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Post by coachmoore42 on Feb 9, 2012 2:19:38 GMT -6
I agree with the last few comments along the lines of...
Middle School with direct ties, in the same school system = run the HS system
and...
Recreation league with mixed ties = run whatever, but stress fundamentals over scheme
but...
How about recreation teams with no official school affiliation, with kids from two or three elementary schools that all feed to one high school? To me, they should be running the high school system, just like the middle school.
The water gets really muddy when the recreation team is basically filled with students who are zoned for the local high school, like I just mentioned, but one or two kids from another high school zone come to play there too. Assuming you agree with my stance on the last point, does that now change just because 5-10% of the team changed?
Thoughts on those scenarios?
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Post by coachdoug on Feb 9, 2012 9:18:48 GMT -6
How about recreation teams with no official school affiliation, with kids from two or three elementary schools that all feed to one high school? To me, they should be running the high school system, just like the middle school. I completely disagree with this statement, at least as it is stated. It is possible that it would make sense for a youth team to run the HS's schemes in this scenario, but it's not a given, and frankly it's not even likely. The idea that just because the majority (or even all) of the kids will be going to the same high school, they should automatically run that HS's systems is misguided. Especially if the kids are younger, it is extemely unlikely that the HS will be running the same schemes when those players reach varsity in 8-10 years, and there is a pretty strong likelihood that the varsity coaching staff will be completely different by then. Even if they are in the 7th or 8th grade, it's probably no better than 50/50 that the same coaches and schemes will be in place when they reach varsity. If the HS is running schemes that just aren't appropriate for youth (WCO, Pattern Reading C4, etc), then it makes even less sense. And statistics say that 70% of the youth players will never set foot on a varsity field. More importantly than all that, though, is that you have to understand that a non-school affiliated youth program and a HS program (as well as it's affiliated MS program) have vastly different missions. The HS program (including all its subvarsity teams) exists to promote the HS, to win games on Friday nights, help kids get to college, to teach the players whatever skills their coaches determine they want to focus on, etc, etc. A non-school-affiliated youth program exists to provide a fun experience for kids, teach them a little about the game, and teach the kids whatever skills their administration determines they want to emphasize. Those missions are not necessarily (or even likely to be) congruent. Now, if the HS reaches out to the youth program and offers help in various ways (facilities, financially, equipment, training coaches, coaching videos, camps, clinics, etc), then they have earned the right to have some input into how the youth program is run. But if they haven't done those things and they expect the youth program to take any direction from them, well, that's just arrogant.
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Post by coachtut on Feb 9, 2012 10:30:10 GMT -6
This debate comes up every 2-3 months.
Most high school coaches just want you to teach how to block and tackle. If you deliver them a player that wants to play then you did 75% of the job. If you taught the kid to block and tackle then you are right at 100%
If I am a Middle School coach and my high school has a winning program year in and year out I would talk to the high school coach and try to use some of his terminology, his snap count, little things like that.
Would I run "his stuff?", it depends. Are they running air raid? Throwing the ball 70+% of the time, then NO. Are they running the double wing? I would probably run it.
If my high school is a revolving door of coaches and offenses I would tell the coach, AD, and whoever else that I am not going to do anything of theirs until I saw some stability. If they don't like it then I would go somewhere else.
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flingt
Junior Member
"We don't care how big or strong our opponents are as long as they're human.?
Posts: 311
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Post by flingt on Feb 14, 2012 11:37:43 GMT -6
This is such a double edged sword. Maybe the reason the high school program is not successful is because the lower levels do not run their systems.
If I was an HC of a high school and the middle school coach refused to run what I ran, I would have a problem with that. First question is why? If it's knowledge, then my staff and I would certainly help them learn. If it's ego, in that, I want to run what I want to run and nobody is going to tell me what to do, then maybe they shouldn't be coaching.
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Post by bobgoodman on Feb 14, 2012 11:48:08 GMT -6
Maybe the reason the high school program is not successful is because the lower levels do not run their systems. That'd be among the most ridiculous excuses I've ever heard.
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Post by blb on Feb 14, 2012 12:28:30 GMT -6
I am ambivalent about this topic. Obviously case(s) can be made on either side.
A lot of consistently successful programs in our state have "feeder" programs - whether MS/Junior High or Youth league - that work closely together.
However, most HS coaches here have little to no control over what happens before kids get to HS.
It's rare that the local youth program is tied to the school district.
And middle school administrators are just happy to get somebody to fill the coaching positions, especially if it's a teacher. They're not going to dictate to them what to run or get rid of them if HS header isn't happy.
Nor will central administration in most districts mandate such a relationship. In this instance they won't interfere with building supervisors.
If I was a youth or MS/JH coach, unless we were a part of the HS program or I wanted to work my way onto HS staff, I would probably do things my way including the Xs and Os.
Most HS head coaching jobs turn over fairly regularly. And some change schemes every so often anyway. Even if you run what HS is doing any given season may not be what kids will be doing when they reach HS, much less varsity.
I am fortunate because the youth league where I coach now wants to be a part of what we're doing and came to me for some leadership-direction when I was hired (don't have MS football).
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flingt
Junior Member
"We don't care how big or strong our opponents are as long as they're human.?
Posts: 311
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Post by flingt on Feb 14, 2012 12:39:22 GMT -6
Maybe the reason the high school program is not successful is because the lower levels do not run their systems. That'd be among the most ridiculous excuses I've ever heard. Well, ridiculous or not, I think there is merit to it. I have coached in the south for 20 years and I know that the successful programs here have an excellent youth program that mirrors the high school program. Now, I know that may not be the way you do it in New York, but the south is known for football.
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Post by gacoach on Feb 14, 2012 12:44:43 GMT -6
Maybe the reason the high school program is not successful is because the lower levels do not run their systems. That'd be among the most ridiculous excuses I've ever heard. Excuse, how? I guess you have never been a high school coach. If you have, then you would know that to be successful you need symetry in your feeder and high school programs. With this thinking, why even have the freshman or JV mirror the high school? I mean, what difference does it make? Based on this thinking.
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Post by fantom on Feb 14, 2012 13:00:26 GMT -6
That'd be among the most ridiculous excuses I've ever heard. Excuse, how? I guess you have never been a high school coach. If you have, then you would know that to be successful you need symetry in your feeder and high school programs. With this thinking, why even have the freshman or JV mirror the high school? I mean, what difference does it make? Based on this thinking. I always take exception when HS coaches say that they NEED symmetry between rec league programs and the HS program. Maybe it helps. I don't know because I've never been in a HS program with a rec program that is directly linked to us. I've seen too many good HS teams that don't have control over youth feeders to consider it a necessity.
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Post by gacoach on Feb 14, 2012 13:30:05 GMT -6
I honestly think that feeder programs mirroring the high schools is regional to where I am. I know that the successful high school programs here have feeder programs that mirror the high school. So, unless someone can show me how that doesn't help, I will have my opinion.
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Post by coachbb on Feb 14, 2012 13:53:19 GMT -6
Maybe the reason the high school program is not successful is because the lower levels do not run their systems. That'd be among the most ridiculous excuses I've ever heard. Maybe one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read.
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Post by coachbb on Feb 14, 2012 13:56:24 GMT -6
Excuse, how? I guess you have never been a high school coach. If you have, then you would know that to be successful you need symetry in your feeder and high school programs. With this thinking, why even have the freshman or JV mirror the high school? I mean, what difference does it make? Based on this thinking. I always take exception when HS coaches say that they NEED symmetry between rec league programs and the HS program. Maybe it helps. I don't know because I've never been in a HS program with a rec program that is directly linked to us. I've seen too many good HS teams that don't have control over youth feeders to consider it a necessity. Depends on the age of the feeder systems. Before 6th grade, it probably isn't a big deal. 7th or 8th grades should be running a simplified version of the HS systems.
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Post by davecisar on Feb 14, 2012 16:21:20 GMT -6
This is such a double edged sword. Maybe the reason the high school program is not successful is because the lower levels do not run their systems. Back in 2009 or so I took the USA Today top 20 list and a few other HOF type coaches and called each of the HCs on the phone- got ahold of 18 of them. I asked them a BUNCH of questions including scheme 16 of the 18 DIDNT CARE a LICK about what scheme their youth teams were running. Jim Rackley- HOF Texas- San Antonio Judson laughed and about coughed up a lung when I asked him how important it was. All he care is that the kid made it to the 9th grade and to his door with a love for the game- if he was coachable, that was a plus. If he knew how to block and tackle that was a ++. He felt VERY confident in 4 years he could teach the lad what he needed to know. I live in Nebraska OTOH I see lots of 0-10 and 2-8 guys looking for scapegoats who instead of pointing the thumb- point at volunteer unpaid youth coaches
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Post by indian1 on Feb 14, 2012 19:16:44 GMT -6
I'm a HC at a very small high school going on 8 years. Our Jr High (7th and 8th) grade staff is part of my staff. I hired them. I work with them on everything, how to set up a practice, terminology x and o's, we go to clinics together... everything. We have a Youth program 3-6 grades. I work with those guys every year in a youth camp. I do a clinic with those guys too. This year I'm planning on helping at their practices. Showing them what drills we use to teach what we want our guys to do. Yes I expect the same basic structure of the offense and defense because I want there to be STRUCTURE within the offense and defense.
Bottom line is it's my name on this program so I'm going to make sure its run the way I want it run from top to bottom. I'm not going to give our youth coaches our playbook and say "run this" I'm going to TEACH them EVERYTHING. The guys who do our Jr High and youth program are not educators and not really football coaches (they would admit). They are good guys who want to help kids and they have some playing experience.
Even so, some have bucked a little when I told them how I want things done. My response...everything about this program reflects back on me so I'm going to make damn sure everything is done the right way. If that means some guys get sore toes... I don't give a sh!t.
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Post by fantom on Feb 14, 2012 20:52:01 GMT -6
I'm a HC at a very small high school going on 8 years. Our Jr High (7th and 8th) grade staff is part of my staff. I hired them. I work with them on everything, how to set up a practice, terminology x and o's, we go to clinics together... everything. We have a Youth program 3-6 grades. I work with those guys every year in a youth camp. I do a clinic with those guys too. This year I'm planning on helping at their practices. Showing them what drills we use to teach what we want our guys to do. Yes I expect the same basic structure of the offense and defense because I want there to be STRUCTURE within the offense and defense. Bottom line is it's my name on this program so I'm going to make sure its run the way I want it run from top to bottom. I'm not going to give our youth coaches our playbook and say "run this" I'm going to TEACH them EVERYTHING. The guys who do our Jr High and youth program are not educators and not really football coaches (they would admit). They are good guys who want to help kids and they have some playing experience. Even so, some have bucked a little when I told them how I want things done. My response...everything about this program reflects back on me so I'm going to make {censored} sure everything is done the right way. If that means some guys get sore toes... I don't give a sh!t. If you have an aligned program-if your school system and town give the varsity HC responsibility for all lower lever teams-you're absolutely right. You're in charge of the total program and it should be done they way you want it to be done. No question about it. That doesn't seem to be the case for the OP. They seem to be working in a system where the youth and JH teams are independent of the HS. In other words, the HS varsity HC is not the lower levels's boss. In that case you can work at getting the system to give you that control. If that doesn't happen you can ask, you can influence, you can teach and help, BUT you can't demand. If you try to you're wrong. Fortunately for those varsity coaches who do not have that authority, it's no big deal. Despite what some people say an aligned program is NOT a requirement for a good varsity program. I don't THINK that. I KNOW that.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 14, 2012 21:31:23 GMT -6
This is such a double edged sword. Maybe the reason the high school program is not successful is because the lower levels do not run their systems. If I was an HC of a high school and the middle school coach refused to run what I ran, I would have a problem with that. First question is why? If it's knowledge, then my staff and I would certainly help them learn. If it's ego, in that, I want to run what I want to run and nobody is going to tell me what to do, then maybe they shouldn't be coaching. Why does this always seem like a logical thing..but if anyone suggested the opposite direction of integration (the HS runs what the FEEDER program runs) people would look at them crosseyed?
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Post by Chris Clement on Feb 14, 2012 22:34:40 GMT -6
This is such a double edged sword. Maybe the reason the high school program is not successful is because the lower levels do not run their systems. If I was an HC of a high school and the middle school coach refused to run what I ran, I would have a problem with that. First question is why? If it's knowledge, then my staff and I would certainly help them learn. If it's ego, in that, I want to run what I want to run and nobody is going to tell me what to do, then maybe they shouldn't be coaching. Why does this always seem like a logical thing..but if anyone suggested the opposite direction of integration (the HS runs what the FEEDER program runs) people would look at them crosseyed? Because youth coaches don't know what they're doing, obviously.
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Post by bobgoodman on Feb 14, 2012 23:52:29 GMT -6
That'd be among the most ridiculous excuses I've ever heard. Excuse, how? I guess you have never been a high school coach. If you have, then you would know that to be successful you need symetry in your feeder and high school programs. What about the HS that are successful without any "feeder" programs at all? When I was a child, although there was a little bit of organized tackle football for children (the club I've been coaching in the past 2 seasons is older than me), by and large children's football consisted of unsupervised, self-organized play without pads. And that was all most HS players had played before HS. But HS football was actually bigger then than it is now around here. There've been some pretty good HS players who came from places where they'd never even seen American football as children, let alone played it.
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Post by gacoach on Feb 15, 2012 7:58:45 GMT -6
Excuse, how? I guess you have never been a high school coach. If you have, then you would know that to be successful you need symetry in your feeder and high school programs. What about the HS that are successful without any "feeder" programs at all? When I was a child, although there was a little bit of organized tackle football for children (the club I've been coaching in the past 2 seasons is older than me), by and large children's football consisted of unsupervised, self-organized play without pads. And that was all most HS players had played before HS. But HS football was actually bigger then than it is now around here. There've been some pretty good HS players who came from places where they'd never even seen American football as children, let alone played it. Yes well, I played football as a youth and do not teach anything that I was taught then. Football has evolved and having a middle school program that mirrrors the hs is part of that evolution. All sports for that matter are year round, unlike they were when I was growing up in the 70's and 80's.
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Post by macdiiddy on Feb 15, 2012 11:50:42 GMT -6
If someone could teach the O and D line to use their hands and not just bump bellies I would be ecstatic
But I do agree that mirroring is appropriate. We are the private school in town and which just happen to use the same flexbone system as the cross town public school. The public school has its feeder program mirroring itself. A qb came in and had the best triple foot work out of any freshman...possibly ever for our program. From Day 1 this kid knew how to run all our base, and quickly became the leader of the freshman squad (he was better than our JV kid, but we never move freshman up)
Our feeder program is the Inter City Catholic League. Which consist of all the catholic feeder grades chools for us and another catholic HS. There are too many egos to try and organize mirroring the two HS's. Additionally there are some schools that are designated as split programs which would add to confusion.
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Post by boxman70 on Feb 15, 2012 14:01:16 GMT -6
I dont think I could ever mirror a high school team.I'm going to teach fundamentals to kids in youth ball and based off the talent of my team I will run my offense that way.Sure I prefer to run a spread offense but I've had seasons with not very many athletic plays & we ran the double wing.I've talked to a few high school coaches locally here and they always tell me the same thing.Give me a kid with fundamentals who can tackle & i'll take care of it from there.
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Post by coachdoug on Feb 15, 2012 19:37:22 GMT -6
I find it interesting that a number of HS coaches have jumped into this discussion to express their opinion that it is appropriate for youth programs to mirror the schemes of their local HS. Now, as I've said before, if we're talking about a Middle School or Jr. High School that is part of the same school system as the HS and sends the vast majority of its kids to that HS, then, sure, of course it makes sense for that younger school to mirror the local HS (they're part of the same overall program after all). As I also said, if we're talking about a typical youth program that operates within geographic boundaries that are probably very different from the HS's boundaries, and probably sends kids to multiple HS's, then that is a very different situation. In my experience (and from what I've learned talking with 100s of coaches across the country), the latter is the far more common scenario, and the remainder of my comments apply ONLY to that scenario.
So, to those HS coaches that have said that you feel youth programs should run your schemes, let me share with you how I (and most youth coaches I know) feel about it. If you feel it is important for YOUR program to have our players learn your scheme while they are still with us, then show us that you value us and that our program is important to you. If you simply say that it's our responsibility to prepare our kids for the next level and we should automatically just run your schemes because it's the right thing to do, well, that attitude isn't going to get you very far. Basically, that is about as valid as the closest college or JC suggesting that you use their schemes for the same reason. However, if you realize that serving your interests isn't necessarily part of our mission and we're only likely to do so if you earn that privelege, then you'll do the things that will make the youth program want to cooperate with you. Things like holding coaching clinics for the youth coaches, making videos and other clinic materials available, allowing use of practice facilities and game fields (including scoreboard, P.A., and lights), providing financial assistance, holding youth nights at select varsity games (i.e. inviting youth teams into the pregame locker room, providing free admission, etc), making equipment (blocking sleds, chutes, ropes, ladders, etc) available, holding summer camps for players, etc, etc.
If you show a commitment to the youth program, the youth program will typically bend over backwards to try to accommodate you, but if you approach the youth program with an arrogant attitude that the youth program has an obligation to do want you want, well, you're probably going to get exactly what you deserve. JMHO.
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Post by coachmikeg on Feb 15, 2012 21:06:26 GMT -6
Any youth program that teaches blocking and tackling well will be doing the HS program a favor, regardless of what system it runs.
Keeping the kids excited about football and teaching fundamental skills is job #1 for a youth program. Who cares what offense or defense they run?
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Post by Chris Clement on Feb 15, 2012 22:36:50 GMT -6
Doug, that is both more eloquent and more polite than what I was going to write.
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Post by FBCoachMike on Feb 17, 2012 1:23:29 GMT -6
Running the HS schemes is not even remotely important, especially in MS. A few of the HS in this area, which are some of the best programs in the country, their freshmen teams don't even run the same schemes as the varsity, they do have to use the same terminology though. the Frosh coaches are allowed to do what they want otherwise. those two schools have won the last 4 or 5 CIF championships. If it's not important for them, it probably isn't important for anyone.
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Post by morris on Feb 17, 2012 9:25:18 GMT -6
For every example people can give of it not mattering someone can give an example of it mattering. What does that mean? It means that it can be/is a factor but clearly it is not the defining factor in a HS program's overall success
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Post by bobgoodman on Feb 17, 2012 20:49:21 GMT -6
For every example people can give of it not mattering someone can give an example of it mattering. What does that mean? It means that it can be/is a factor but clearly it is not the defining factor in a HS program's overall success Hard to draw even that conclusion, when a team might mirror that of the HS for reasons having nothing to do with the HS team's success. If they're at the same institution and it's a small one, there may necessarily be a lot of overlap in the coaching staff, and it would be unreasonable for the coaches to use very different systems. If they're independent, their coaches might be very knowledgeable about a nearby HS's systems. In that case, you might see more successful varsities being mirrored, but their success is the cause, not the result, of the children's teams mirroring them.
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Post by coachirvin on Feb 20, 2012 10:11:36 GMT -6
I'm a middle school coach with a unique situation because we don't feed into just one HS. Our kids basically go to three different high schools. So, don't receive any request from any HS to run their system. They just ask that our kids come to them with the fundamentals of football, regardless of what we run. The high schools that I feed into are very different in regards to the relationship that I have with them. Two of the schools say come on over anytime because they get most of our kids and the other school doesn't really communicate with us.
I do feel like it helps when the MS and HS are on the same page in regards to the system but everyones situation is different. There are other MS in our county that work hand in hand with the HS and the HS works closely with them. The MS coaches often help with the HS program during camps, before there season starts, and on game day. I know my city that I'm from the kids learn the system from MS up to varsity and the staff has been pretty much the same from the MS level to varsity for like a decade. Does this make their kids better prepared for varsity football? I think the continuity of the staff's are the key.
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Post by FBCoachMike on Feb 20, 2012 14:02:30 GMT -6
most HS coaches just want kids that love football, are ready to work hard and have some basic skills. if the MS coach wants to run the HS system, more power to him. he's gonna need 4 defensive only coaches to run our multiple defense.
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Post by wybulldogs on Feb 20, 2012 14:21:23 GMT -6
most HS coaches just want kids that love football, are ready to work hard and have some basic skills. if the MS coach wants to run the HS system, more power to him. he's gonna need 4 defensive only coaches to run our multiple defense. Obviously the HS systems are trimmed down a bit, so that the players can master the basics of it. My 9th grade staff has 4 coaches, and my 7th/8th grade staff has 4 coaches.
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