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Post by chi5hi on Jan 18, 2013 14:20:55 GMT -6
If the Youth teams are winning but the varsity is not, he should go to those coaches and ask THEM what they're doing right so he can get on board.
He's not doing that. He's telling the youth coaches to follow his lead so we all can be one community.
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Post by spos21ram on Jan 18, 2013 16:25:07 GMT -6
If the Youth teams are winning but the varsity is not, he should go to those coaches and ask THEM what they're doing right so he can get on board. He's not doing that. He's telling the youth coaches to follow his lead so we all can be one community. My point is that winning at the youth level makes the people involved think it's successful, but when they get to high school and have no idea about fundamentals then how is that successful? In peewee's u need one dominant player, that's all. It's a totally different game. He said he had a good varsity season this year. He's 1 for 1. I agree if He's gets a couple more successful seasons under his belt they will open their ears more. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using proboards
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ach36
Freshmen Member
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Post by ach36 on Jan 18, 2013 16:25:28 GMT -6
Chichi you ain't got a clue. To you guys speaking of offering help, thanks. I am going to ask them (the youth coaches this month) what I can do to help them. The uniform and gear order is a great idea. Never thought of that. As far as going to their practices I did that until it just got to be too much. Still went to a few of the home games. I would just like to go into this get together with a few good ideas as to what other programs do. I really don't understand the pissing contest about X's and O's. Again I don't really care, but like one of the previous posts stated, nomenclature...stuff like that is easy to alter. And another post mentioned year round school because of lack of retention when dealing with math? Listen, I may not have remembered everything I was taught...but I haven't taken basic math for over 20 years and still know how to add, multiply and divide. Like I said now....I'm losing count...I understand guys wanting to run their own stuff. Its part of the draw of coaching, everyone wants to be John Madden. But if we can cross over anywhere, I'm sorry...its a positive, and doesn't hurt. Do you ever think the kids may say...hey, thats what we run? or thats what the varsity calls it? And have fun with it? Lighten up Vince. LOL. I don't know about most of you all. But everywhere I have been, and I mean everywhere...Power is Power, from the Crimson Tide to The Carolina Panthers. Trap...well its Trap. Iso...Hound Protection...the list goes on and on. If the HS runs power, and the Youth run power, and the MS runs power...why not all do it the same? I got a great idea...how bout getting together and discussing the power play?! That would be novel, right? Maybe we all could learn something. But like I said, the X's and O's are the least of my concerns. BTW if yall want to talk X's and O's...I like that too. LOL Like I said, this is my first year in HS. First year in the community. Want to know something else? Didn't get paid a dime. And I am not the head coach, I am just the coordinator. I think I am going ABOVE and BEYOND if you want to know the truth. I just want to win & get people excited about football.
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ach36
Freshmen Member
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Post by ach36 on Jan 18, 2013 16:36:13 GMT -6
And Ram you are exactly right. Its about fundamentals. I have seen youth league coaches caoch the heck out of the Backs, and tell the line just to "block the guy in front of you." I have seen them say" Down Block!" Or even On Gap Backer....whatever you teach. But very...VERY little time with the actual steps taken to achieve a down block. The aiming points. The hand/hat placement. Wide base. The actual block itself means alot more to me that what they run as far as scheme. But again...Power = Power...Trap = Trap. etc. Here is the thing, we are a Zone team. How many times have you even heard me mention them running zone? I just want them coached fundamentally sound and learning football. Its about the kids, not the coaches. I think sometimes we all forget that.
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Post by mahonz on Jan 18, 2013 17:31:35 GMT -6
Ach
Opening the lines of communication is great. Talking systems is not IMO. Helping them become better teachers of the game would be a nice approach for sure.
You are in year two with your program. What happened to the last crew….that’s the first thing I’d ask you. We coach up the kids for years and sometimes in multiple sports and if we create a nice football family atmosphere we are successful and continue on. The only way you all continue on is by winning. So a youth coach is going to be very suspicious of you and its nothing personal…because you may be here one day…gone the next. Just like the last crew.
That’s how it is around here….the never ending revolving door that is HS Coaching.
Not knowing the history in your area…you have to convince them that you are in this for the long haul…if that’s even possible.
Our youth Org feed 5 HS's so none of us are dialed in with just one program. If we were we'd look for stability in that relationship first and foremost.
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Post by coachjrob on Jan 18, 2013 17:38:35 GMT -6
It is good what you are doing but the head coach should also be just as involed as you are. They just may look at it as the HS only send their OC and may look down on that
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using proboards
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ach36
Freshmen Member
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Post by ach36 on Jan 19, 2013 8:16:59 GMT -6
I agree, but I think as the OC I am an extension of the HC. I was assigned to this by him. SO obviously he is concerned about it. I agree that he should be more involved. I think by appointing me, it gives a chance for maybe bad blood to not be involved. I do plan on staying here a while, but you never know. I have looked at other higher level jobs. But for now, I am in here, and whether its a year or ten I want to be successful.
Family atmosphere is awesome. The kids should have fun. I want them to like football. I want retention. Lets flip the switch or argument a little and make this like baseball. If you are teaching a kid to bunt...don't you want to teach it correctly? Not to jab at the ball with the bat? Bat head high? Feet set....hand and knuckles down the handle. Catch the ball with the bat? OK...now, if we are going to put on the squeeze play...wouldn't you want to teach them how to squeeze the correct way? OK. The only thing I have said about system is that if the Varsity and the Midget leagues run the same play...does it not make sense to teach and call the play the same? If it doesn't, make the argument for not doing it...other than the fact that..."the kids won't remember it anyway" Because thats just being ignorant. Again I don't care about the system other than that. What I do care about are the fundamentals. I care that if they are running the Basic plays...that they run them correctly, or at least are teaching those kids something other than plays where Jimmy (the best player) is the bottle cap, and Gordon and all his buddies block the guy across from them. Toss the ball to Jimmy and everyone ride his coat tails to the Midget league superbowl.
I do not care if they run the entire system. If we can cross over in places I think that it would be great! If I leave here, then at least I feel like I have attempted to help them, or be a resource to them. Thats all I care about as far as the actual plays they run.
I think the guys getting their panties in a bunch here are missing the fact I am not getting paid for this venture, I am on loan. And I am trying to extend an Olive Branch in a situation I had no part in creating. It makes no sense for them to act this way in my opinion. We are all grown men. Its time to start acting like it.
Like I said, I am new here. I believe this community would benefit from all levels supporting one another. I don't care what happened before, this is now. Lets get together. And please guys, lets stop talking about the X's and O's. Give me a few examples of your situations. Have any of you had similar situations? Good or Bad?
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Post by mahonz on Jan 19, 2013 17:25:56 GMT -6
I agree, but I think as the OC I am an extension of the HC. I was assigned to this by him. SO obviously he is concerned about it. I agree that he should be more involved. I think by appointing me, it gives a chance for maybe bad blood to not be involved. I do plan on staying here a while, but you never know. I have looked at other higher level jobs. But for now, I am in here, and whether its a year or ten I want to be successful. Family atmosphere is awesome. The kids should have fun. I want them to like football. I want retention. Lets flip the switch or argument a little and make this like baseball. If you are teaching a kid to bunt...don't you want to teach it correctly? Not to jab at the ball with the bat? Bat head high? Feet set....hand and knuckles down the handle. Catch the ball with the bat? OK...now, if we are going to put on the squeeze play...wouldn't you want to teach them how to squeeze the correct way? OK. The only thing I have said about system is that if the Varsity and the Midget leagues run the same play...does it not make sense to teach and call the play the same? If it doesn't, make the argument for not doing it...other than the fact that..."the kids won't remember it anyway" Because thats just being ignorant. Again I don't care about the system other than that. What I do care about are the fundamentals. I care that if they are running the Basic plays...that they run them correctly, or at least are teaching those kids something other than plays where Jimmy (the best player) is the bottle cap, and Gordon and all his buddies block the guy across from them. Toss the ball to Jimmy and everyone ride his coat tails to the Midget league superbowl. I do not care if they run the entire system. If we can cross over in places I think that it would be great! If I leave here, then at least I feel like I have attempted to help them, or be a resource to them. Thats all I care about as far as the actual plays they run. I think the guys getting their panties in a bunch here are missing the fact I am not getting paid for this venture, I am on loan. And I am trying to extend an Olive Branch in a situation I had no part in creating. It makes no sense for them to act this way in my opinion. We are all grown men. Its time to start acting like it. Like I said, I am new here. I believe this community would benefit from all levels supporting one another. I don't care what happened before, this is now. Lets get together. And please guys, lets stop talking about the X's and O's. Give me a few examples of your situations. Have any of you had similar situations? Good or Bad? Alright…since you asked. A few examples and a little reality here. Was part of a large youth Org for many seasons. At a new one now that is even bigger. They fed 3 major HS’s. For years they ran a Coop Youth Camp where as each HS sponsored one day of the camp. The youth Org provided the fields and all equipment necessary ( full pads camp ), took in and Administered all registrations and insurance and split all proceeds less the Orgs overhead with the three HS programs. It was bad. 25:1 player to coach ratios, players in drills that should never be drilling against one another, HS players running the show while the HS Coaches stole as much face time to recruit the 8th graders ( we have no MS Sports around here ) and the 8th grade youth coaches stealing as much face time with the HS coaches so they could get on the Freshman Staff the following season. My son became that Orgs FB Director and immediately killed that Camp and ran it ourselves and kept the $15K for the Org. needless to say the HS people were not happy. Turns out they used those funds to pay the Freshman Staff that were coaches from the Youth Org prior. Same Org years later. Decided to open the lines of communication with the HS’s again since 2 of the 3 Staffs had now completely turned over. We invited them to do a Coaches Clinic for out youth Org. Same general idea as a Coop so we carved out one Saturday for them and paid each Program $1500 for one 2 hour presentation. All of the youth coaches voted on the subjects. Tops on the list…the passing game….pass covererage and OL play. First presenter talked endlessly on his 2x2 and 3x1 shotgun spread passing game that not one single coach below the 7th grade level could even comprehend…and not mentally…physically. Not the kind of thing a 4th grade coach would be interested in at all. This coach had no clue whatsoever what it meant to teach a 9 year old how to run a route. The second presentation was awesome. Cool power point well done with tons of game film and cuts ups that he would draw over while he explained. Problem was it was a 34 cover 4 zone defense with robbers and pattern reading and fire zoning…and cartwheels and some round offs. Not even the 8th grade coaches would run that Defense and again he missed the boat entirely because every word out of his mouth fly right over everyone’s head. He may as well have spoken in Greek. He would have done well to be speaking to an NFL crowd not a youth crowd. The last speaker put his presentation together while the others spoke and was asked to leave the stage after 30 minutes because the FB Director was livid by then. A few youth coaches got up in front of the crowd and finished up the final 1-1/2 hours. Why do you think Riddell sponsors all Youth Coaches at all Glazier Clinics? It started out all feel good for Riddell with the youth Orgs. Riddell pays out very little to do this because the youth coaches don’t show up. All they have to do is look at the topics and they are done without even going. Now Riddell see an opportunity. Why do you think Glazier is playing HS coaches to do Youth Topics as filler at all of their Clinics now? HS Programs by stuff every 3 –5 seasons or longer…Youth Programs clean the shelves out every single summer. Yet…you still have HS /College / NFL coaches speaking about the youth game and while some do great others do not do very well at all. I have sat in on both. Its kinda silly really. It would be like me speaking at C.O.O.L. …I could go on for days and days but you get the gist. All of my stories end basically the same and I have been coaching Smurfs since 1983…so I have always been open to all ideas. I even coached HS ball for 4 years and hated every minute of it. The youth game is so completely and totally unique you just don’t get it…not being combative at all either…I can just tell from this thread. The reality is guys like you have no clue what guys like me need from guys like you….even if I explain it too you. You have to come down to my level and live it for an entire season. What do I do at halftime…take my kids to the bathroom so they don’t pee their pants in the 4th quarter. What’s the most important part of football….winning or losing as long as there are snacks afterwards. How do you teach third graders to run a perfect trap….you don’t. Nothing is ever perfect. Trap is actually a horrible play design at the youth levels because so many coaches play their minimum players on the D-line. You might have to Google minimum players to understand what that is….I don’t know. I had to laugh when you said trap is trap and power is power because you’d laugh at my trap. We don’t pull and it’s a flippin’ deadly play and completely on opposite ends of the Universe from the Carolina Panthers trap Im sure. . My ONLY job as a youth coach is to get Mom and Dad so incredibly hooked on the greatest game on Earth that when Johnny bugs them every May to play again…they say yes. Football is expensive and baseball is not so as long as the kids love the game their Agents cant say no. Thereafter whatever you do with them is now up to you…no me. That’s pretty much how all youth coaches roll so good luck on your mission. Your Header was a smart man to give you this job. And please don’t take this as an attack. You are tasked to help out youth coaches here. I applaud you for that…wish you were coaching at my Granson’s HS. What you are missing here is that have never taught a group of 7 year olds how to get into a proper three-point stance…the very basics of all fundamentals. Well here is a hint…we like two point stances for about 100 reasons when teaching second graders a proper stance and it works really really well. Im only trying to clear your brain up for you…that’s all. Hope this helps. I’d suggest you join AA as well. Not that you are an alcoholic but its best to be proactive when involved with the youth game. If coaching Super Smurfs makes you thirsty…which it does… I can only imagine what it would be like to coach the coaches that coach Super Smurfs from your prospective. Good Luck ! Seriously.
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Post by davecisar on Jan 19, 2013 17:37:42 GMT -6
NO ONE is getting paid to coach youth football either Most if us here dont have kids playing I wouldnt get all high and almighty about it
Most HS coaches have never coached youth ball It is a different game in many ways 70% of youth players never make it to the HS level You dont have minimum play rules and limited practice time= Your mission is probably different as well Last time I spoke to a a HS coach about MPR requirements- he looked at me like I had 3 heads etc etc
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ach36
Freshmen Member
Posts: 59
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Post by ach36 on Jan 19, 2013 18:07:45 GMT -6
Ol Cisar speaks like a crotchety old bag. WOW. The 70% thing...thats what we need to avoid. I don't want kids playing up until they get to HS and quitting. I don't care if I am here or wherever. I want kids playing football because they love football. Since we are opening up lines of communication and I have taken some shots on behalf of upper level guys. Here are some observations.
If you know the game, great! If you don't learn it. If you truly love this game, you would be ashamed at the fact that 70% of your players play up until they get to HS and then quit. In most cases it is as much the fault of the Youth Coaches who are so non inclusive that they ride their biggest and best players to youth glory while the MPR kids get MPR. It is as much the fault of Youth coaches as the HS coaches for their lack of Success.
This is the situation I am trying to circumvent here. I want these youth coaches to know how important they are to me. I want them to understand how important they are to this community, and to OUR football program in general. They are as much a part of the program as any coach on the upper level.
This being said. I see another problem here. A lot of these coaches here, upper level and lower are critical of one another. Top to Bottom. I want to end this as well. The High School coaches need to become more involved in the youth and the youth need to stop bashing the High School coaches in the stands. Like I said, I am very open about this. If someone hasd a question...my door is always open. Right now, I am not in the ultimate power seat to handle EVERY issue. But I am not a patient person...I believe if there is a problem lets get it out in the open and get it fixed because no one person is bigger than the whole. You know what I mean?
I honestly have been very surprised at the straight hatred that comes out, or has come out in this thread...I honestly did not see it coming, or would have never started it. Like I said a ton...first year coaching down....never had a clue this was such a heated area of discussion. I think its kind of childish honestly. Coaches need to worry more about their guys and stop being so ego driven.
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Post by Chris Clement on Jan 19, 2013 19:05:56 GMT -6
The 70% number holds true pretty much everywhere. It's not specific to Dave Cisar or me or Bob Goodman or anyone else. The better part of youth players don't play at higher levels.
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Post by spos21ram on Jan 19, 2013 19:22:58 GMT -6
The 70% number holds true pretty much everywhere. It's not specific to Dave Cisar or me or Bob Goodman or anyone else. The better part of youth players don't play at higher levels. I agree and I'd put money on it that this % is roughly the same for every sport. Look at how many kids play little league or youth soccer then look at the number on a high school team. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using proboards
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Post by jgordon1 on Jan 19, 2013 20:09:56 GMT -6
mahonz and ach36..great post, you are right, I have absolutely no idea......here is what I know.... I would say I have been to about 10-12 youth football practices in my life....I go there and its mostly coaches yelling, not degrading but yelling..making kids do all sorts of running, i guess it gets them in shape...I don't know...doesn't look like fun too me but I'm old....ok this is where it gets weird..I have been to also about a dozen soccer practices (my grandkids) yup I said it soccer...here is what I see..they have trained young people (20's) doing common drills, that at least to me, make sense..so another words, no matter which team you are on if your are XX years old you are doing these same basic drills..the coaches are in kind of a uniform, you can at least tell they are a coach...at the end of every, I mean EVERY practice, they come to gether and say something like I LOVE SOCCER..the kids love it and they still get a snack too...now for all you conspiracy theorists, yup, I think its true, soccer is trying to take over America and we are our own worst enemy
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Post by bobgoodman on Jan 19, 2013 20:26:31 GMT -6
Ol Cisar speaks like a crotchety old bag. WOW. The 70% thing...thats what we need to avoid. I don't want kids playing up until they get to HS and quitting. I don't care if I am here or wherever. I want kids playing football because they love football. Since we are opening up lines of communication and I have taken some shots on behalf of upper level guys. Here are some observations. If you know the game, great! If you don't learn it. If you truly love this game, you would be ashamed at the fact that 70% of your players play up until they get to HS and then quit. It's not simply a matter of them quitting. There simply isn't room for them by HS. Tackle football, in case you haven't noticed, is a big, expensive deal. Baseball they can continue to play in phys. ed. Wrestling too. Or soccer or basketball or swimming. But tackle football they're not going to play unless it's on an interscholastic team, and that team is going to play only those players who are competitive and make the team competitive. And even if they do play football in HS, the great majority of them won't play tackle football beyond there. It's not something like bowling, tennis, bicycling, fishing, or golf -- individual sports that people continue well into adulthood. It's not like soccer or basketball that you can play pickup style; even rugby & hockey can be played pickup. So what's the big deal even if you postpone the day they "quit" at football for a few years?
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ach36
Freshmen Member
Posts: 59
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Post by ach36 on Jan 19, 2013 22:17:09 GMT -6
Well I personally believe in playing as many players as possible. It's not just coach speak. I believe when you do this you up retention levels. This season we went 5-5 a vast improvement to previous seasons. And we had 13 different players score on the varsity. Ownership in the program. Retention. And system football. It works and can make you competitive from year to year fellas. I know it's going to be hard, but I am not worried, I never stop lol.
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Post by Chris Clement on Jan 20, 2013 0:25:21 GMT -6
Improving retention is a valiant goal that is good for the kids and good for the program, just understand that even if you do a great job, world class job of keeping your players, your retention rate will only go from 30% to maybe, maybe 45%.
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Post by mahonz on Jan 20, 2013 10:19:18 GMT -6
Ach
Trust me…some of my most valued football friends are HS Coaches.
What you will find out pretty quickly is that you have enough on your own plate in your World to really worry about the youth World. You have to put your program first otherwise its no football for you. Teaching Dads how to actually coach would go a loooooooooong way for you and should take far less time.
They don’t need to know how to zone block….they don’t need to know how to play gap control….they don’t need to know how to kick a PAT. There are books and Clinics and videos galore for that. They need to know HOW to teach zone blocking and gap control and kicking a PAT. Big difference. You need to teach them how to coach….how to teach….how to get thru to the kids….how to organize and then present themselves.
There are paper coaches and then there are teachers. Figure out how to change over the paper coach to an actual teacher. It has NOTHING to do with X’s and O’s or even fundamentals. Teach them your art…your trade….what gets you out of bed every day. Your passion.
I have been coaching youths long enough to understand that I have made every football mistake known to mankind. Systems, practice organization, fundamentals means absolutely nothing really if you cant teach. Now when I help other coaches out I teach them how to teach.
Its why a Coach like Dave Cisar is so successful on the scoreboard. The scoreboard is the last goal on his list. He gets it because the scoreboard always takes care of itself and his attrition rate is 0.
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Post by mahonz on Jan 20, 2013 10:34:57 GMT -6
mahonz and ach36..great post, you are right, I have absolutely no idea......here is what I know.... I would say I have been to about 10-12 youth football practices in my life....I go there and its mostly coaches yelling, not degrading but yelling..making kids do all sorts of running, i guess it gets them in shape...I don't know...doesn't look like fun too me but I'm old....ok this is where it gets weird..I have been to also about a dozen soccer practices (my grandkids) yup I said it soccer...here is what I see..they have trained young people (20's) doing common drills, that at least to me, make sense..so another words, no matter which team you are on if your are XX years old you are doing these same basic drills..the coaches are in kind of a uniform, you can at least tell they are a coach...at the end of every, I mean EVERY practice, they come to gether and say something like I LOVE SOCCER..the kids love it and they still get a snack too...now for all you conspiracy theorists, yup, I think its true, soccer is trying to take over America and we are our own worst enemy Funny. We instill in them that sokker is for girls. We have a kid on our team….9 year old that started playing sokker when he was 5 and scored 10 goals per game. So the next season he played on an 8U team as a 6 year old and scored 5 goals per game. Mom and Dad now had him playing Spring and Fall sokker. As a 7 year old he played on a 9U tryout team and scored 5 goals per game. The kid is a super star now in the eyes of the sokker people. Well he played football last season for the first time. Ran into them yesterday at a basketball game. Oldest son was playing and the kid on our team...younger brother.... was a spectator. Turns out he wanted to wrestle and take Karate over playing sokker so he could toughen up for football. So….one down…..millions to go. Many of the youth FB Orgs around here press and press and press to get the kids into pads as young as possible. There is a Division where you can feasibly start playing tackle once you turn 5 years old. Strictly developmental and not a part of the main League so costs are at a minimum for the Orgs and the Families. The whole idea behind it...keep the sokker fangs out of them as soon as humanly possible.
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Post by jgordon1 on Jan 20, 2013 12:17:55 GMT -6
Mahonz....you know I actually think kids 5 and 6 years old are better off playing soccer..I think it is better for them developmentally..the whole eye foot coordination and all that..I think we do a disservice to those kids....really look at a hs soccer team..how many of those kids could really play for you..at our school I would say maybe 1-3 athletically but really zero because they are they aren't tuff...now the question is, did the soccer make them not tuff or are they girl thingys playing soccer BTW great post @ach
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Post by jlenwood on Jan 20, 2013 12:39:30 GMT -6
ach.....I have gone back a reread every one of your posts on this thread, and the one thing I am not seeing is the part where you said you went to the organization and asked "What can I do for your organization?"
Until you know their needs, not your perception of what their needs are, how can you even begin to presume you know what is best for them? Like mahonz said...maybe they don't want to or can't run trap like you want.
Look, you have continually been the aggressor in your posts on this thread to people who have actually given you solid advice, calling coaches crotchety-grow up-egos...blah blah blah. Until you have coached youth, you have no idea what it is like because it is not the same as HS ball. Yes you still have 11 on 11, offense defense etc. But it is an entirely different animal.
And as far as running systems, or doing what they do at at HS or whatever, it really isn't important. When I was a youth coach we ran the wishbone. When those kids got to JR high and HS they were playing spread. It made no difference. Most of the teams in out pee wee organization run the double wing. That has no resemblance to anything we run in our school, however they come to the JR high program knowing how to tackle, block, run, catch etc.
I ran a youth organization and coached there for 7 years, than I got hired on to our JR high program and from there have been a varsity coach for the last 4 years. I am telling you from experience it is different. Also, don't be so quick to dismiss youth coaches. I know I could go to our youth organization right now, steal 3 or 4 coaches and put together a top notch varsity staff. These guys know some ball. I will agree there are some really bad youth coaches out there, but can''t the same be said for HS also?
Bottom line, find out what they want, find out if you can help them organizationally, and last off (and I do mean last) offer to help coach the coaches. If you are asked to coach the coaches, find out again, what do they want to hear from you, not what YOU want them to learn. After a season of this, you will begin to gain their trust and then the sky is the limit. Good luck.
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Post by davecisar on Jan 20, 2013 21:03:24 GMT -6
Hatred? Really? Where exactly Someone isnt showing hatred simply because they dont agree 100% with your point of view Wow with skin that sensitive and thin, you better never go outside or coach anything LOL WOW
That type attitude and lack of understanding of the youth game/dynamic is why so many youth programs dont work well with the HS- personally Ive never had any problems with them- they are my biggest fans/supporters and we dont run any of their schemes, use any of their numbering and very few of their drills The last season I coached 8th grade football all but 1 of my kids went on to play for the local HS- the 1 kid who didnt play- only weighed 84 lbs My previous program in an open enrollment city- my kids played at 8 different schools and the local Jesuit private school stood in line to pluck the very best ones.
We NEVER condition- no sprints in last 17 years- our practices are fast paced enough that we dont need it and at 25 players per team- it isnt like just 11 are starting both ways- all kids play in every game and we play in the largest and most competitive league in the state with over 100 teams.
Some of the observations here must come from very weak leagues. Here 1 stud player wont win all your games for you. Coaching quality varies, but to say you have X in your area, therefore X is nationwide, simply isnt true. At the clinics I do I see GREAT youth coaching and I see poor youth coaching, like anything else, the quality varies.
Our goals of providing high numbers of kids who love playing the game, are coachable, have solid fundamentals, work hard and are in a habit of winning- make them pretty happy fellas. I only have 3 teams now- about 75 kids and in the last 4 years I think we had 3 total drops- kids that either dropped or didnt return to play the following year.
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Post by coachdoug on Jan 21, 2013 2:00:20 GMT -6
Just a word of clarification about the "70% of youth players never play in H.S." stat that we've all seen quoted here a zillion times. I found that number to be somewhat unbelievable when I first heard it - after all, my 8th grade teams typically had similar retention #s going into H.S. as they did from one youth level to the next (i.e. 90%+). I talked with numerous other youth coaches and was told the same thing from all of them. So, I went back and reviewed the actual study (from Mich St in the late 90s/early 00s, IIRC, although I can't seem to find it again now), and what it said was 70% of youth players never play VARSITY football in HS. I suspect that most youth programs see 80-90% or better retention from youth to Frosh ball, but that the majority of attrition actually takes place at the HS level. A small (and admittedly, not scientifically valid) survey of local high schools seems to validate that - most have frosh teams with 50-60 players, but Sr classes at the varsity level of 15-20 players - there's your 70% attrition right there. That doesn't mean the HS coaches are doing a bad job nor should they "be ashamed at the fact that 70% of (their) players ... quit." The reality is that the majority of kids try a number of sports and other activities when they're younger before deciding to concentrate on one or two by the time they're juniors in HS. Heck, that happened with me - in the 8th & 9th grade, I played Football, Basketball, Baseball, and was in band and a percussion ensemble. By 10th grade, I dropped Basketball and all the musical stuff, and by 11th grade I was only playing football. Football isn't the right game for everyone, and a lot of kids are going to pick something else as they go through HS. As youth coaches, we're doing a good job if most of our kids love the game enough to try frosh ball once they leave us, but if most of those kids dont' stick with it through Varsity (and statistically, most won't), it doesn't mean we or the HS did a bad job - it's just the way it goes.
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Post by davecisar on Jan 21, 2013 6:52:19 GMT -6
Doug
I cant find it either- it was put out by Michigan State It said kids playing X sport quit playing the sport by age 14, they never play it in High School
Nationwide- when you look at leagues- the biggest numbers are at the youngest age levels As the kids age up, you see fewer and fewer teams Where I am many of the larger organizations have twice or even three times as many youngest age teams as they do oldest age teams
While football ISNT for everyone, I feel very strongly that with better coaching these numbers could improve significantly. Ive coached in 5 different leagues- different areas and demographics and had significantly better results than those who came before me as well as those that came after me-so yes I know it can be done. You can retain all your kids, have fun, teach great fundys, get reasonable playing time for all AND win, they arent mutually exclusive when done correctly.
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Post by coachdoug on Jan 21, 2013 8:01:43 GMT -6
Doug I cant find it either- it was put out by Michigan State It said kids playing X sport quit playing the sport by age 14, they never play it in High School Nationwide- when you look at leagues- the biggest numbers are at the youngest age levels As the kids age up, you see fewer and fewer teams Where I am many of the larger organizations have twice or even three times as many youngest age teams as they do oldest age teams While football ISNT for everyone, I feel very strongly that with better coaching these numbers could improve significantly. Ive coached in 5 different leagues- different areas and demographics and had significantly better results than those who came before me as well as those that came after me-so yes I know it can be done. You can retain all your kids, have fun, teach great fundys, get reasonable playing time for all AND win, they arent mutually exclusive when done correctly. Yeah, that sounds familiar, too ... I read that study a long time ago. 70% attrition by age 14 still sounds awfully high, but if they're counting every kid that ever played any level starting at Mitey Mite, I guess I can see it. Heck, even if you had 90% retention every year, you'll only have about half your Mitey Mite kids still playing by the time they reach Midget level (and less than half by the time you get to the frosh level). Nonetheless, I think that while the statistics sound alarming, there is a certain amount of "statistical manipulation" and the attrition rate once the kids get to HS is even higher, as I demonstrated in my earlier post. I agree that we can do better and we should all strive to do better, but 50 freshman ending up as a senior class of 15 is probably going to remain the norm for the foreseeable future.
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Post by davecisar on Jan 21, 2013 8:40:23 GMT -6
Doug
The HS numbers are the HS numbers- I get that
All I can control is how many of my kids show up to play in the 9th grade who love playing, are coachable and cant imagine themselves not playing- as an aggregated group, youth coaches can do a MUCH better job of doing that than what's happening now.
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Post by Chris Clement on Jan 21, 2013 10:57:49 GMT -6
I'll use an example of my very first team, they were a great youth team because they all worked hard and we fit them into the scheme, but here's how they break down:
18 total player 1-player was a manchild who continued to be a man child. In his first frosh game he rushed for 500 and made 50 tackles. 1-his younger brother became a hammer that often hit the thumb instead of the nail, but so much potential 1-was a very serviceable, albeit undersized, cornerback 1-became a decent DT after skipping a season 1-chose hockey over football, played at varsity level 3-played two seasons and quit as everyone outgrew them 1-skipped a year because his parents were nuts about his grades and then came back, was quite a good DB. Great body control. 1-kept being pressured into coming out because he had the build of an all-state DE, but was a total puttytat. 2-played for a couple weeks, one was too small and his speed wasn't appreciated, the other had failed a grade and didn't want to play on the soph team. 2-became potheads 2-got into cadets pretty seriously and had to choose. 2-dropped off the face of the earth, I guess they just became regular kids? One had neither aptitude nor desire, he only played because his brother was on the team, the other wasn't very good either.
So of 18:
3 continued playing (16.6%) 2 quit and came back (11.1%) 3 played for at least one season and quit during HS (16.6%) 3 played briefly or sporadically (16.6%) 1 went into another sport (5.05%) 6 stopped playing altogether (33.3%)
If I had to project into the future a little bit, I bet 6 will end up finishing HS on the team, which is pretty much spot on the 70% number. The point isn't to price that statistic is accurate, but to illustrate how you can lose so many of the kids so easily. If they had succeeded in keeping every kid they had a reasonable chance at keeping, they could have kept at most 9.
HS activities are far more intense and demanding of these kids time, and they have to start choosing between them. You can't do it all. The problem is only exacerbated when the football coach has mandatory lifting at some ungodly hour all year long, basketball wants open gym in the evenings, if the kid ways to diversify a little into drama or something then that too becomes a huge time commitment. If you want to keep more kids then maybe we shouldn't be trying to monopolize them so much.
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Post by mahonz on Jan 21, 2013 11:23:11 GMT -6
The last two 8th grade teams I coached....one I coached for 6 seasons and the other just 2....
An incredible 60% of those players started for their HS Varsity FB Programs eventually. BUT...including the private schools and two moved out of State they were scattered over 7 different HS's. So more jobs available per the average?...I don't know.
I'd still like to think I had a minuscule amount to do with that. I believe I instilled that pure love for the game and a solid work ethic in each of them. Beyond that it was all the HS's doings.
Currently I am stuck in Super Smurf h e l l . All of my grandsons are beginning to play now so I will be tying shoe laces and snapping chin straps for years.
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Post by bobgoodman on Jan 21, 2013 19:13:25 GMT -6
There's a quick & dirty way of figuring this. Take the total number of players in youth football; that might be quoted as the number who've played over the year up to then. Then take the total number of players in interscholastic HS football. Then figure a substantial fraction of the latter who never played youth football (or had given it up in between for several years, in some cases because of weight limits) and subtract that. Then figure your ratio. 3 in 10 looks pretty reasonable; it may even be high.
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Post by jrk5150 on Feb 4, 2013 21:10:51 GMT -6
I have never coached youth...I don't understand the concept of a youth program being successful..do you go out and play other youth programs? They way they do it here is we have a youth program out in our section of the county..there are probably 500 kids in the program with about 20-22 kids to a team. so they have 3 leagues (A,B, C) w/ 8 teams in a league and just play each other.. I guess a team could be successful but the league? We play Pop Warner, and our league essentially mirrors the HS league, then playoffs going regional. We are consistently more successful against the same towns the HS plays.
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