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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 17, 2006 17:30:04 GMT -6
Ok, since we had such GREAT feedback on Bluto's dilema, I am posing one of my own here.
Situation--Summer conditioning...2 and half hours a day, 4 days a week (Mon, Tues, Thurs, Fri) with a 2 1/2 practice/7on7 activity on Wednesdays. Weights/ Conditioning held off campus under guidelines of Professional strength coach--). Weights/ Conditioning TOP NOTCH.
Rules..kids are allowed 4 unexcused misses during the summer. Football camps do not count as misses, and.
Dilemna-- As conditiong progresses, Coach has designed several days that are "gut check" type days. These are workouts with extra "ummph" in them. Unfortunately, we have noticed that often, the attendance is a bit less on these days.
Can you get upset with kids who are missing their "allowed #" simply because they take a day off? More to the point..what if they take their "day off" on a tough day, simply because it is tough...BUT within the rules.
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Post by stone65 on Jul 17, 2006 17:42:39 GMT -6
Teenagers are teenagers. I wish my kids would make everyone of their workouts, but they are going to miss what we allow them.
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Post by phantom on Jul 17, 2006 18:32:02 GMT -6
By missing the "gut checks" they're taking the test anyway. If your rule says they can miss four days there isn't much you can do. I'd let them know that missing the workouts because they're tough says something about them.
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Post by sls on Jul 17, 2006 19:44:07 GMT -6
We have 24 workouts, kids are also allowed to miss 4. As long as they have one of their 4 I do not ask them where they were at.
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Post by toprowguy on Jul 17, 2006 19:48:47 GMT -6
What happens to kids that miss more then 4 days? How do you handle missing because of baseball or basketball games, or family vavcation. This is something that we are struggling with. All offseason workouts are considered voluntary by the admin.
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Post by gamedog on Jul 17, 2006 20:30:59 GMT -6
If you set the rules and then get mad because someone is inside of those rules then why did you give them the rules in the first place?
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champyun
Junior Member
Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well.
Posts: 252
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Post by champyun on Jul 17, 2006 20:33:08 GMT -6
I'm with sls. If you are going to let them miss 4, don't ask why they missed. Knowing me, I'd switch up one of those "gut check" days and catch them when they think they're coming in for a regular workout. Keep 'em guessing is what I always say.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 17, 2006 20:41:16 GMT -6
gamedog...I think it is a work ethic that one is trying to instill. I am not the header, so these aren't my rules, but I do think it is pretty standard from reading these boards and talking to other coaches. ( a week worth of misses).
The frustrating part in the scenario I described is that the kids aren't seeing big picture, regardless of how much it is preached to them. They don't see it as "preparing" for the 4th quarter in week 8, they look at it as something to get through and are able to rationalize their behavior.
You would want/hope that kids who don't have a legit reason to miss...wouldn't miss.
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Post by gamedog on Jul 17, 2006 20:55:26 GMT -6
I meant "you" as in whoever set the rules. Yes we hope they would be there 100%, but if there is a rule about how much to be there and they meet that standard, then you don't have a right to be pissed this year. Change the rule next year to no misses.
As a teacher we get so many sick days a year. If you used them and the administration got pissed that would not be right as long as your inside of the rules.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 17, 2006 20:58:50 GMT -6
Game dog...I think you still have a right to be upset, as you are trying to instill an attitude that "reaching standard" is not the same as STRIVING FOR GREATNESS.
I wouldn't take a personel or a sick day, just to take one. Just my philosophy of life.
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Post by gamedog on Jul 17, 2006 21:02:54 GMT -6
Your missing my point I think. My first kid was born at 4:30 am after a game on a friday. I was in the film room by 6:30, so I have expectations myself.
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Post by phantom on Jul 17, 2006 21:11:18 GMT -6
I meant "you" as in whoever set the rules. Yes we hope they would be there 100%, but if there is a rule about how much to be there and they meet that standard, then you don't have a right to be pissed this year. Change the rule next year to no misses. As a teacher we get so many sick days a year. If you used them and the administration got pissed that would not be right as long as your inside of the rules. I take sick days or personal days but not on critical days, like finals or SOLs (state testing) if I can help it. Like I said, by not taking the test, these guys ARE taking the test and not doing well.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 17, 2006 21:13:44 GMT -6
No, i think i understand your point. You are saying "if you have a problem with it, then change the rules" And I agree with that in principle. I guess it is just hard to regulate such a policy. Kids have no days off, for vacation with family? What would qualify as "excused" and what wouldn't. Etc.
But you are right...hey, the rules are there...they are following the letter, if not spirit, of the rules.
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Post by gamedog on Jul 17, 2006 21:15:20 GMT -6
What if the administration said that all days were critical and tried to fire you for missing. Would you now say that they have a right to be mad even though you were within the rules?
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Jul 18, 2006 0:30:48 GMT -6
Believe me when I say I feel your pain. In our situation kids (and/or parents) will look for- and find any loophole you have. I guess I should remember that from my days in HS... I was notorious for stuff like that.
Phantom makes a good point- if they miss "gut check"... then they have had their gut checked.. and that "check" didn't grade out too well.
Sure, it is right to be upset. It might be good to discuss it with them. They will argue that it is "within the rules", but you can concede that point to them. Saying something to the effect of this may help: "Anyone can take the easy way out. Anyone can work hard when they feel like it. Champions look for opportunities to get better. You will play like you prepare- and if you avoid the tough days- what will happen when we face the tough team- or you face the tough player". That would have worked on me... coaches screaming at me made me work hard in a violent way. Coaches who were "disappointed" seemed to get complete control of my will during the season. Not all kids are like that, I realize. But I think if you explain how those days help them be better, they might see it.
RE: my senior who was going to go to the girlfriend's sister's wedding (sounds like a dang soap opera...), I talked with him 3 times before he really saw that I'm not trying to hurt him with punishment- I am trying to help him with by demanding accountability and having high expectations.
Some kids will get it right away, some will eventually... and some never will.
We give 20% of our days off without explanation. (some exceptions/leeway for cases in split custody families, etc.). I have some kids who seem to miss Thursday (tough day) more. If it becomes a habit, I kindly point it out to them.
In my situation I was (still am a bit) mad... but by confronting the issue- even just by talking to the kids, we are getting some resolution and I am trying to move on... they know how I feel, but the ultimate response is up to them.
Good luck.
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Post by lochness on Jul 18, 2006 4:24:40 GMT -6
Why not make the "gut check" days unannounced?
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Post by los on Jul 18, 2006 4:43:45 GMT -6
Wow, there's some good points here in this discussion and all are right on! This is a little off the original topic but in keeping with the theme of conditioning,work ethic and human nature. During the 2nd half of our final ballgame last season I noticed one of the senior linemen coming of the field (taking himself out of the game) because he was "tired". The game meant nothing as far as getting into the playoffs cause we were already out but we were behind in the 4th qtr. and trying to come back and win it! (Gut check time). After the kid missed a few plays and I noticed he was just standing around talking to his buddies with his helmet off and not acting as if he was ready to return, I felt compelled to approach him! All I said to him(in a normal tone) was " This is probably the last football game you'll ever play. How can you not want to be out there every second after all the work you've put into this, You can rest next week but will remember this last game the rest of your life!" The kid thought a second, strapped on his helmet and asked the hc to put him back in. The guys came back from a 21-0 halftime defecit to win 24-21. So in spite of having a losing season, the seniors could have good memories of this final effort! Like you all said, its about individual accountability, expectations of coaches vs those of the players, work ethic and human nature to want to avoid pain and suffering(take the easy way out of a situation). As I got older, I became more grateful to have had coaches who pushed us and demanded more than we thought was our best!
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Post by sls on Jul 18, 2006 6:09:32 GMT -6
IF our kids miss more than 4 workouts, they are suspended for our first game. They are excused for varsity basketall games or varsity baseball games (not community baseball) Vacation is not excused, use your 4 days for vacation.
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Post by blb on Jul 18, 2006 6:40:04 GMT -6
We cannot make summer activities mandatory in our state (although some coaches subvert the rule with attendance requirements) or school. Also, I do not want to have to become a cop and chase them down, decide whose excuse for missing is legitimate or not, etc. As it is I already start the season mad at some of them.
Remember, gang, the biggest thing you have that your kids want is PT. I tell ours they don't HAVE to come to workouts...but they don't HAVE to play, either. Also, if we do not workout in the summer, we will surely lose in the fall.
"Perception is more important than reality. If you have poor attendance in the summer, what I hear YOU saying is, 'Coach, I think I'd like to be on the team this year, but I don't really care if I get on the field'."
I further tell them when I evaluate them as a player, beside 40, bench, and squat, I look at their commitment level: Does the player care about winning? Can I trust him? The answers are found in their summer effort and attendance.
They know that I make up the first depth chart in part based on their performance on our Physical Fitness Test. Our experienced players also realize they need to condition in the summer just to survive two-a-days.
Next week is our camp. Told the kids, "Our starters are going to be there." Is that subtle enough?
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Post by phantom on Jul 18, 2006 6:41:48 GMT -6
IF our kids miss more than 4 workouts, they are suspended for our first game. They are excused for varsity basketall games or varsity baseball games (not community baseball) Vacation is not excused, use your 4 days for vacation. Assuming that you're talking about summer conditioning, not 2-a-days, I don't agree with hard and fast rules like that. First of all we can't make it mandatory in our state but we wouldn't if we could. Once practice starts for real we'll be there and expect them to be there hopefully into December. I missed two weeks in Jne to work a camp and visit my parents. The boss is on vacation as we speak. In Bluto's original scenario, the kids going on the wedding trip/vacation, if it happened in early July, no problem with me. What if a kid's parents make him go to visit Grandma for two weeks? How about if Grandma's terminally ill? Am I going to bench our kicker because he misses weights to play in a rec soccer league? Heck, no. In this business there are enough fights to be had without going to look for them. Just my opinion.
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Post by miami5 on Jul 18, 2006 6:53:59 GMT -6
We also can not make training mandatory in our state. The kids no that if they don't show there chances of starting are going to be less. I also get every excuse in the book and some that are not in the book. One problem i have is that many of my players also play summer baseball, at all levels up till middle -end of July. they also practice every night if not playing. i try to get these kids in the weight room on off playing days, as for conditioning they are getting some. I have a hard time getting upset with my players being athletes. I'm glad that they are playing another sport and developing skills. I don't know how it is in your areas but many of my kids have to work also. it makes it very hard to get them in all at the same time. I even have kids who work summer camps and leave for 6 AM. I guess what I'm saying is that your dedicated ones will find a way. if you give them a inch they take the foot ( and some times more ) Miami5
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Post by sls on Jul 18, 2006 7:48:32 GMT -6
IF our kids miss more than 4 workouts, they are suspended for our first game. They are excused for varsity basketall games or varsity baseball games (not community baseball) Vacation is not excused, use your 4 days for vacation. Assuming that you're talking about summer conditioning, not 2-a-days, I don't agree with hard and fast rules like that. First of all we can't make it mandatory in our state but we wouldn't if we could. Once practice starts for real we'll be there and expect them to be there hopefully into December. I missed two weeks in Jne to work a camp and visit my parents. The boss is on vacation as we speak. In Bluto's original scenario, the kids going on the wedding trip/vacation, if it happened in early July, no problem with me. What if a kid's parents make him go to visit Grandma for two weeks? How about if Grandma's terminally ill? Am I going to bench our kicker because he misses weights to play in a rec soccer league? Heck, no. In this business there are enough fights to be had without going to look for them. Just my opinion. I am talking about summer workouts and we can make it mandatory. We have three weeks off with no workouts, the last week of may and the first 2 weeks of July and start 2-a-days on july 31st this year. Therefore between the 3 weeks I give off and the 4 missed practices they are allowede they have 4 weeks to do vacations, it has been this way for 3 years now and the parents know it. I do not hold camps against them. One of the things that I stress in parent's meeting (held in Feb. and August) is that I am the head coach and there is a difference between "fair and equal" if jimmy misses to go to the beach and johnny misses because grammy is in the hospital I am going to hold missed practice against jimmy and not johnny. Is this equal? no. Is it fair? the head coach says yes. In 3 years I have not had a problem with this and our summer conditioning attendence has went from 35%, to 69% to 80% this summer. Might not work for you, but has worked very well for us. We are a program with kids that if did not have clear rules, kids would take advantage of it. Before I was hired the summer was completely voluntary and they did nothing and were horrible.
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Post by gamedog on Jul 18, 2006 8:29:37 GMT -6
Now that changes things in my opinion. Three weeks off is plenty. I agree with the unannounced gut check days. Do you go M-F also? We give a week off at the beginning but only go M-T and they have to be at 90% or have extra running in two a days.
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Post by blb on Jul 18, 2006 8:42:06 GMT -6
Good point, gamedog. By that I mean how much conditioning we do during two-a-days is based on my evaluation of the team's conditioning level, based on summer attendance and fitness test performance.
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Post by sls on Jul 18, 2006 8:45:13 GMT -6
Now that changes things in my opinion. Three weeks off is plenty. I agree with the unannounced gut check days. Do you go M-F also? We give a week off at the beginning but only go M-T and they have to be at 90% or have extra running in two a days. We go Mon-Thurs.
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Post by phantom on Jul 18, 2006 8:47:16 GMT -6
That's why there's no one way to do things. Our situation is very different from blb's. We don't get out of school until mid-June and open the weight room the next week. It's natural that guys, including coaches, will miss some time. Let me also make it clear that we do not sit idly by if we think somebody's slacking off. We'll call theh, call their parents, and have players contact them. Your way works for you, our's works for us.
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Post by blb on Jul 18, 2006 8:56:43 GMT -6
Beginning July 1, 2007, our state is instituting a mandatory seven-day summer "dead" period when there is to be no open gyms, camps, or conditioning (including lifting).
Which seven days will be up to individual schools. Some may implement it the week immediately after school lets out; I suspect most will do it the week of July 4th, since so many families get away then anyway.
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Post by coachcb on Jul 18, 2006 8:57:11 GMT -6
With three weeks off, four freebie days are more than enough. If you have planned around other sports, than they have no excuse for missing workouts. Here's another suggestion- establish some brutal make-up sessions after normal workouts for those kids that go over their 4 days. Have them make up the training and time before 2-a-days start.
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Post by sls on Jul 18, 2006 8:59:14 GMT -6
With three weeks off, four freebie days are more than enough. If you have planned around other sports, than they have no excuse for missing workouts. Here's another suggestion- establish some brutal make-up sessions after normal workouts for those kids that go over their 4 days. Have them make up the training and time before 2-a-days start. We do this also, 1 make up session a week. Wednesday morning at 7:00am and one of my assistants that lives 2 minutes from the school runs the crap out of them.
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Post by groundchuck on Jul 18, 2006 9:07:27 GMT -6
Beginning July 1, 2007, our state is instituting a mandatory seven-day summer "dead" period when there is to be no open gyms, camps, or conditioning (including lifting). Which seven days will be up to individual schools. Some may implement it the week immediately after school lets out; I suspect most will do it the week of July 4th, since so many families get away then anyway. I don't think that is a bad idea. Allows kids to miss some time for family vacations or for just some lazy time without hurting anything. My question is what kind of support do you get from your admin when you tell kids they have to meet "X" number of days in the wt room. My old admin called me to task for using the phrase "I encourage you to lift 3x a week for the summer. If we want to be a winning program we need you to be there." He said that was undue influence. Obviously I got no support from him.
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