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Post by coachjm on Dec 30, 2012 20:17:25 GMT -6
To create an atmosphere where it is a goal to humiliate a kid who wants to play a game for fun seems like foolish practice to me. By posting a list that will make a portion of your roster feel bad about themselves makes me curious of what the objective in coaching is. Incentive programs are wonderful, having expectations are necessary, accountability measures for those who fall short on "mandatory" expectations are essential. However, creating a list to humiliate those KIDS (talking HS) because they are not meeting the arbitrary expectation that you created for them would do nothing but eliminate prospective students/kids who likely need the discipline and structure that football offers the most.... The goal is to motivate and teach the kids to appreciate the necessary work that is required to reach a championship level in life, this has very little to do with accountability and humiliation and a whole lot to do with relationships, communication, and common goals.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2012 20:30:26 GMT -6
To create an atmosphere where it is a goal to humiliate a kid who wants to play a game for fun seems like foolish practice to me. By posting a list that will make a portion of your roster feel bad about themselves makes me curious of what the objective in coaching is. Incentive programs are wonderful, having expectations are necessary, accountability measures for those who fall short on "mandatory" expectations are essential. However, creating a list to humiliate those KIDS (talking HS) because they are not meeting the arbitrary expectation that you created for them would do nothing but eliminate prospective students/kids who likely need the discipline and structure that football offers the most.... The goal is to motivate and teach the kids to appreciate the necessary work that is required to reach a championship level in life, this has very little to do with accountability and humiliation and a whole lot to do with relationships, communication, and common goals. Will it be fun when they fire you? That is reality at the HS level.
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Post by coachjm on Dec 30, 2012 21:00:43 GMT -6
Coachbry, are you stating....
The reality of HS football is it is necessary to humiliate kids (as method to motivation) or you will get fired?
To answer your question no it would not be fun to be fired! However in my experience (which includes being a state coach of the year, college coach, and being fired) when there is a major difference in philosophy, which mine would include not humiliating the athletes, a change in path is typically best for all parties.
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GANNO
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Post by GANNO on Dec 30, 2012 21:46:47 GMT -6
Coachbry, are you stating.... The reality of HS football is it is necessary to humiliate kids (as method to motivation) or you will get fired? To answer your question no it would not be fun to be fired! However in my experience (which includes being a state coach of the year, college coach, and being fired) when there is a major difference in philosophy, which mine would include not humiliating the athletes, a change in path is typically best for all parties. I know and partially agree with your stance on humiliation... However, I believe people often mistake the motives of teaching tools, humiliation is sometimes a by product or a side effect of a consequence. It can and should be attended to and part of the learning process. Its a part of the healing. You speak of relationships so I am sure you will understand that in a lot of situations you cannot always protect one's feelings if you are explicitly teaching or training your expectations. As coaches, we are entrusted to teach lessons about life including consequences for decisions. If you have kids, I am sure you love them. However, I am also sure that humiliation had been a part of the discipline process you use. Standing in a corner for example is humiliating. Why do we teach/train in this way? it is because lessons learned through negative sanctions work to achieve a desired behavior. It is a great motivator to change behavior when you are feel like you are not socially accepted. For example, farting in a public place is socially taught through humiliation. Someone either directly or indirectly teaches the expected behaviors through dirty looks, shunning, etc. You also reenforce the positive behaviors of the rest of the people who see the consequences when pointing out what one did wrong. The good, bad, and ugly, whether on the field of play, classroom, or job site is part of life. I would never humiliate or 'punish' a player out of hate. It is done to teach something. It is to reinforce behaviors or expectations. If a player were embarrassed than obviously that would need to be dealt with. At the end of the day, we do not know if this sign was for team eyes only or what. We don't know if this was suppose to get into the media. We don't know what other consequences had been used for players.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2012 21:53:16 GMT -6
Coachbry, are you stating.... The reality of HS football is it is necessary to humiliate kids (as method to motivation) or you will get fired? To answer your question no it would not be fun to be fired! However in my experience (which includes being a state coach of the year, college coach, and being fired) when there is a major difference in philosophy, which mine would include not humiliating the athletes, a change in path is typically best for all parties. By no means. But it is not the job of a coach to make sure everybody gets a trophy....I Know its becoming increasingly unpopular, but you get paid to win as a coach. I am not going to waste that much energy tippy toeing around people feeling to make sure I dont offend. At some point, if they have any pride,their will be shame on their and embarrassment.
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Post by fantom on Dec 30, 2012 22:10:35 GMT -6
Does anybody seriously think that posting a sign like that for HS kids is a good idea? I find it amusing to fantasize about it but I know that we can't and shouldn't do it. Printing it out, showing it to some of our no-shows, chuckling and asking what they think about it is intriguing, though.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2012 22:13:40 GMT -6
Does anybody seriously think that posting a sign like that for HS kids is a good idea? I find it amusing to fantasize about it but I know that we can't and shouldn't do it. Printing it out, showing it to some of our no-shows, chuckling and asking what they think about it is intriguing, though. Its a great idea. you are not humiliating an individual. It is just not politcally correct. if the kids who arent working, quit? so be it. But its not a good idea cause we might damage little johnnies self esteem. God forbid.
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GANNO
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Post by GANNO on Dec 30, 2012 22:17:48 GMT -6
Does anybody seriously think that posting a sign like that for HS kids is a good idea? I find it amusing to fantasize about it but I know that we can't and shouldn't do it. Printing it out, showing it to some of our no-shows, chuckling and asking what they think about it is intriguing, though. I personally would not do anything like this sign, but I have no problem in calling out my players in front of their friends, parents, coaches, etc. I think anything that holds players responsible for decisions, behaviors, or attitudes which affect a team is fair game. Most players who do not show up for workouts or practices are plain selfish. You cannot win HS football with selfish players.
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Post by fantom on Dec 30, 2012 22:20:52 GMT -6
Does anybody seriously think that posting a sign like that for HS kids is a good idea? I find it amusing to fantasize about it but I know that we can't and shouldn't do it. Printing it out, showing it to some of our no-shows, chuckling and asking what they think about it is intriguing, though. Its a great idea. you are not humiliating an individual. It is just not politcally correct. if the kids who arent working, quit? so be it. But its not a good idea cause we might damage little johnnies self esteem. God forbid. I just believe in picking my fights more carefully than this. No sense getting into a totally avoidable mess especially when, if the principal calls me in and asks about it, I don't really have a good defense.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2012 22:28:20 GMT -6
Its a great idea. you are not humiliating an individual. It is just not politcally correct. if the kids who arent working, quit? so be it. But its not a good idea cause we might damage little johnnies self esteem. God forbid. I just believe in picking my fights more carefully than this. No sense getting into a totally avoidable mess especially when, if the principal calls me in and asks about it, I don't really have a good defense. Simple defense. You are telling the truth. Why would you talk about kids who dont do the work? ask the principal if the kids failing classes are getting calls from ivy league schools or any school for that matter.
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Post by fantom on Dec 30, 2012 22:34:31 GMT -6
I just believe in picking my fights more carefully than this. No sense getting into a totally avoidable mess especially when, if the principal calls me in and asks about it, I don't really have a good defense. Simple defense. You are telling the truth. Why would you talk about kids who dont do the work? ask the principal if the kids failing classes are getting calls from ivy league schools or any school for that matter. Try posting the names of kids who are failing your class and see how that works for you.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2012 22:40:55 GMT -6
Simple defense. You are telling the truth. Why would you talk about kids who dont do the work? ask the principal if the kids failing classes are getting calls from ivy league schools or any school for that matter. Try posting the names of kids who are failing your class and see how that works for you. try winning with those kids who dont show up and work. In both cases you and I get fired.
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Post by CS on Dec 30, 2012 22:46:45 GMT -6
Simple defense. You are telling the truth. Why would you talk about kids who dont do the work? ask the principal if the kids failing classes are getting calls from ivy league schools or any school for that matter. Try posting the names of kids who are failing your class and see how that works for you. You really can't compare the two though coach. 1) doing it with grades is highly illegal (at least in my state). 2) football isn't mandatory. It is a privilege to play this great sport and should be treated as such in my opinion. To me the sign being talked about is middle school tantrum crap. Is this strength coach a child? You can call out a player but why not man up and do it to his face instead of being a 13 yr old girl writing angry letters? And I get that it is for the other players to see and get motivated also but a good "you're not just hurting yourself but the team" session followed by team punishment can light their asses up faster I'd bet.
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Post by fantom on Dec 30, 2012 22:47:26 GMT -6
Try posting the names of kids who are failing your class and see how that works for you. try winning with those kids who dont show up and work. In both cases you and I get fired. That's quite a leap in logic. Of course you need to get the kids into the weight room to be any good. Is this the best way to motivate them? I don't think that it is. Will some guys slack off? Undoubtedly and some who miss will be good players, players who we'll be better with than without.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2012 22:56:39 GMT -6
try winning with those kids who dont show up and work. In both cases you and I get fired. That's quite a leap in logic. Of course you need to get the kids into the weight room to be any good. Is this the best way to motivate them? I don't think that it is. Will some guys slack off? Undoubtedly and some who miss will be good players, players who we'll be better with than without. If I use your logic, hard work is only two words that have no teeth in my program. Hard work is just a cliche. And as a coach i am fraud. The kids who dont show up are still going to play....why should the kid who would otherwise bust his tail do it? Losing brings more losing...winning brings more winning..
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2012 22:58:17 GMT -6
Try posting the names of kids who are failing your class and see how that works for you. You really can't compare the two though coach. 1) doing it with grades is highly illegal (at least in my state). 2) football isn't mandatory. It is a privilege to play this great sport and should be treated as such in my opinion. To me the sign being talked about is middle school tantrum crap. Is this strength coach a child? You can call out a player but why not man up and do it to his face instead of being a 13 yr old girl writing angry letters? And I get that it is for the other players to see and get motivated also but a good "you're not just hurting yourself but the team" session followed by team punishment can light their {censored} up faster I'd bet. Same thing I said to fantom. At some point unless you have some teeth to your words, those words are just noise.
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Post by fantom on Dec 30, 2012 23:06:48 GMT -6
That's quite a leap in logic. Of course you need to get the kids into the weight room to be any good. Is this the best way to motivate them? I don't think that it is. Will some guys slack off? Undoubtedly and some who miss will be good players, players who we'll be better with than without. If I use your logic, hard work is only two words that have no teeth in my program. Hard work is just a cliche. And as a coach i am fraud. The kids who dont show up are still going to play....why should the kid who would otherwise bust his tail do it? Losing brings more losing...winning brings more winning.. What the hell are you talking about? When did I say anything like that?
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Post by fantom on Dec 30, 2012 23:08:59 GMT -6
You really can't compare the two though coach. 1) doing it with grades is highly illegal (at least in my state). 2) football isn't mandatory. It is a privilege to play this great sport and should be treated as such in my opinion. To me the sign being talked about is middle school tantrum crap. Is this strength coach a child? You can call out a player but why not man up and do it to his face instead of being a 13 yr old girl writing angry letters? And I get that it is for the other players to see and get motivated also but a good "you're not just hurting yourself but the team" session followed by team punishment can light their {censored} up faster I'd bet. Same thing I said to fantom. At some point unless you have some teeth to your words, those words are just noise. So you do that now? You post the names of kids who don't get to the weight room regularly? How's that working out for you?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2012 23:09:49 GMT -6
If I use your logic, hard work is only two words that have no teeth in my program. Hard work is just a cliche. And as a coach i am fraud. The kids who dont show up are still going to play....why should the kid who would otherwise bust his tail do it? Losing brings more losing...winning brings more winning.. What the hell are you talking about? When did I say anything like that? If I read you correctly, you believe you can talk to kids and find the button to push....or work around them correct?
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Post by fantom on Dec 30, 2012 23:12:32 GMT -6
What the hell are you talking about? When did I say anything like that? If I read you correctly, you believe you can talk to kids and find the button to push....or work around them correct? Guess that's about right.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2012 23:16:42 GMT -6
If I read you correctly, you believe you can talk to kids and find the button to push....or work around them correct? Guess that's about right. so you now know how I got to hard work is only an option...not a mandate...
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Post by Chris Clement on Dec 30, 2012 23:19:55 GMT -6
I though you guys weren't allowed to fail anyone? Or do you give them failing grades and a credit nonetheless?
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Post by Coach Huey on Dec 30, 2012 23:20:28 GMT -6
you could post this. should you? well,
you could punch every kid in the mouth that smarts off ... but, you probably shouldn't as there will be consequences.
you could post this exact letter ... should you? well, guess it depends on what the consequences will be.
you could dog-cuss your players every time they make a mistake. should you? there will be some consequences if you do ... and I don't just mean in the form of getting fired or public reprimand, etc.
next, we shall argue the merits of wearing shirts with a collar or those without a collar.
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Post by fantom on Dec 30, 2012 23:23:13 GMT -6
Guess that's about right. so you now know how I got to hard work is only an option...not a mandate... It's always only an option. You can make them get into the weight room but you can't force them to work hard. Hell, the LSU S&C guy whose sign started this has them on scholarship and can't make them work.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2012 23:28:31 GMT -6
so you now know how I got to hard work is only an option...not a mandate... It's always only an option. You can make them get into the weight room but you can't force them to work hard. Hell, the LSU S&C guy whose sign started this has them on scholarship and can't make them work. They can always ask to transfer or quit...or pull the scholarship......You dont get rewarded for showing up at lsu...rewarded meaning just being part of the team.
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Post by fantom on Dec 30, 2012 23:42:00 GMT -6
It's always only an option. You can make them get into the weight room but you can't force them to work hard. Hell, the LSU S&C guy whose sign started this has them on scholarship and can't make them work. They can always ask to transfer or quit...or pull the scholarship......You dont get rewarded for showing up at lsu...rewarded meaning just being part of the team. Evidently these guys did more than just show up and play. Looks like some of these guys are pretty good players.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2012 23:58:18 GMT -6
They can always ask to transfer or quit...or pull the scholarship......You dont get rewarded for showing up at lsu...rewarded meaning just being part of the team. Evidently these guys did more than just show up and play. Looks like some of these guys are pretty good players. good luck coach.
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Post by coachdawhip on Dec 31, 2012 8:31:39 GMT -6
You can have accountability without humiliating kids. Accountability does not equate to humiliation. When you are on scholarship to play football you are not a kid. In the real world when you don't do your job your fired. 18 is real world. Les And Tommy are upset this got out because these kids obviously changed because they both tweeted that we should re tweet these ate great teammate kids but I course that 1 isn't making rounds but it is obvious this worked.
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Post by CS on Dec 31, 2012 11:27:28 GMT -6
You can have accountability without humiliating kids. Accountability does not equate to humiliation. When you are on scholarship to play football you are not a kid. In the real world when you don't do your job your fired. 18 is real world. Les And Tommy are upset this got out because these kids obviously changed because they both tweeted that we should re tweet these ate great teammate kids but I course that 1 isn't making rounds but it is obvious this worked. It's no question that something like this will work. To me it seems childish. If I did it i would feel almost liked was throwing a tantrum because I'm not getting what I want. It's easier getting the rest of the team to jump their ass than me having to lower myself to a temper tantrum
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Post by John Knight on Dec 31, 2012 11:39:33 GMT -6
I think it would do a lot more good to post this list on the Facebook team page!
LOL!!!!
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