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Post by jgordon1 on Feb 6, 2012 9:11:25 GMT -6
In GENERAL, I thought the tackling in that game was much better than the trash I generally see when I watch pro games
Is having too many men on the field a strategy now in certain situations?
How can a pro team in the super bowl not get a play off w/in the time allotment?
Your thoughts..comments
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Post by morris on Feb 6, 2012 9:20:02 GMT -6
Smart Football had an article about Buddy Ryan's "Polish Defense" which used too many men on purpose. I'm not sure if the too many men was by design but I was very surprised it was an issue for the Pats considered how well they are coached. It some ways this was the sloppiest I think I have ever seen the Pats in a SB
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Post by spos21ram on Feb 6, 2012 9:58:59 GMT -6
I still don't understand why people are saying using 12 men on defense would be a strategy. The defense gains absolutely nothing by doing it. If they get a sack, an INT, an incompletion, it all gets negated and if the offense gains more than 5 yards they just decline the penalty. The defense gains nothing.
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Post by blb on Feb 6, 2012 10:01:35 GMT -6
I still don't understand why people are saying using 12 men on defense would be a strategy. The defense gains absolutely nothing by doing it. If they get a sack, an INT, an incompletion, it all gets negated and if the offense gains mroe than 5 yards they just decline the penalty. The defense gains nothing. In the last minute of the half the Defense (Giants) gained six seconds run off the clock which was much more important than the yardage allowed or the down.
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Post by spos21ram on Feb 6, 2012 10:03:21 GMT -6
I still don't understand why people are saying using 12 men on defense would be a strategy. The defense gains absolutely nothing by doing it. If they get a sack, an INT, an incompletion, it all gets negated and if the offense gains mroe than 5 yards they just decline the penalty. The defense gains nothing. In the last minute of the half the Defense (Giants) gained six seconds run off the clock which was much more important than the yardage allowed or the down. They didn't gain anything. The Patriots still were able to run the play. If they completed the pass would you say they lossed 6 seconds? If there was 11 on D the time would still have run down 6 seconds.
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Post by jgordon1 on Feb 6, 2012 10:05:51 GMT -6
I still don't understand why people are saying using 12 men on defense would be a strategy. The defense gains absolutely nothing by doing it. If they get a sack, an INT, an incompletion, it all gets negated and if the offense gains mroe than 5 yards they just decline the penalty. The defense gains nothing. In the last minute of the half the Defense (Giants) gained six seconds run off the clock which was much more important than the yardage allowed or the down. I was thinking the same thing but wasn't sure
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Post by blb on Feb 6, 2012 10:08:27 GMT -6
If the Patriots can score against 12 guys more power to them.
The Defense gained having to play Defense for only nine more seconds (two snaps). Unfortunately they didn't cover Danny Woodhead.
You're not arguing with me, dude - you're arguing with Tom Coughlin et al.
I suppose you're going to tell Belichick he shouldn't' have let Giants score with 57 seconds left, too - take a chance on a missed FG.
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Post by spos21ram on Feb 6, 2012 10:15:06 GMT -6
I'm not arguing. I'll change by wording. I don't think the Giants gained an ADVANTAGE on that penalty.
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Post by Chris Clement on Feb 6, 2012 10:18:20 GMT -6
On to something important:
1. Justin Tuck has an awesome sack celebration
2. Chris Canty has the best facemask in the league (I know Tuck has the same one, but the visor makes the difference. My wife says he looks like a "scary robot."
3. That beard makes Tuck look like a Sephardic Jew.
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Post by spos21ram on Feb 6, 2012 10:20:35 GMT -6
Tuck looks like Shredder from Ninja Turtles. Cruz is very entertaining too. Love his first down celebrations and of course his TD salsa dance.
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Post by jgordon1 on Feb 6, 2012 10:24:20 GMT -6
so let me get this straight, If there are minimal seconds left in a half and they are in automatic field goal position (not always a given in hs) and there is a strong chance they will score, it is to your advantge to try and sneak and extra player out there and have the possibility of them missing a fg..Why not put 2 extra players? 3?
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Post by spos21ram on Feb 6, 2012 10:27:58 GMT -6
so let me get this straight, If there are minimal seconds left in a half and they are in automatic field goal position (not always a given in hs) and there is a strong chance they will score, it is to your advantge to try and sneak and extra player out there and have the possibility of them missing a fg..Why not put 2 extra players? 3? In that case their woould be an untimed down and the offense would be able to kick the FG from 5 yards closer.
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Post by blb on Feb 6, 2012 10:30:32 GMT -6
According to Mike Golic on ESPN Radio this AM when he was playing for Eagles Buddy Ryan once put 15 guys on field Defensively on purpose to run time down (referenced in an earlier post by morris).
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Post by jgordon1 on Feb 6, 2012 10:33:15 GMT -6
so let me get this straight, If there are minimal seconds left in a half and they are in automatic field goal position (not always a given in hs) and there is a strong chance they will score, it is to your advantge to try and sneak and extra player out there and have the possibility of them missing a fg..Why not put 2 extra players? 3? In that case their woould be an untimed down and the offense would be able to kick the FG from 5 yards closer. If they are on the 4 yard line w/ 12 seconds left in the 1/2......lets just say they have 2 shots to score..on the first play you put in 12 men and stop them...now there are 6 seconds left..they must decide whether to take a fg or go for a td...they FG was automatic anyway the TD not so much....I think I would try that
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Post by spos21ram on Feb 6, 2012 10:35:24 GMT -6
You'd have to be real sneaky about it because if the ref realizes this before the snap then the play is whistled dead right there at the snap. Then you look like an idiot/cheater as a coach.
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Post by jgordon1 on Feb 6, 2012 10:39:11 GMT -6
You'd have to be real sneaky about it because if the ref realizes this before the snap then the play is whistled dead right there before the snap. Then you look like an idiot/cheater as a coach. You know I was thinking about the ethics of the thing but how is it different than committing a foul on purpose in basketball..You are deliberatly breaking a rule to gain an advantage...as far as being sneaky the refs around here aren't that great..I probably would call timeout gatther my team on the sideline and have a player walk in..I have also lost a couple of games because refs couldn't tell if a TE was covered up in unbalanced and went down the field and scored
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Post by blb on Feb 6, 2012 10:40:40 GMT -6
You'd have to be real sneaky about it because if the ref realizes this before the snap then the play is whistled dead right there at the snap. Then you look like an idiot/cheater as a coach. Can't be with rule as written now. Penalty is "Illegal Participation" meaning they have to take part in the play, not just be on the field even at snap. Different than Offense having too many players in the huddle.
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Post by spos21ram on Feb 6, 2012 10:40:42 GMT -6
You'd have to be real sneaky about it because if the ref realizes this before the snap then the play is whistled dead right there before the snap. Then you look like an idiot/cheater as a coach. You know I was thinking about the ethics of the thing but how is it different than committing a foul on purpose in basketball..You are deliberatly breaking a rule to gain an advantage...as far as being sneaky the refs around here aren't that great..I probably would call timeout gatther my team on the sideline and have a player walk in..I have also lost a couple of games because refs couldn't tell if a TE was covered up in unbalanced and went down the field and scored It would be a tough decision. What happens if you put 12 on defense and blocked the FG, sacked the QB, or picked off the pass? Then it would have backfired.
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Post by mholst40 on Feb 6, 2012 10:42:03 GMT -6
In that case their woould be an untimed down and the offense would be able to kick the FG from 5 yards closer. If they are on the 4 yard line w/ 12 seconds left in the 1/2......lets just say they have 2 shots to score..on the first play you put in 12 men and stop them...now there are 6 seconds left..they must decide whether to take a fg or go for a td...they FG was automatic anyway the TD not so much....I think I would try that The logic behind the Ryan "Polish" defense is that the time is more important than the yardage. This is not a last play scenarior because the offense will get another shot with an untimed down since a game/half can't end on a defensive penalty. The scenario you described above would be the perfect one to use it in. Who cares if they get five yards because you had too many men on defense? They will only have one shot left at the end zone. If the NFL started seeing a ton of this, I'm sure they would implement a rule where the clock reverts back to the prior down if the penalty is accepted. The Ryans just played on a loophole in the rule book.
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Post by spreadattack on Feb 6, 2012 10:45:34 GMT -6
Buddy Ryan's rationale for the extra defenders: smartfootball.com/defense/buddy-ryans-polish-goalline-tacticThat's right above, time is more important than yards. Idea is to cut them down to as few plays as possible and then stop them on the one trial. It's a smart idea in the sense that a team has a better chance of scoring in three chances than they do in one, even if they are slightly closer in that one chance. I'm also surprised that in the NFL an illegal participation penalty is only 5 yards. If it was 15 that might make a bigger difference.
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Post by blb on Feb 6, 2012 10:45:45 GMT -6
You don't put 12+ defenders on the field on last play because of Untimed Down possibility.
You put them out there to get to last snap. If you get Offense to have to kick FG instead of scoring TD you've accomplished something. And if they're behind by 4+ and they go for it on last play (would have to obviously at end of game) - you just have to stop them once.
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Post by wingtol on Feb 6, 2012 10:48:34 GMT -6
I am sure in the NFL they catch it more than in HS, but I have seen situations where we have had 12 on the field by accident and it was never flagged. Now if you do it trying to get the penalty and it's not called then I guess you look like a cheater LOL
We were in a state quarter final game down by 1 with 1:30 to go in the game, other team was on our 10, basically game over if they guy takes a knee. Told our kids to let them score if they ran a play to get the ball back, which they did since I am sure it's a lot harder to tell a HS kid not to score if he sees a giant hole. We then returned the KO for a TD got the 2 pt to tie and won in OT.
Funny to see situations in the Super Bowl that you deal with in HS ball.
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Post by spreadattack on Feb 6, 2012 10:53:39 GMT -6
You know I was thinking about the ethics of the thing but how is it different than committing a foul on purpose in basketball..You are deliberatly breaking a rule to gain an advantage...as far as being sneaky the refs around here aren't that great..I probably would call timeout gatther my team on the sideline and have a player walk in..I have also lost a couple of games because refs couldn't tell if a TE was covered up in unbalanced and went down the field and scored It would be a tough decision. What happens if you put 12 on defense and blocked the FG, sacked the QB, or picked off the pass? Then it would have backfired. I hear you on that, but that's the wrong way to think about it. Your job as a coach is just to maximize your chance of winning/success on a given play ex ante, i.e. before the play. The Polish Goalline idea *should* reduce that success by limiting the number of shots the offense gets at winning. It's true that on any given play there is a chance you do something great on defense, like they have a 40% chance of scoring and there's a 5% chance you get a big sack or a turnover, but the fact that the 5% is what happens doesn't make the decision wrong. Again, all you can really do is maximize your chances ahead of time and hope it works out for the best. Anything else is hindsight bias. That said, if we sent 13 guys out and they fumbled the snap and we fell on it and had to give the ball back, I'd feel kind of stupid too.
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Post by jgordon1 on Feb 6, 2012 10:54:47 GMT -6
Buddy Ryan's rationale for the extra defenders: smartfootball.com/defense/buddy-ryans-polish-goalline-tacticThat's right above, time is more important than yards. Idea is to cut them down to as few plays as possible and then stop them on the one trial. It's a smart idea in the sense that a team has a better chance of scoring in three chances than they do in one, even if they are slightly closer in that one chance. I'm also surprised that in the NFL an illegal participation penalty is only 5 yards. If it was 15 that might make a bigger difference. even if they did, after a certain point..its only 1/2 the distance..the most fitting penalty would be the yards AND the time
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Post by mholst40 on Feb 6, 2012 12:20:47 GMT -6
I understand their are ethical considerations, but at the same time, I have NEVER seen a coach decline an obvious penalty that wasn't!
If the rules allow it, I feel fine using it. That's not to say I would ever use this strategy, but it is interesting.
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Post by blb on Feb 6, 2012 12:40:38 GMT -6
Reminds me of few years ago when NCAA changed rule to start play clock when ball was kicked on Kick off (instead of when caught-start of run back) and Bret Bielema (Wisconsin) had a guy go Offside each time trying to run out time (in a half as I recall).
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Post by Chris Clement on Feb 6, 2012 13:07:45 GMT -6
And if you could kick the ball out of the end zone, you could run off infinite time! What a stupid rule, with such a transparent logic behind it.
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Post by airman on Feb 7, 2012 17:27:46 GMT -6
Reminds me of few years ago when NCAA changed rule to start play clock when ball was kicked on Kick off (instead of when caught-start of run back) and Bret Bielema (Wisconsin) had a guy go Offside each time trying to run out time (in a half as I recall). it was against the late joe paterno and joe paterno was not very happy about how the rule was used in this way.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 7, 2012 19:19:00 GMT -6
What I think is more interesting is how the Patriots bungled letting the Giants score. Made NO sense to stop them, call time out..and THEN let them score. Should have let them score on first down..not second down.
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Post by coachbdud on Feb 7, 2012 19:35:26 GMT -6
I still don't understand why people are saying using 12 men on defense would be a strategy. The defense gains absolutely nothing by doing it. If they get a sack, an INT, an incompletion, it all gets negated and if the offense gains more than 5 yards they just decline the penalty. The defense gains nothing. At that point the yardage wasnt huge because they were so far out... but the time on the clock was important... so if because you had 12 or 13 or whatever on the field, you knew you could likely force an incompletion, waste 7 seconds of clock time and they only get 5 yards... youd be happy trading off 5 yards for 7 seconds with that little time left is huge
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