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Post by fballcoachg on May 23, 2011 17:44:37 GMT -6
I am well aware of the pros and cons of two platooning on paper/in theory but for those of you that HAVE done it, how has it worked out? Is it something that you think significantly improved your program or wasn't worth the investment? How did you get reps for teh younger kids in the system assuming they two platooned as well?
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Post by coachcb on May 23, 2011 17:58:46 GMT -6
I worked in two programs that did it and my take on it is simple; if you have the depth to do it, great. If not, don't mess with it. And, I would strongly suggest platooning the staff as well; I don't see that it's worth it otherwise.
The first program had numbers but we found ourselves without our best 11 out on the field most of the time. We had several starters on defense that never should have been anywhere near the field. They just weren't good enough to start for us. We figured that the coaching would catch up but it didn't. The kids simply weren't fast enough or strong enough to be out there. And, it created some serious rifts in the staff; one side of the staff felt that the other had "more athletes" and would blame them for the losses and vice versa.
The second program has had great success with it but the staff has to be willing to make compromises, switch athletes to one side of the ball or another and even get away from the two platoon philosophy in some situations. We had several good LBs and DL moved over to the offensive side of the ball to play as a second TE. On the flip side of the coin, a two year starter at WR/QB became one of our starting safeties his senior year.
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Post by thehoodie on May 23, 2011 18:55:00 GMT -6
If possible, 2 platoon your lineman as the majority will have a hard time going both ways unless they are the strong/athletic type.
If you have some absolute stud athletes at the skill positions, its hard to keep them off the field either on offense or defense.
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Post by jackedup on May 23, 2011 19:18:43 GMT -6
We 2 platooned this past season with only 35 total players. I had 18 and he had 17. We didn't have any 2 way players until week 8 through 13. It payed off a lot because we're a small school playing other small schools who have tons of 2 way players. We were fresh for a long time. Just as Coachcb said, coaching can make a difference with some of the lower tiered players and if you don't have the coaching, it can hurt you.
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Post by coachcb on May 23, 2011 19:32:16 GMT -6
It basically boils down to one question: do you have the guys to do it? Because you can have a great staff of coaches for each side of the ball and still not be able to follow the philosophy.
We all want to get to the point where we can fully platoon and we all try and find ways to get guys going one way. But, it will show if you don't have your best 11. If you try and slam into the philosophy head first, you may end up paying for it. I remember watching film of a starting CB we had in the first program I described.. I was floored; that kid honestly shouldn't have been starting for any team in our conference or even in the class below us. And, this was after a WHOLE LOT of one-way coaching and drills. But we were platooning and he was "the best we got". But, the HC wouldn't give on the platooning philosophy and that kid spent an entire season getting his butt kicked.
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Post by gdoggwr on May 24, 2011 7:54:12 GMT -6
we platoon, and a real issue with platooning that we have is depth. I know its been said before, but really, its something you have to think about. We're a big school, have a bunch of kids in our program and its something we deal with. If you don't plan ahead and have an emergence plan going in then one injury or illness puts you in a situation where the next guy on your depth chart is a freshman. Thats fine on paper, but...
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Post by fballcoachg on May 24, 2011 8:05:33 GMT -6
I see what you guys are saying. What I proposed was doing practice where the kids are on their side of the ball 70-80 percent of the time and have a "crossover" portion for the other 20-30 percent of practice. We could do it with starters (giving the defense first pick and the O taking the best of the rest (with some compromise)) but when you look at backups it gets very dicey, hence the idea of the crossover period. Then if something happened to say our starting corner, we could play our slot there in a pinch then figure out who needs to be in that spot on Saturday. So our major roadblock is quality backups and The other big issue we came up with is getting the young kids quality reps as last year we had the O coaches and D coaches spend half the time with Varsity and half the time with our JV group. The worry is that we will be losing lower level reps when 2 platooning as we don't have a JV/9th grade staff.
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Post by Coach Huey on May 24, 2011 8:59:36 GMT -6
JV plays both ways. they have a primary and a secondary position. divide them up evenly to serve as scout teams - a scout offense & a scout defense. on monday group A goes with their offensive position group during individual & group (group B goes to defense). switch on tuesday. wednesday, jv is by themselves and goes through group & team defense while the varsity is lifting/meeting. when varsity comes out to start defense (var. offense will service them) the JV switches to offense group/team. when done, jv goes to lift while varsity offense takes over (var. defense will service them).
on monday & tuesday the jv will serve as scout teams. Group A is ALWAYS the scout offense for the varsity defense while Group B is ALWAYS the scout defense for the varsity offense.
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Post by CoachCP on May 24, 2011 10:04:19 GMT -6
2 Platooning allows you to get a lot more installed. If you have the numbers, I wouldn't even think twice about it. I've been at a school where numbers were a major problem (we had 35ish total when most teams in our conference had 60+), and everyone learned both sides. My current school has a lot more football players (200 total) and we could 2 platoon all the way to the freshmen team. We choose not to 2 platoon the freshmen so they can learn both sides.
The only thing you worry about is how are the best athletes distributed. As freshmen, they can kind of see where they excel and try to go that route (doesn't mean we won't move them to the other side though). We will have a few supurb athletes go both ways when we have a need or several injuries crop up.
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Post by football83 on May 24, 2011 12:37:49 GMT -6
We do the same thing. We platoon our OL and DL and our 2 inside LB's, and everyone else we played the best player at the position. some years we are more fortunate than others and can platoon almost everyone. But I don't belive that in High School Football you should sacrifice a position for platooning reasons. Hell some of our kids seem to play better if they don't come off the field anyway!
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Post by bigm0073 on May 24, 2011 14:26:06 GMT -6
Depth
Identify your best players (2-3 year starters... All district types..).
Have them go both ways..
Maybe out of 50 - 60 kids 10 -12 go both ways... Lets say 12...
On maybe 6 of them are primary offense and 6 are defense.. They get all of the indy and group work with their team. When we go team we have two team periods
offense 15 minutes (two huddles)
defense 15 minutes..
At worst on Monday my defensive guys get a 15 minute team period with the offense.
Tuesday switch them
Wednesday put them at their primary position
Thursday walk thru...
I have found that my BEST players (the top 6-8 players especially) are WAY better than my back ups.. Increases depth.
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Post by norcaldiaz on May 24, 2011 15:24:16 GMT -6
Depth Identify your best players (2-3 year starters... All district types..). Have them go both ways.. Maybe out of 50 - 60 kids 10 -12 go both ways... Lets say 12... On maybe 6 of them are primary offense and 6 are defense.. They get all of the indy and group work with their team. When we go team we have two team periods offense 15 minutes (two huddles) defense 15 minutes.. At worst on Monday my defensive guys get a 15 minute team period with the offense. Tuesday switch them Wednesday put them at their primary position Thursday walk thru... I have found that my BEST players (the top 6-8 players especially) are WAY better than my back ups.. Increases depth. Totally agree with this. You also don't need a huge team to do it this way. We end up having it like this with a Varsity roster of only 40. |
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coachbigelow
Junior Member
Coach at Southern Virginia University
Posts: 261
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Post by coachbigelow on May 24, 2011 19:37:40 GMT -6
We platoon all the way down to the Freshman. We have seniors this year who have been playing their position now for what will be their third year. We have been doing this for five years and it has been successful for us.
There have been times where we might play a kid both ways for a play or two, but I would say 95% of the time we aren't having players go both ways. Sure we have had times where we are wondering if our backups will step up, but when given the chance they seem to elevate their play.
As a coaching staff you also have to be realistic on where you think the player is going to best help the team out. Example in 2007 we had probably our best running back playing linebacker instead because we had competent backups and we needed him on defense.
I am sold on platooning, but also you have to be honest with yourselves about it.
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coach16
Sophomore Member
Posts: 126
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Post by coach16 on May 25, 2011 1:56:00 GMT -6
We practice two platoon with most of the better athletes on defense 1st.
We also have a crossover period where those athletes come help to create depth on offense.
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Post by black on May 25, 2011 4:26:08 GMT -6
I've been apart of programs that have done it, like others have already said, its a numbers thing. If you have a big team it can work.
I think its strengths are the fact that you can really focus on specializing athletes, give some players extra reps that can turn them into starters where they would have only been backups otherwise.
But DONT be afraid to play your great athletes both ways, you don't need a terrible amount of practice to run a bubble screen or rush the quarterback. Two platooning makes substitutes packages more complicated, but if you're involved and smart you can pull it off.
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Post by TMGPG on May 25, 2011 10:01:15 GMT -6
I would simply love to be able to platoon the OL/DL. We do not have enough beef to do it though. I think it makes a ton of since for the end of the third and fourth quarter though.
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Post by blb on May 25, 2011 10:20:09 GMT -6
Even years when we had 40-50 kids on Varsity we have not had enough PLAYERS to completely two-platoon.
We have not had enough coaches to do it either unless we combine JVs (Sophomores) with Varsity, and I don't like to do that because it slows down both teams' preparation and development.
Part of the rationale is if a kid practices-plays only one way he'll be better than if he went both ways. That may be true but in HS especially some are simply better athletes-players than others and need to be on the field most of the time, especially when game is on line.
There are different levels of talent and talent can't be taught. If a kid can't move or bend his knees for example, he can't make a play regardless of how many reps he's gotten in practice.
We two-platoon as much as possible, but all our kids practice both Offense and Defense. I would particularly like our QB and Offensive Linemen to play only one way but we can't always afford to.
Having said that, I know it works well for some guys, probably more organized-better teachers than I am.
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Post by coachks on May 25, 2011 11:02:48 GMT -6
We do it similar to bigm. We split the roster up and the 6-9 "no practice" kids play both ways (with 2-3 starting).
No practice kids being the instinctive kids, high football IQ types that understand concepts without needing a lot of practice. Usually these are 2nd year varsity players who've started their whole football career.
I think any discussion on platooning has to have a bit of a common sense factor. If you are a 700 kid school and have a D1 athlete, he's going to play every snap whether the rest of the team platoons or not.
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Post by jgordon1 on May 25, 2011 11:57:58 GMT -6
Here is what we are going to do this year...We have 8 coaches..4 with JV/Frosh and 4 w/ Varsity.each of us coaches two positions....we have a couple of volunteers too. The JV/Frosh and the Varsity practice seperatly but use the EXACT opposite practice plan..meaning that fundementals are at 4:15...special teams at 5pm etc.JV offense on Tues..Varsity offense on Wed..On the varsity we take our top kids..they start both ways but have PLANNED breaks on one side of the ball or the other....so our starting OT/DE knows that every third series on defense he is going to get a break...this decision is not made during the emotion of a game. For our strictly one way players (our center for instance) ..they can do offensive fundementals on both days and maybe some group work with the JV's..this way our starting one way center is not wasting his time doing pass rush drills
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Post by coachd5085 on May 25, 2011 16:25:09 GMT -6
When discussing this topic, i think it is important to clearly define what some terms mean to you. For example, I think there is a big difference between "platooning" and playing guys one way. To ME, platooning is the organization of personnel. When a team "two platoons" they are separating their offensive and defensive players and staff. There are two separate entities on the squad, an offense and a defense. Playing both ways just means the person plays the offensive and defensive position in a game.
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Post by groundchuck on May 25, 2011 19:49:15 GMT -6
We do not have enough players or coaches to full platoon in practice or on the depth chart.
In my mind the purpose of platooning is in part to keep players fresh. I think we achieved that last year by partial-platooning.
Here's an example of what we did last season.
1. We were double tights most of the time. We had one TE who did not play any defense. The other TE spot was filled with two defensive starters who rotated on their own every 3 plays on offense. This kept them somewhat fresh for defense.
2. Our leading rusher began to wear down as the season went on because he started both ways. After the 4th game we made him a 1-way starter who played on D in key situations. His offensive productivity went way up after that.
3. Our QB and FB were one way players. QB was best overall athlete and at 6'1" played D only in critical passing situations.
4. Of the 5 OL starters 1 started on D. He was a senior and a wrestler and as we all know those {censored} never get tired.
I think another advantage to being 2 platoon is you play more kids. More kids think they have a chance to play they should in theory anyway work harder. Not always true, I know. What we tell the kids in the wt room is there are 22 spots on O and D. We can fill those spots in 11 guys or 22 guys, or somewhere in between. The more legit players we can play the better we should be.
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Post by the1mitch on May 27, 2011 15:06:53 GMT -6
A modified two platoon situation would have you having 22 starters each game but switch up across the ball from time to time. I coach frosh and have platooned for a long time. Every kid gets coached on both sides of the ball and so has two chances at starting. All that being said, when the game is on the line my best unit is on the field.
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Post by jackedup on May 28, 2011 8:12:53 GMT -6
No body has stated the best reason to 2 platoon... lack of coaching
In our region we don't have enough coaches. We only have 3 coaches in our program that are teachers. The rest are just volunteer coaches. So, in a way to maximize their talent and knowledge, we only require them to become experts on 1 position.
I'm not trying to be contrary to other people's beliefs but I truly do not believe you have to have 50 players in order to 2 platoon. We have 32 players and we 2 platooned until the last 5 games (played 13). We just felt that if you ranked your players according to their skill set, football IQ, etc., you would find there were probably 5-6 top notch players that could play both ways but would be greatly winded and worn down at the end of the game. So instead of decreasing the value of those players, you use them in the position you need most. Then you take the next tier player and you coach him up. Yes, that could be an issue but if you design your offense or defense according to his ability level, he would be able to excel. Just my opinion.
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Post by fballcoachg on May 28, 2011 9:19:36 GMT -6
if you only have few coaches though how do you 2 platoon. Im thinkjing you need 3-4 for offense, 3-4 for defense, unless you are talking about coaching ability and not coaching numbers, saying that each coach can focus on just one position.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 28, 2011 10:00:44 GMT -6
No body has stated the best reason to 2 platoon... lack of coaching Interesting perspective. I would say that most would argue that lack of coaching best leads itself to less specialization. |
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Post by fantom on May 28, 2011 11:07:54 GMT -6
No body has stated the best reason to 2 platoon... lack of coaching Interesting perspective. I would say that most would argue that lack of coaching best leads itself to less specialization. I agree. The more position coaches that you have working at a time the less you can supervise each. |
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Post by airman on May 28, 2011 13:15:23 GMT -6
I think one ? that has not been asked is how does platooning effect special teams. IMO it enhances them. you starters can play on special teams as they are not playing both ways. your backups can play on special teams, especially your defensive backups. another example howplatooning effects is your offensive and defensive lines. we practice special teams for 45 minutes each day. during that time offensive and defensive lineman(lineman only are on fg/pat) get to work one on one pass rush vs each other, they work zone blocking vs dline who gets to work run technique. also durning the 45 minutes the qbs work with the qb coach on special drills or have a meeting. so by the time we reach practice our line has already done pass pro and our qbs are warmed up and have done their techique work. oh, our qb and centers have done their exchanges both undercenter and shot gun.
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Post by jackedup on May 28, 2011 18:59:13 GMT -6
Interesting perspective. I would say that most would argue that lack of coaching best leads itself to less specialization. I agree. The more position coaches that you have working at a time the less you can supervise each. I'm not sure I agree with this. If I know a coach is limited, I'm giving him detailed practice plans; detailed instructions preseason as to what I want coached; etc. I plan my defensive practices so my coaches don't have a lot of individual time. We have a ton of small group work that way I can make sure I get what I want taught. Some might argue that I'm not letting them grow and learn how to coach... but I am getting what I want taught. |
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Post by otowncoach on May 30, 2011 13:39:44 GMT -6
If you are going to platoon, you have to be committed to it for a minimum of three years. About week 5 or 6 there will come a point where you say, "Forget this, let's go back to the old way." You can't do it. You may take some lumps the first year, but it will pay off down the line.
You have to remember that your players will be focusing on their one position for 3-4 years. By the time your freshmen/sophomores are seniors, then you will really begin to see the payout of platooning.
Bottom line - It is a long term solution with a huge upside, not a quick fix.
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Post by struceri on Jun 3, 2011 17:00:38 GMT -6
we two platoon and have done so for the last 6 seasons. Our freshman and sophomore teams do not 2 platoon but once they reach varsity they play either offense or defense. Our studs will play both sides of the ball. In some years it has only been 1 or 2 and others it has been 4-6. We also use personnel packages on offense to get our better defensive players involved on offense. We a have a double TE I-formation we use for short yardage and goaline and we use DE' s and LB's to play TE or the FB or RB spot. The players that start on both offense and defense are "cross-over" players and one day they will do all individual offense practice and do team defense. The next day they will switch. We try to balance it out so there are some practicing offense and the others practicing defense so one side of the ball isnt so short-sided. The 1st season we two-plattooned we only had 35 guys on the roster. Our depth was not very good but we stuck with it. We have gradually worked our way up to 60+ juniors and seniors on our varisty roster. I think the two-platooning has helped keep kids out and encouraged them to work hard because they know they will get an opportunity to play if they put the time in. Like some other coaches have said, if you dont have a large enough coaching staff it is difficult to do. We are fortunate that we have 3 volunteer coaches that work with the 4 fulltime coaches so we have 1 coach for every position.
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