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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 2, 2012 13:08:09 GMT -6
Wondering how many of you grade each play of a performance..be it a "+/-" system, a point based system etc. If you DO, how do you handle grading a player when he faces a stud. For example, if Chris, your LT took the right steps, kept good pad level, attacked the correct assignment and effectively blocked his opponent in week 1... he gets a "plus" or he gets 4 points, or whatever. However, week 2, LSU's top DL commit is lined up over him. This week, he takes the right steps, keeps good pad level, attacks the correct assignment and gets blown 2 yards backwards.
Or the quick 3 step slant I just saw in the outback bowl. Press coverage, DB right on the WR's hip, qb puts the ball right in the window and WR makes a great catch with the DB raking his arms just as the ball gets there. Other than STONING the release, there wasn't much more that the DB could do. If the WR doesn't keep possession, the DB would be given a "+" or 3 or 4 points or whatever... but since the WR DID manage to hold the ball...does the DB get a minus?
The above, combined with lack of true depth at the H.S level is one of the reasons I went away from grading.
Just looking for some other perspectives.
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Post by realdawg on Jan 2, 2012 14:51:43 GMT -6
Basically in that situation I tend to be more lenient. I give. Plus or minus each play plus give constructive feedback for our OL. So when playing a stud they get the same constructive feedback they would get every play but do not have to do as much to get a plus. Also, the better my player the more I expect him to do to get a plus. Grading is fair but not necessarily equal
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Post by lochness on Jan 2, 2012 15:00:38 GMT -6
Ha! This is why we don't grade players.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 2, 2012 15:06:40 GMT -6
Grading is fair but not necessarily equal I don't understand this at all. Why do it then if it isn't standardized? I am all for feedback, but don't see the reason to spend ANY precious time giving my SR. all district tackle a grade of 80 and my soph kid who played due to injury an 80...unless they both played the same.
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Post by hamerhead on Jan 2, 2012 15:24:58 GMT -6
You have the same set of expectations for those two kids?
The sole purpose of grading film in my mind is to determine areas that need improvement and to put together a gameplan on how to improve in those areas. Sometimes I wonder why are grades in our classrooms aren't done the same way, by the way. (Plug, Ken O' Connor's "15 Fixes for Broken Grades" will change your classroom forever if you're a teacher).
The only other viable reason to grade at all in my mind is if I'm trying to evaluate performance against a teammate, ie, decide which one is better and should be playing more. In my case however, I usually already know.
To the OP, in the rare event that I actually try and quantify a performance by attatching a grade, I do it on a +/- scale and give three scores. 1) Assignment 2) Technique 3) Did you get the job done?
The first two help me identify problem areas that need worked on. The third gives me a "overall" score of sorts, if I want/need it. In that case, stud or not, you didn't get the job done, sorry your grade sucks this week. But he'd still grade out high in the first two categories probably.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 2, 2012 15:36:26 GMT -6
I've never understood the need for "grading".
At the end of every game you get a grade on the scoreboard.
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Post by realdawg on Jan 2, 2012 15:44:34 GMT -6
You don't expect more out of your Senior all district tackle than you do your 150 lb sophomore guard? Of course you do. So basically what I am saying is that if my lesser players get the job done they get a plus and then get constructive feed back on technique issues. My Sr all district tackle has to get the job done and use proper technique to get a plus. He would still get the same constructive feed back. A missed assignment is a negative all the way around. I do this for a couple reasons. 1) build confidence in my younger kids that they can play. 2). Hold my older guys more accountable for what they should have learned and improvements they should have made and 3) because I believe to whom more is given more is expected.
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Post by coachbb on Jan 2, 2012 15:46:04 GMT -6
I've never understood the need for "grading". At the end of every game you get a grade on the scoreboard. 1. You can find out which players are performing better than others; this can let you know if you need to make a change at a position. 2. You can communicate with the players about their overall performance. This gives you something more specific than "good game" or "bad game."
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Post by fantom on Jan 2, 2012 15:49:49 GMT -6
You don't expect more out of your Senior all district tackle than you do your 150 lb sophomore guard? Either he blocks the guy or he doesn't.
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Post by realdawg on Jan 2, 2012 15:52:53 GMT -6
True. Maybe we just try to complicate things sometimes
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Post by lochness on Jan 2, 2012 17:12:24 GMT -6
True. Maybe we just try to complicate things sometimes Holy $hi+, do you really think so...?
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Post by fballcoachg on Jan 2, 2012 17:39:20 GMT -6
I was never huge on grading however this year I did it but the major thing was giving them 3 things to work on/need improvement, 3 things they did well. This was the most helpful aspect.
As for the original question, different coaches on our staff did their positions different ways but each play had 2 criteria for the play so if they did their assignment like they were coached but got blown up by a far superior athlete then they would break even.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 2, 2012 17:48:29 GMT -6
I've never understood the need for "grading". At the end of every game you get a grade on the scoreboard. 1. You can find out which players are performing better than others; this can let you know if you need to make a change at a position. True.. it does give you some numerical data from which you can make decisions. But, (at the H.S level especially) are you really that deep and competitive that this step is necessary? Do you need the specific data to show this as opposed to just practice reps and game reps? Can't you do exactly this WITHOUT grading each and every play? You can watch and evaluate..but do you need to give +/- or point grades for each player on each play for this?
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Post by spos21ram on Jan 2, 2012 17:52:17 GMT -6
We evaluate, but don't grade or use points. Doesn't take a grading system to determine whether a player did well or not.
He either screwd up, was lazy, used poor technique, etc...or he did a good job.
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Post by tog on Jan 2, 2012 18:40:02 GMT -6
0=didn't know what he was doing 1=knew the play--didn't execute for whatever reason----this applies against outmatched people 2=got it done 3=got it done and extra
take number of plays multiply by 2 then divide it to get an avg
sometimes a .5 in there to make it if it is iffy
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 2, 2012 18:59:31 GMT -6
0=didn't know what he was doing 1=knew the play--didn't execute for whatever reason----this applies against outmatched people 2=got it done 3=got it done and extra take number of plays multiply by 2 then divide it to get an avg sometimes a .5 in there to make it if it is iffy What do you feel the advantage of doing this is coach? Particularly at the HS level when there is usually clear cut levels of ability.
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Post by wingtol on Jan 2, 2012 19:35:06 GMT -6
I've never understood the need for "grading". At the end of every game you get a grade on the scoreboard. 1. You can find out which players are performing better than others; this can let you know if you need to make a change at a position. 2. You can communicate with the players about their overall performance. This gives you something more specific than "good game" or "bad game." 1. Watch film with coaches 2. Watch film with team We feel that pretty much eliminates the need for grading.
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Post by tog on Jan 2, 2012 19:35:11 GMT -6
let me preface this by saying ----our use of grading has been on again off again over the years based on the hc's philosophy/staff available to do it or not
right now we are in the we use it camp
it lets me know if they know what they are doing
it lets me know if they are not getting things done in some technique way---(another area where they would get a 1) ---we tag the specific tech issues and then go back through when grading to make sure those are the areas we concentrate on the next week
it lets me know who is giving extra effort----I look at that like a defensive coach--
even with giant levels of talent disparity--with ncaa rules and being able to cut we teach our kids to be able to get a 2 every play----at least the OL should----there may be times out on the edge force player or wr blocking that they are simply outmatched and can't even get to the guy to block him---but the measurement of performance is something we believe in even then---did they get it done?
it is something we post for the kids to see it is something the kids take pride in
"yeah, I played against the guy going to A+M and I graded out an 80%" Have heard this before from a kid that talent wise had no business doing such, but whatever it takes attitude and using the tools in his toolkit that we gave him got the job done for the most part.
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Post by coachwilliams2 on Jan 2, 2012 19:43:48 GMT -6
We grade to hold kids accountable. We can show them if they were lazy, played well, or not well every week. We can give them more than just "you didn't play well so you are not starting this week" we can SHOW them, play by play, with a grade and commentary.
Plus it holds coaches accountable to really watch each player every play. I can't tell you how many times I thought a kid played horrible until I saw the film and got his grade. I have also thought a player played well until I saw the film and the grade.
Biggest thing is having kids tell you after the game how good they played, until they see the grade or vice versa.
JMO
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Post by fballcoachg on Jan 2, 2012 19:44:11 GMT -6
We evaluate, but don't grade or use points. Doesn't take a grading system to determine whether a player did well or not. He either screwd up, was lazy, used poor technique, etc...or he did a good job. Thats what I always thought but the HCs point was that there may be a kid that isn't doing so hot all night but makes a few plays and that's what you remember, or even when you watch film, you may remember something different then what actually happened. You may have a snap shot of the night as opposed to a true representation of what happened. It is rare that this happens but if you are watching and breaking down your own film it makes it a lot easier to document. I realize you can do this without grading but it gives you something solid, which if you have some players that are close gives you data and justification for who you are playing and makes sure you are rewarding players for their actual performance. It sounds like this is what you guys do but I know we had some coaches who weren't grading and had a very schewed idea of who was doing what (not so sure they were actually breaking down the film as they should though either). To each his own, but that was the justification given to us and I see the point to it. Also, if you have the luxury of breaking down the film by position coaches it actually isn't that time consuming.
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Post by 19delta on Jan 2, 2012 20:20:07 GMT -6
When I was still a head coach, the only thing we graded was "loafs"...plays in which kids did not hustle.
What's a loaf? I'm not really sure but you will know it when you see it!
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Post by Chris Clement on Jan 2, 2012 20:30:41 GMT -6
I have graded on two criteria: doing it right and getting it done. that way an outclassed player can grade for doing it right and I can see if an athletically superior player is leaning on his natural advantage. Mostly I grade as a way of quantifying performance and comparing it to my gut.
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kw
Freshmen Member
Posts: 87
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Post by kw on Jan 2, 2012 23:38:02 GMT -6
I grade my guys. I grade their technique, production, and finish on every play. I have three grade sheets and an offensive line breakdown sheet. The first is an individual offensive line grade sheet (each lineman will get a grade sheet) and the second two are an overall composite grade sheets on individual and unit performances, which is posted in the team room. Finally I give them an offensive line breakdown sheet, which consists of what they did well and what we need to work on. The offensive line grade sheet is an individual grade sheet. I grade accordingly: +, -, S, I grade their technique on every play: approach (footwork), contact, and finish as well as thier production and finish. I list the play the grade (+, -, S) and comments (the description of what needs to be corrected) so when we watch the game film as a unit each player has their grade sheet with the comments (correctable mistakes). Goal is to have each player grade out at 85%. I also have an offensive line composite grade sheet, which includes each individual lineman’s overall game (technique, production, and finish) percentages. It is than broken down into individual run game percentages, individual pass game percentages, and finally a unit percentage, which is posted in the team room. It is broken down by individual percentages and a unit percentage in the run and pass game. Each lineman will have an overall percentages on performance in the run and pass game and then a unit percentages on performance in the run and pass game. Also listed are CE’S= (CRITICAL ERRORS), SACKS, QB HURRIES, LOAFS, PENALTIES, PANCAKES, SECONDARY ASSIGNMENTS, ETC.. I will also give them an offensive line breakdown sheet. Here is a key: RAW TOTAL = Overall Performance (Run and Pass) RUN TOTAL = Run Game Performance PASS TOTAL = Pass Game Performance T% = Technique Percentage P% = Production Percentage F% = Finish Percentage TP = Total Plays CE = Critical Error HIT = QB Hit HUR = QB Hurry SCK = Sack PEN = Penalty PK = Pancake BB = Big Block TB = Touch Down Block SA = Secondary Assignment - = Non Execution + = Outstanding play; executed his assignment and dominated his opponent. S = Execution Examples of two grading sheets. To get the most out of the grading sheets, make sure to click the tabs at the bottom of the Microsoft Excel documents. footballcoachdaily.com/2011/08/02/offensive-line-grading-sheets-downloads/Ken Wilmesherr
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tkeith
Probationary Member
Posts: 11
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Post by tkeith on Jan 3, 2012 9:34:13 GMT -6
When I was still a head coach, the only thing we graded was "loafs"...plays in which kids did not hustle. What's a loaf? I'm not really sure but you will know it when you see it! coach, what kind of grading system did you implement on the "Loaf"? I have been looking all over on Rod Marinelli's system, and I cant find it.
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Post by coachorr on Jan 3, 2012 11:28:47 GMT -6
If you don't measure it, it doesn't matter. BUt then again, I don't grade film either, we have accountability through watching film with players and staff.
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Post by coachcb on Jan 3, 2012 11:44:12 GMT -6
This is why we grade for execution and fundamentals, not necessarily on the outcome of the play. You're grading to see if the kid knows the scheme and can execute. But, sometimes that doesn't get the job done. A kid will only get a minus from us if he's not doing what he's been taught or he's being lazy. Now, if you've got a kid that's executing but getting beat every week, it's time to find a new player. However, in my experience, that's rarely been the case.
It may sound bass-akwards but I get more upset at the opposite case; the kid that doesn't pay attention to fundamentals, screws up all game but is athletic enough to make play after play. Our Sam LB was like that this year; I can't tell you how many times that kid ran right through the inside shoulder of blocks, lost the edge but still managed to drop the ball carrier for a loss. That's harder for me to grade because you don't want to give him a "-" because he made a good play.
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kw
Freshmen Member
Posts: 87
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Post by kw on Jan 3, 2012 12:16:04 GMT -6
My philosophy on grading is that it gives your players feedback on individual production, position production and unit production on how they performed. Also, it determines if they understand the techniques being taught as well as their blocking responsibilities vs. that weeks opponent. Most importantly it helps me to make corrections and what needs to be emphasized to play the position properly. Like I stated I grade for three areas on each play: technique, production, and finish. Technique: are they using and executing the proper technique. Production: sacks, penalties, mental mistakes, critical errors, etc. Finally are they finishing their blocks or are they taking tickets. We get an inter-cut so it is great so I get the sideline cut and inzone cut. We also use Hudl so we will watch the game film as a unit and they will also watch it on their own with their grade sheet. Kids are visual learners and I believe it is important to not to only study your opponent but to also study yourself.
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Post by fantom on Jan 3, 2012 12:23:15 GMT -6
To me the question isn't whether it's better to grade each player. In a perfect world of course it would be. The question is whether it's worth the time that it takes.
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Post by calkayne on Jan 3, 2012 12:30:07 GMT -6
I grade and hand out the grade sheet to each player in my unit for the following reason:
It makes me as a Coach professionally accountable without emotion. It shows the coach what the player "gets" and "doesnt get", allowing the coach to target specific fundamentals.
It allows the Coach to to show the player exactly what they need to work on. For some players this is a great teaching tool.
The Grading sheet will allow the players to compare their "scores" and gives impetus to each other to be accountable for getting better.
The Grading Cirteria I use:
Alignment Read Production (Play to - Play Away) Execution Playmaker
The score system is a simple 1 or 0.
This ensures that all players will receive a score at the end of the day. The only penalising factor is their own Hustle and the only bonus factor is their Hustle.
I have never graded a Game, only practices. But in the OP case, the player would still have gained his relevant points. I am grading him not his opponent.
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Post by blb on Jan 3, 2012 12:30:28 GMT -6
To me the question isn't whether it's better to grade each player. In a perfect world of course it would be. The question is whether it's worth the time that it takes. I decided it wasn't. They're all we've got. Can't make trades or check the waiver wire. Coach hard on practice field to improve areas of weakness-correct assignment errors. If we've been playing the wrong kid, that's a coaching error - fix it. Either way you can see it on film without doing the mathematical busy work of assigning them a largely arbitrary "grade" for each play.
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