you. That has absolutely nothing to do with coaching. I'm with you on that and I also think that staffs socializing is overrated. I'm 60 years old. I'm not going out and hanging out with the 20-somethings on our staff. We like each other and get along great but after games they go to hip-hop clubs and I go home. |
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 23, 2014 11:45:02 GMT -6
Listen, I do way more than my stipend requires of me, but I'm still not going on some retreat with you. That has absolutely nothing to do with coaching. I'm with you on that and I also think that staffs socializing is overrated. I'm 60 years old. I'm not going out and hanging out with the 20-somethings on our staff. We like each other and get along great but after games they go to hip-hop clubs and I go home. I'm pretty close with my staff, mostly because we're all pretty much similar ages and in the same points of life- mid 30s to mid 20s, young families, etc. Still we don't do "retreats". We go to clinics. We may go to a college game every now and then. But we don't do anything to purposefully "bond". I worked on a staff that "required" a retreat once. I went once just to see what it was like. Stupidest idea I've ever seen in my life. |
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Post by georgefred86 on Apr 23, 2014 12:35:37 GMT -6
After reading through a number of these type posts over the years ... this is just a reminder to me of how lucky I am to be able to coach with a bunch of friends that love kids and love the game as much as I do. Can't see putting this much time into this deal and having it any other way.
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Post by wingtol on Apr 23, 2014 12:37:03 GMT -6
He could do that. I am sure in the future that is what he has planned. I feel that is what caused some of the rift in the first place, because some guys with a lot of experience got "demoted" to make room for us as unproven commodities (yet best buds with the HC) at LB and D line. I had some experience at a smaller school coming in however, and made a couple slightly above average athletes kids into D1 walk on types, which I feel is why my coach hired me in the first place. He just wanted a young energetic defensive staff. Realistically, I am still a couple years off of being a DC. I am rock solid on LB,D line technique, in the weight room as well as willing to put in the time. I am sketchy on secondary technique, and have a lot to learn. I wouldn't really feel comfortable stepping in if need be and coaching those positions. I also need to learn more about what offenses are trying to accomplish big picture wise as far as how they string their plays together, which is why I frequent this site to begin with. I called the JV defense last year, and we got worked in the beginning of the year simply because we were out coached. I got it together towards the end of the season. The D-line coach (who will readily admit this) is your typical meathead D line strength coach guru guy whose solution to everything is more line stunts and upping the level of violence you play with. So he is a ways off as well. I think this is where you kind of enter the gray area of situations like this. Were these guys doing stuff before you came on board and you guys just took over everything because you thought your ways were better? Or have they always been MIA in the off season? Of course older coaches are going to be a bit put out when they get demoted for a young guy. It's human nature so what I am trying to figure out is it you or them? Honestly if I got demoted and the younger guy was saying things like he made guys into D1 players then I would probably throw my hands up and say "You know what your right have it!" and kind of sink into the shadows as well. Not trying to start anything just kind of poking around to see what the situation was like, if it was a hostile take over kind of thing where guys who maybe were doing stuff in the off season were just pushed out then I can see their point. If they have always been absent in the off season then I can see your point. |
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Post by powerfootball71 on Apr 23, 2014 12:42:42 GMT -6
Been seeing a lot of threads like this. I might just be in a good situation but as a assistant I don't get the expectations of what is needed in the offseason.
1) weight room we have a s&c guy most of the oline is in wrestiling or track make a appearance from time to time just watching skill guys push small weight is not my thing.
2) fundraising handled buy the booster club. Each coach has a fundraiser they do (12 coaches on staff) I do the youth camp and youth coaches clinic.
3) paperwork and equipment don't have to deal with athletic department deal in tell gear hand out and hand in.
I agree with playing to your staffs strengths. Me I'm into the football end ( hudl, playbook, game planning, scouting, recruitment) the rest
I have very little interest in. We all have are parts to take stress of the hc's load.
As far as retreats I could care less. Camps clinics and staff meetings I feel build the working relationship we need to be successful. I like the family stuff because it gets the wife and kids involved but I'm spending 40 + a week with the staff how much more is alone time going to do?
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Post by coachphillip on Apr 23, 2014 12:56:25 GMT -6
I think every coach who can make it to offseason workouts should make it to offseason workouts. Even for those of us who have a "S&C guy" on staff, it's not like that coach is going to turn down some help. Coaching offseason workouts (and coaching OL) is like trying to walk a dog that doesn't want to move. You pull and pull and finally he might stop being lazy for a second. Do it again tomorrow. I resent coaches who choose not to show up in the offseason but want to "call plays" on Friday nights. I would treat the old men just like I would a player. A player doesn't show up in the offseason then homeboy ain't playing on Friday. Same goes for coaches. Only problem with that is it seems like you need them more than they need you.
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Post by coach2013 on Apr 23, 2014 13:02:22 GMT -6
Having a S and C coach is just a nice way of paying a guy who cant coach football ha ha. Seriously though, I am in there every day and often alone and I can tell you that when I have help, more eyes, more motivation and a better intensity level and the kids see that the coaching staff is putting in the time for the them and the program. I guess I am the guy on my staff that cant coach since I am the primary S and C coach.  |
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Post by veerman on Apr 23, 2014 13:05:23 GMT -6
I can't get past the 27 paid coaches? How does anyone manage that? LOL I was in the same boat!! I had a hard time focusing on the rest of the post cause I was still thinking WOW i don't even know if we have 27 paid coaches in our school much less 27 paid FB coaches lol. |
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Post by coachphillip on Apr 23, 2014 13:06:51 GMT -6
Our weight room culture has been terrible the past few years with one guy in there. This year, we have four guys daily and three others frequently and we are killing it in the weight room. Form looks better, numbers are up, relationships are better, intensity level is higher. It's great with bodies there. *end hijack*
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biggus3
Sophomore Member
Posts: 178
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Post by biggus3 on Apr 23, 2014 14:09:47 GMT -6
I realize that comments like "I've made x amount of d1 players" can be off putting. Obviously I don't go around spouting my mouth like that when dealing with people. The point is that I am confident in my abilities as a coach in the things that I do know. I will be the first to tell you that I have a bunch to learn and far off from having all the answers. I just wish that each guy would pick something that interested him outside of practice and games and owned it. That way the others that want to put in massive hours can focus on others things. I would like to have a super tight coaching staff. I came from a school that had one, and we were all over the place age wise and it was awesome. But in reality, I don't need to be their best buddy, I just know I am getting burnt out having to do the same menial tasks when there are a hundred issues that need to be addressed..
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Post by fantom on Apr 23, 2014 14:36:10 GMT -6
Our weight room culture has been terrible the past few years with one guy in there. This year, we have four guys daily and three others frequently and we are killing it in the weight room. Form looks better, numbers are up, relationships are better, intensity level is higher. It's great with bodies there. *end hijack* I can't understand why guys wouldn't want to be in there. I want us to get good and I know that this is what it takes. Personally, I do not enjoy watching workouts but the kids will never know. It's critically important and that's all there is to it. I coach the OL and I specifically push the OL in the weight room. If I want them to work to get to the next level, I think that they need to see me in there doing the same thing. |
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