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Post by davecisar on Feb 4, 2008 12:53:36 GMT -6
phantom, you are essentially describing what has been a very divisive point in Louisiana football for quite a while now. Coach, Isnt that just the Private Schools like Evangel, Calvary and JT Curtis or is it in the Public Schools as well?
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 4, 2008 13:01:48 GMT -6
Public schools as well. Bradie james (LSU, Dallas Cowboys) spent his frosh-junior years at one school, and then appeared at National Power West Monroe his senior year. One public school in south LA has won 3 state titles in the last 11 or so years....on each of these teams there were starters/all state players/scholarship players who started their careers at a cross town rival school.
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Post by brophy on Feb 4, 2008 13:06:32 GMT -6
This is true in Iowa & Illinois as well. It is just a trend, just like if Clint Eastwood High is reknowned for their marching band, and your son, Billy, is a master trombone player......why enroll him into Stink HS?
There is nothing illegal about it, and as a parent, why wouldn't you do this?
Winning begets winning.
I can attest that perennial winning programs seemingly always get an influx of talent. If you have a stable program with great community support, you will develop a following and 'brand' your style of play (and players). This "standard of excellence" increases player expectations (you're good? well you'd better do X,Y, & Z with us to start on our great team). The program becomes a "machine" that grinds players through to creat a high-level of play.Those expectations OF THE PLAYER are supported by the community.
The four successful programs I am referring to are great programs. I would not, however, suggest that their "coaching" is significantly different than any other program I've seen. The total program is exceptionally supportive, however (which is why they are successful).
How can I say this?
Because I've seen HOF head coaches at these programs, then coach at other schools and do no better than their predecessors. Culture of the community means a lot.
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Post by davecisar on Feb 4, 2008 13:16:49 GMT -6
I would say that genetics are by far the #1 thing that determines whether a kid is D1 or not... But all the other things listed are reasons why someone with the genetics to be a D1 kid will end up not playing in college. Grades are a HUGE deal... I bet you the state of Florida would DOMINATE with even more D1 athletes if it weren't for grades! Parenting, Hard-Work, and Determination can elevate a kid who is "close" to D1 genetically, such as Jacob Hester, who was considered a 2-star athlete recruiting-wise when he came to LSU, and his determination, toughness, and hard work turned him into a GREAT college player... But kids that are far superior to him genetically who didn't make it due to grades, trouble with the law, etc... give kids like Hester a chance to elevate themselves. If it wasn't almost entirely Genetics, then you wouldn't see these coaches taking chances on kids with questionable grades, or NFL teams taking chances on players like Pac-Man, or the Bengals on EVERYONE they draft... I would say that a "good coach" is a guy who can convince those that are genetically gifted to USE thier abilities, and get the kid to understand that grades/character are what will get him to the next level both in football AND life, as well as getting kids who are not as genetically gifted to play "out of their minds" by motivation/scheme. Talking about High School kids getting DI Scholarships and kids being able to play DI ball: What about all the walk ons like at schools like Nebraska, how do they fit in to this equation? No one wants them out of High School, they arent terribly gifted size and speed wise, otherwise they would be getting full rides somewhere. So they walk on to NU, redshirt and viola 3-4 years later many end up playing or starting on National Championship caliber teams. NU has gotten 24 walk on commits so far, and most of them had DII partial offers or nothing at all, zip etc. If all these DI players are freaks of nature, with great size, speed and 4.4 times, how do these kids fit in? It must be less than an exact science. NU offered a kid 3 weeks ago that was honorable mention Class C3. Tiny school one boys and one girls bathroom in the whole school. He had one offer total and didnt even make all conference/all state etc? His coach dropped off film of him about a month ago, Osborne was on it, they offered him within days of Pelinis hire.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 4, 2008 15:40:01 GMT -6
Dave..I think now you are starting to discuss the College coach and the recruiting end...rather than the H.S Coaching end.
It is most certainly a less than exact science...one of the reasons you see coaches going back to the same schools (and thus, the same schools have year after year of D1 players) is to mitigate some of that variability. Is it necessarily the "best" way...no. But it is "safer"
The same with the walk on vs freak of nature debate. If I recruit and offer that Overachieving kid with the giant heart and avg measurables that nobody else is recruiting, ...and it turns out he doesn't make it.....I am a lousy recruiter (and the H.C is not happy) If i beat out the rest of the SEC on the 6'4 275 lb kid with 9% body fat, and he doesn't make it...the kid just didn't have it in him (and the H.C. still thinks I am a great recruiter, because I beat out the rest of the SEC)
Basically, I think the answer to your original question is that when you go to certain schools you have a reasonable expectation about what you are going to get.
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Post by wingtol on Feb 4, 2008 16:41:46 GMT -6
If you look at the population of the old "Big 5 football states (FL,CA,TX,PA,OH)" you will see they all rank in the top 6-7 in the country. So right there you have a bigger talent pool to pull from. PLus as has been mentioned before the mentality of football is different in these states and I know people who have left some of these states to coach else where and when they come back they say there is just something different about coaching in those states. So basically I would say population plays a huge reason why some areas pump out tons of D-1 kids a year, DFW is the 4th largest metro. area in the US combine that with the fact Texas is football crazy and your gonna get tons of D-1 kids. People don't go to NYC to get football players they go there for basketball kids cause thats whats king in NYC.
As far as Jenks/Tulsa its a pretty big city with about 400,000 people. Combine that with a football mentality and there you go. Plus don't discount that people who think their kids is D-1 in that area wouldn't move to that district so their son could attend one of those schools. There was a D-1 QB in Pittsburgh whos father was a NFL ass't coach in Carolina. He sent him back to PA to play his JR/SR year to a school where he would get noticed and play against other top players.
To close, if any of this made sense, I have coached or been part of teams that have produced about 20 D-1 kids. And they were all freaks. You knew right away they were special. The kids I personally coached who went D-1 I always told "Forget everything I ever taught you and you'll be fine in college" So my final thought is you can put the kids in the right position and teach them all you want but the bottom line is genetics thats what makes a D-1 kid, that includes their work ethic and drive.
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Post by davecisar on Feb 4, 2008 17:33:20 GMT -6
If you look at the population of the old "Big 5 football states (FL,CA,TX,PA,OH)" you will see they all rank in the top 6-7 in the country. So right there you have a bigger talent pool to pull from. PLus as has been mentioned before the mentality of football is different in these states and I know people who have left some of these states to coach else where and when they come back they say there is just something different about coaching in those states. So basically I would say population plays a huge reason why some areas pump out tons of D-1 kids a year, DFW is the 4th largest metro. area in the US combine that with the fact Texas is football crazy and your gonna get tons of D-1 kids. People don't go to NYC to get football players they go there for basketball kids cause thats whats king in NYC. As far as Jenks/Tulsa its a pretty big city with about 400,000 people. Combine that with a football mentality and there you go. Plus don't discount that people who think their kids is D-1 in that area wouldn't move to that district so their son could attend one of those schools. There was a D-1 QB in Pittsburgh whos father was a NFL ass't coach in Carolina. He sent him back to PA to play his JR/SR year to a school where he would get noticed and play against other top players. To close, if any of this made sense, I have coached or been part of teams that have produced about 20 D-1 kids. And they were all freaks. You knew right away they were special. The kids I personally coached who went D-1 I always told "Forget everything I ever taught you and you'll be fine in college" So my final thought is you can put the kids in the right position and teach them all you want but the bottom line is genetics thats what makes a D-1 kid, that includes their work ethic and drive. As to Jenks: Omaha Suburban Pop is over 600,000 Lots of High Schools. Combined all the High Schools in the 600,000 population does not produce as many DI players as One School in a City Smaller than the metro (Jenks) it cant be about numbers alone. Football is King here as well. D/FW has a population roughly 3-4 times the entire state of Nebraska, but produces roughly 17-19 times the number of DI kids as we do. Per capita not just gross numbers is where the meat of this comes from. Louisiana also produces HUGE numbers with a smaller population base. I dont think it can be explained away with gross population numbers. 17-19X is a huge number, statistically way beyond significant.
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Post by brophy on Feb 4, 2008 17:49:45 GMT -6
for the sake of brevity, with all the coaches stating that genetics makes up a DI prospect, what do you believe the coaches at Jenks are doing to CREATE DI prospects, Dave?
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Post by davecisar on Feb 4, 2008 18:02:18 GMT -6
for the sake of brevity, with all the coaches stating that genetics makes up a DI prospect, what do you believe the coaches at Jenks are doing to CREATE DI prospects, Dave? I don't know, that's why Im asking. Is it the area, what they are doing, player development, because they are winning and getting more looks? Statisically the evidence suggests there are huge differences that have to be attributed to something other than all luck of the draw genetics, "master" race freak enclaves LOL. Not all the coaches on the thread are saying 100% of the reasons certain schools and areas get so many DI kids is about genetics, I thought you even stated as such in your early postings on this thread. Thought you were gone from this thread 20 posts ago ;D
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Post by ajreaper on Feb 4, 2008 18:42:05 GMT -6
I ask are you running a program or just coaching a season? If you are running a program then you are working to develop a players athletism- speed, strength, agility etc. We work at it year around because developing those skills is just as important as developing football fundamnetals. You get an athlete as far along as you can and you allow him to perform at a higher level an increase the opportunities he has beyond high school.
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Post by cqmiller on Feb 5, 2008 10:36:52 GMT -6
I would say that genetics are by far the #1 thing that determines whether a kid is D1 or not... But all the other things listed are reasons why someone with the genetics to be a D1 kid will end up not playing in college. Grades are a HUGE deal... I bet you the state of Florida would DOMINATE with even more D1 athletes if it weren't for grades! Parenting, Hard-Work, and Determination can elevate a kid who is "close" to D1 genetically, such as Jacob Hester, who was considered a 2-star athlete recruiting-wise when he came to LSU, and his determination, toughness, and hard work turned him into a GREAT college player... But kids that are far superior to him genetically who didn't make it due to grades, trouble with the law, etc... give kids like Hester a chance to elevate themselves. If it wasn't almost entirely Genetics, then you wouldn't see these coaches taking chances on kids with questionable grades, or NFL teams taking chances on players like Pac-Man, or the Bengals on EVERYONE they draft... I would say that a "good coach" is a guy who can convince those that are genetically gifted to USE thier abilities, and get the kid to understand that grades/character are what will get him to the next level both in football AND life, as well as getting kids who are not as genetically gifted to play "out of their minds" by motivation/scheme. Talking about High School kids getting DI Scholarships and kids being able to play DI ball: What about all the walk ons like at schools like Nebraska, how do they fit in to this equation? No one wants them out of High School, they arent terribly gifted size and speed wise, otherwise they would be getting full rides somewhere. So they walk on to NU, redshirt and viola 3-4 years later many end up playing or starting on National Championship caliber teams. NU has gotten 24 walk on commits so far, and most of them had DII partial offers or nothing at all, zip etc. If all these DI players are freaks of nature, with great size, speed and 4.4 times, how do these kids fit in? It must be less than an exact science. NU offered a kid 3 weeks ago that was honorable mention Class C3. Tiny school one boys and one girls bathroom in the whole school. He had one offer total and didnt even make all conference/all state etc? His coach dropped off film of him about a month ago, Osborne was on it, they offered him within days of Pelinis hire. There are always kids that mature late, and like coachD said, that is the job of a recruiter/college coach to take a chance on a kid if they think he will mature physically in 2-3 years... But for the most part, kids that go D1 (and play 1st/2nd year) KNOW they are going D1 by the end of their sophomore year of HS, then Junior year is where they begin to figure out where... Most of them verbally commit by the end of their junior season of football... A full year and a half before graduation. The walk on kids are the ones that didn't get to play in HS until their senior year due to physical development or players ahead of them on the depth chart being a lot better. This explains most of the D2/D3/NAIA kids (like me). That were 6'1" 170 lbs as a senior in high school during football season, but by the time they are freshman in college, they are 6'3" 235...
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