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Post by brophy on Oct 4, 2012 22:44:51 GMT -6
I don't think sour grapes is the right phrasing and I do think that it has more to do with a conflict of Saban's idealized view of what football is: a game where you physically dominate your opponent and force their submission. With that kind of mindset, it's easy to see why someone would be bothered by teams who want to win through 'finesse' and what appears to be unconventional strategies. A fair comparison would be the US being {censored} that the VC wouldn't fight them the way that they wanted. For those who are keeping score at home, I did just make a direct comparison between spread coaches and the Viet Cong. I dunno....its maybe more like Kung-Fu vs Jeet kune do or the first UFC fight because when an offense goes no-huddle it isn't for 1 or 2 plays, it will be for 3 or 4 series of sustained drives. When an offense does this (yeah, La Tech has gotten REALLY good at this strategy) defenses simply lose a war of attrition and break. It has nothing do with coverages, blitzes, fronts.....the pieces of the defense all bust. When the offense gains this kind of leverage it is as nasty smashmouth as a Tim Murphy double-wing wedge Saban's issue (or dismissal) may have more to do with coaching control of what takes place on the field. The defense has very little time to adjust and adapt (severing the tie between the player and coordinator/coaches)
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Post by Chris Clement on Oct 4, 2012 22:53:42 GMT -6
Well, we survived the first 70 years of the game without coaches micro-managing the players on the field.
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Post by mariner42 on Oct 5, 2012 0:15:46 GMT -6
When an offense does this (yeah, La Tech has gotten REALLY good at this strategy) defenses simply lose a war of attrition and break. It has nothing do with coverages, blitzes, fronts.....the pieces of the defense all bust. When the offense gains this kind of leverage it is as nasty smashmouth as a Tim Murphy double-wing wedge Absolutely, that's one of the reasons why I really dig being up tempo (which isn't exclusive to no-huddle, my alma mater runs an up tempo Wing-T that's pretty brutal). Last year we would award the whole offense with helmet stickers if we made our opponents cramp during the game and our 4th quarter run game was SCARY EFFICIENT when we were humming. I could definitely see Saban's issue being his loss of control as a coach, I think that's definitely a strong notion. It kind of puts you into the same situation as the DW in that if you haven't gotten your strategy and prep in by gametime, there's not much you're going to be able to do after the kickoff.
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Post by John Knight on Oct 5, 2012 6:49:53 GMT -6
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Post by fantom on Oct 5, 2012 7:15:37 GMT -6
Saw this story on ESPN last night. Alabama is averaging 65 plays a game, while Texas Tech (I think) is averaging 89. (or something close to those numbers). I would like to see a stat on how many plays a team like TT or Oregon runs when playing against a team like Alabama or a normal old school style offense. A game like this? scores.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=310102483
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Post by veerbone on Oct 5, 2012 7:49:52 GMT -6
To answer Saban's question, NO...this is not what I want football to be.
But the best way to stop the trend is to force 3 and outs. Works every time.
3 plays 9 seconds, punt. Repeat as necessary to slow opponent to a crawl.
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Post by brophy on Oct 5, 2012 8:03:05 GMT -6
just as perspective on this, I remember facing no-huddle/quick-snap SPLIT BACK VEER teams in the mid-80s as a HS player and it essentially had the same effect (nothing new).
I don't know if it is so much going no-huddle that is the issue (though it is part), but the efficiency that is what is creating the scoring explosions that no-huddle represents. Its difficult to be efficient in a few plays and be successful unless you create an equalizer (rapid tempo) to prevent defenses from teeing off on you (knowing what you are doing).
Offenses can go no-huddle at their own risk. The issue becomes "can defenses adapt"? Can you switch your defense to be content with forcing 12-16 play drives?
Why try to slug it out with George Foreman and open yourself for immediate knockout? Why not adapt and make him last eight rounds?
No-huddle OFFENSE is "cool" and exciting, but it ultimately is very basic at its core. What I find more interesting is the DEFENSES that adapt to the no-huddle, where you have to load up your players on learning football rather than setting up the pieces on each play. Thats where the true coaching/football is taking place.
I ENJOY no-huddle offense...maybe more so because it doesn't allow for TV timeouts or advertising BS but also because it usually is the product of good fundamental football (focused catches, hustle, quick reads). Also, when an offense is proficient in it, they have a killer instinct you don't see in many other teams where they aggressively look to sweep the leg / bury their opponent in points.
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Post by coachcb on Oct 5, 2012 8:11:55 GMT -6
I don't know if it is so much going no-huddle that is the issue (though it is part), but the efficiency that is what is creating the scoring explosions that no-huddle represents. Its difficult to be efficient in a few plays and be successful unless you create an equalizer (rapid tempo) to prevent defenses from teeing off on you (knowing what you are doing). Offenses can go no-huddle at their own risk. The issue becomes "can defenses adapt"? Can you switch your defense to be content with forcing 12-16 play drives? Exactly, there is a flip-side to the coin here. Would a DC rather spend the week preparing for a more complex offensive system or just focus on the handful of plays a no-huddle, up-tempo team throws at you? You just need to make sure that you've got flexible defensive personnel in the game and develop a reasonable system of substitution. They're not running anything special so there's no reason for the defense to run anything complicated either. Go out, line up and play defense. The offense is moving at the same clip so it's the staff's fault if their defensive personnel are gassed. Oh and on a side note, I'm not a no-huddle coach and I don't care to watch college games that turn into shootouts.
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Post by John Knight on Oct 5, 2012 8:22:21 GMT -6
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Post by spartan on Oct 5, 2012 10:19:03 GMT -6
Isn't that what time outs are for? Also if your player is gassed and can't line up I would instruct my guys to take a knee. I am sure Saban knows all these
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Post by casec11 on Oct 5, 2012 11:27:28 GMT -6
Does some of his view on this have to do with the no huddle offense lining up then getting a call from the coaches who get a call from above because they see how the D is lined up? This is kind of taking the thinking game away from the players on O but the players on D have to be coached up on how to react.
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Post by jhanawa on Oct 5, 2012 11:43:23 GMT -6
Funny that he complains about potential 18 play drives......all he has to do is have his defense make them go 3 and out, then his defense is on the field less time then they would be against a team that huddles.....IMO what it is really is not having the ability to sub personnel (nickle/dime/short yardage packages) if the offense doesn't....well, tough chit, he's a big boy, he can learn to deal with it. Would all the "purists" be ok with the fast pace if it was no huddle double tight wishbone or Wing T?
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Post by fantom on Oct 5, 2012 12:13:07 GMT -6
Funny that he complains about potential 18 play drives......all he has to do is have his defense make them go 3 and out, then his defense is on the field less time then they would be against a team that huddles.....IMO what it is really is not having the ability to sub personnel (nickle/dime/short yardage packages) if the offense doesn't....well, tough chit, he's a big boy, he can learn to deal with it. Would all the "purists" be ok with the fast pace if it was no huddle double tight wishbone or Wing T? No. To me a 3-0 game is boring and so is a 70-64 game.
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Post by silkyice on Oct 5, 2012 12:31:37 GMT -6
Funny that he complains about potential 18 play drives......all he has to do is have his defense make them go 3 and out, then his defense is on the field less time then they would be against a team that huddles.....IMO what it is really is not having the ability to sub personnel (nickle/dime/short yardage packages) if the offense doesn't....well, tough chit, he's a big boy, he can learn to deal with it. Would all the "purists" be ok with the fast pace if it was no huddle double tight wishbone or Wing T? I am an Auburn fan. But all this talk about Saban has to be a big boy and toughen up and deal with it, really? Umm, 3 national championships and headed for a 4th. Bama played poorly and gave up 14 to a super fast no huddle team. I think he knows how to deal with it. The difference isn't that somebody came up with a great new idea or whatever. The difference is the rules changed on how quickly the ball is ready for play. I believe that is what he commenting on. He also is just posing a question. I for one like the high pace, but I do feel that it has swung too far to the offense. Like I said in an earlier post - there just needs to be balance. Refs taking forever to spot is not right and I am not sure if refs spot immediately is right either. It becomes ultimate frisbee then.
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Post by spreadattack on Oct 6, 2012 8:38:58 GMT -6
A few unconnected thoughts:
1. As a football fan, I like variety. Shootouts are fun, as is LSU-Alabama. Bad defense and bad offense aren't so fun to watch (which makes 3-2 or 70-63 not that enjoyable, but the stuff inbetween pretty fun), but skill, talent, ingenuity and variety are what makes football fun.
2. College needs to fix its clock rules. The one thing the NFL does a better job is it has simple clock rules. Get rid of the clock stopping until the ball is set on a first down is a big one. College clock rules are so complicated, it's a big mess. That is a big reason for college games being these 5 hour affairs. That WVU-Baylor game had like 185 plays in it -- I like more plays but that's a pretty insane figure when an NFL game is around 100.
3. As someone said above, Saban knows these things go in cycles. Right now these no-huddle spread offenses are in vogue. I obviously am pretty clued in on that stuff. But eventually defenses are going to hit these things like a ton of bricks and the game is going to do a 180. The stuff brophy is talking about with no-huddle *defenses*, built on simplicity and flexibility, may be a big part of the key. The offensive evolutions right now are only partially scheme, but also about communication, tempo, etc. Defenses will have to match that with both scheme and the same responses.
4. I can't speculate why Saban said that. I wouldn't read too much into it. One, he has a vested interest in his style of football -- and look he's out recruiting for it. And second he's a long-time defensive coach. I don't think any of us want our defensive coaches saying "how excited" they are to watch a 70-63 shootout with 1,500 yards of offense.
5. To reiterate the point about the game going in phases, last weekend was the second highest scoring weekend of college football ever. The highest scoring weekend? 1937.
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