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Post by coachcalande on Nov 2, 2006 13:30:03 GMT -6
"I just don't think that it is that easy to just throw a kid off the team and forget about it. "
while I love the phrase "kids arent traffic tickets, you dont just crumple them up throw them away" I also believe that its a bigger sin to turn your head away and pretend it didnt just happen..if you tolerate idiotic behavior because you have a bleeding heart then your entire program will be in ruin and in a few years a new coach will come in and have to clean up your mess. one of the biggest programs here is in shambles because of their lack of discipline...the duty is to the program, not to the one boy who needs the program more than it needs him. what you do is boot the kid off, and DONT forget about it... make him EARN his way back THE NEXT YEAR. or perhaps thru some rediculous amount of hills, bellies, up downs, written apologies, therapy or whatever he gets reinstated...but you cant just say "he needs us"without teaching him about consequences... At least I couldnt.
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Post by blb on Nov 2, 2006 14:05:49 GMT -6
OMG - I may have to rethink my whole philosophy - calande and I agreed on something!  |
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Post by scoopandscore on Nov 2, 2006 14:31:25 GMT -6
the topic has kind of escalated here. Kid got kicked out of school for writing a sexually suggestive note to another student. The teacher saw him passing it , confiscated it and he was kicked out for five days. Definately would have been sexual harrassment.
He missed one game and did extra conditioning for each day he was suspended. I guess I just have a problem booting him completely off the team for the rest of the year. ANd as I said before - to me it didn't matter whether he was a starter or not -- him missing the game did not effect whether we would have won or lost -
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Post by knighter on Nov 2, 2006 15:00:16 GMT -6
So in other words he is a typical, hormone charged, walking hard on high school teen male. Dang sexy chicks will get you every time.
You handled it well scoop, I agree with Borphy on this, a suspension, while not good, is punishment enough, especially if the kid will not play in the upcoming game due to being behind. When punishment is done, it is DONE. Why punish the kid 2 times for the same thing? He got a suspension from school, and on top of it got kicked off the team? That is like saying that you got 2 speeding tickets for the same incident. I am harda$$, but sometimes some of you are ridiculous.
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Post by brophy on Nov 2, 2006 15:22:02 GMT -6
take for instance......Kid gets suspended on Wednesday for farting in class.
3 days
So the kid is GONE from school Thursday, Friday, and next Monday.....
So the kid misses Game #4
since he missed Monday practice....he misses Game #5....kid practices Tuesday - Thursday, then starts the next week.....plays Game #6.
That suspension has essentially eliminated 1/4 of his entire season. If he were a baseball player or basketball player, that'd be like sitting him out of 30 some games or something.
I am not preaching to anyone here. You all believe how you believe, I have a hard enough time trying to convince myself what I believe.
In all moral dilemas, I differ to Knighter's opinion, anyway. What would Pizza do?
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Post by knighter on Nov 2, 2006 15:26:32 GMT -6
Pizza would come to parent teacher conferences to be eaten by me immediately.
I just have a large problem with throwing a kid under a bus for doing what kids do sometimes, make dumb decisions. Essentially speaking it is not YOUR team, it is THEIR team. You have been chosen to guide them. So if a kid makes a dumb decision you are ALSO at fault, as their leader. I understand that repeated misconduct has to be dealt with harshly, but I always have the disclaimer "at the discretion of the administration and coaching staff" for just this exact kind of case.
Get it staright this game is not about the coaches, it is about the kids. How will you help shape them if you kick them off the team?
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Post by brophy on Nov 2, 2006 15:28:30 GMT -6
Essentially speaking it is not YOUR team, it is THEIR team. You have been chosen to guide them. I love you. |
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Post by knighter on Nov 2, 2006 15:42:43 GMT -6
I am slowly evolving Brophy. Learned as much or more from this year's team than I could have ever taught them. We did not diminish our expectations of them at all, but we gave them more control, and they ran with it. Set up their own rules and consequences, and we had exactly 0 major issues to deal with (no suspensions, no missed practices etc). Had 2 detentions which cost kids 1 quarter of playing time (their rule, not ours). They were a helluva lot more strict on themselves than we were.
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Post by knighter on Nov 2, 2006 15:43:40 GMT -6
Never forget without THEM, YOU are unemployed.
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Post by Coach Huey on Nov 2, 2006 15:58:33 GMT -6
this type of thing (player "trouble" & player suspensions/punishment) is definitely a very delicate matter. one needs rules yet must still treat each situation separately & take in all the details specific to that event and separate (as much as possible) from other events. it is this grey area that makes this part of the job so difficult & touchy. it is by far the toughest part of being a coach.
so many conflicting cliche's, too ...
"don't cut off your nose just to spite your face"
"it's better to lose players than to lose control"
AND, my favorite: (LOL)
"It's ok to have 1 donkey, but you can't have 2 .... 'cus they'll breed"
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Post by knighter on Nov 2, 2006 16:02:58 GMT -6
wise words huey.
fair does not mean the same for everyone
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Post by brophy on Nov 2, 2006 16:29:00 GMT -6
Learned as much or more from this year's team than I could have ever taught them. We did not diminish our expectations of them at all, but we gave them more control, and they ran with it. Set up their own rules and consequences.... I don't see how that is possible, Brad....  [glow=blue,2,300]
Without coach imposed laws,
the kids will revolt
and melt their shoulder pads
into plastic cows and
worship heathen soccer gods. Cast away the unbelievers and uncircumcised![/glow] |
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Post by coachcalande on Nov 2, 2006 17:39:07 GMT -6
I agree that a coach has to have enough wisdom and experience with people and delicate matters to make the best decision not only for that person or persons...but for the program. I was one of those kids who missed a portion of summer camp because my parents took me out of state to visit my grand parents...i was maddern a bob cat in a phone booth as was my head coach...neither of us knew my Grandfather had Cancer at the time...my parents knew though...luckily, i wasnt "cut"...I was just holed up in the dog house for a very very long time...Anyhow, I know exactly what brophy and knighter are getting at when they paint a scenario of a coach who cant make the right call in a discipline area....I think sound judgement has to come into play...but discipline is necessary...kids crave it. ..
.....we had a kid this year...he missed 3 days before he even started...all unexcused...he shows up and i hold him to his bellies...he runs them...of course he gave me all kinds of excuses and laid blame on his parents yada yada yada...later in the season he is of course again awol a few times. again he runs bellies...hes BY FAR the biggest and strongest kid on my team...by far...hes getting play time...not much but he did see the field...he skips again AFTER I MAKE IT CLEAR THAT ANY FURTHER SKIPS AND HES DONE. again blames it on his parents ...unwilling to accept responsibility for his own actions (he "went home sick")...anyhow, to make a long story short, i simply told him this "you can keep coming to practice, you will run every yard of every belly...BUT I PROMISE YOU, AND I PROMISE YOUR TEAMMATES YOU WILL NOT PLAY ANOTHER DOWN OR STEAL ANOTHER REP FROM ANYONE ON THIS TEAM AGAIN. " he showed up two more times and then went missing. I collected his gear and his father and I both talked with him about trying again "next year". It was very eye opening to our young kids that being big and strong didnt mean you didnt have to follow the rules of the program. ANYONE could be cut.
fwiw, I have not "forgotten about it", i see the boy every day in breakfast, lunch, in the halls and in gym class...im always on him about his grades and trying to get him to wrestle as a heavy weight and throw the shot for the track team...just trying to get him to learn to make a commitment to something other than the xbox and sofa and bag o chips.
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Post by brophy on Nov 2, 2006 18:12:22 GMT -6
now the last program I left didn't fare to well, but we had a GREAT, I mean GONZO GREAT Marching Band.
Does the 1st tuba player get barred from participating in the half-time show when he gets a 3 day suspension.
I'm not arguing any case (because I have ZERO answers)...just wondering what is different, and what other sports hold their athletes to high standards.
Is this Tom Osborne/Jimmy Johnson knee jerking to prevent the presumption of 'corruption' in football?
I ask..because I have seen a LOT of retarded suspensions over the years....and not more than a month ago, my 9 year old was sent home from school for wearing a coat that wasn't the hue of the school colors.....gimme a break..had he been playing football, would he have been punished?
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Post by knighter on Nov 2, 2006 18:14:06 GMT -6
Does Jimmy have to miss Quiz Bowl or Math Bowl because he gets in trouble?
Why do we ONLY punish athletes?
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Post by wildcat on Nov 2, 2006 18:16:33 GMT -6
Farting in class is bad?
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Post by knighter on Nov 2, 2006 18:23:08 GMT -6
Punishable by public hanging in Iowa still.
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Post by djwesp on Nov 2, 2006 23:16:41 GMT -6
Does the 1st tuba player get barred from participating in the half-time show when he gets a 3 day suspension? At our school, YES. |
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Post by coachcalande on Nov 3, 2006 3:51:42 GMT -6
WE SUSPEND ATHLETES FROM SPORTS IF THEY ARE SUSPENDED FROM SCHOOL BECAUSE SPORTS IS PART OF THEIR EDUCATION. THE SCHOOL DAY DOESNT END AT THE FINAL BELL FOR AN ATHLETE. THEIR SCHOOL DAY ENDS AT THE FINAL WHISTLE. WE ARE DOING OUR BEST TO TEACH THE KIDS THAT WE CARE MORE ABOUT THEIR INVOLVEMENT IN SCHOOL AND DEVELOPMENT AS A QUALITY CITIZEN THAN WE CARE ABOUT THEIR PERFORMANCE ON THE FOOTBALL FOOTBALL. WE NEED TO BE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR ABOUT THAT IN OUR MESSAGE.
OUR PHILOSOPHY- Sports are a privaledge, you earn the privaledge ...its part of a deal...behave in school, keep your grades up, respect authority, stay out of trouble, be a good person, show up for practice, work hard, be a team first kid etc.
Not every one sees it that way but theres no way i would ever soften my stance on allowing a kid to play a game if he was suspended from school in that same week. i cant see how it would be fair to the kid who had "hockey tryouts" and wanted to miss one practice ...or how is getting suspended any less of an "unexcused absense" than a kid whos "fall ball playoffs" interfere with a practice?....wow, Brophy you are a softie. No offense...but wow ....someday im going to come to your practices when you are a HC and see if your "feel good" approach to discipline is working for ya. It would change my life if it is.
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Post by brophy on Nov 3, 2006 6:31:06 GMT -6
I dunno about softie, but 'dumace' is a hat I wear well.
I'm of the mindset that change their self-perception....I talk to my athletes AS an athlete...we're all working toward the same goal.
treat a kids like an empowered man, you get an empowered young man
treat a kid like an Army recruit, you get a robot that will do his own thing when you're not around like most young adults (and army recruits) will do.
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Post by coachcalande on Nov 3, 2006 7:01:22 GMT -6
I dunno about softie, but 'dumace' is a hat I wear well. I'm of the mindset that change their self-perception....I talk to my athletes AS an athlete...we're all working toward the same goal. treat a kids like an empowered man, you get an empowered young man treat a kid like an Army recruit, you get a robot that will do his own thing when you're not around like most young adults (and army recruits) will do. I hear ya, but id say youd be missing the boat if you fail to discipline a boy who need it and lacks it. NO ONE RISES TO LOW EXPECTATIONS...so I dont subscribe to a "boys will be boys" mentality at all. You offer them an opportunity to be treated as men, or baby sat. their choice. Thats how I see it..then again i coach younger kids. ...but id do that at hs as well because my hs coaching experience showed me that it has to happen that way. btw, i have stared in shock seeing how poorly some of the past varsity teams have treated their weight room, gear and locker rooms., not to mention constant cursing, hazing, abuse and intimidation.....sickening lack of discipline. also teams that get railed with unsportsmanlike penalties constantly...its a shame (btw, i know that our varsity staff works very hard to break the kids of their "habit" for yacking and late hits...but they lost their first game of the season after starting with two quick Unsportsmanlike calls....)...it used to be really bad here because the talking and dancing and all that was instilled at the lower levels. it was not only tolerated but encouraged...in addition this school im at now...in my first week as a coach here we had 23 kids on the inelligibility list back in 2000...this year i lost 4 kids out of 60 to grades...things are looking up. |
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Post by brophy on Nov 3, 2006 7:05:08 GMT -6
id say youd be missing the boat if you fail to discipline a boy who need it and lacks it. Who said we don't? From my example of not booting a kid who gets suspended, you gathered that our team has now become the "Lord of the Flies" with no structure whatsoever?  I believe we are all turning the original question into a pulpit of personal program structure. The original question was - does the suspension become an 'excused' or 'unexcused' absence. Counting the suspension as an 'unexcused' absence, then using that answer to create a strawman argument that there is no discipline in the entire program, the kids run wild, we are bailing kids out of jail, and hiding murder weapons......is getting a little ridiculous. |
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Post by blb on Nov 3, 2006 7:17:48 GMT -6
As stated earlier, we would not suspend or fire a kid because he's been suspended from school. His missed practice time will impact his PT, which is the biggest motivating/disciplining force we coaches have.
By some of the logic expressed on this thread, if a kid is tardy or absent to practice, that should somehow count against his academic record, too. Or if two kids get into a football fight at practice, they should be suspended from school.
Sometimes when the Math teacher comes to me and says, "Your football player hasn't turned in all of his assignments," implying I should do something about it, I feel like responding "Yeah, well, YOUR Math student fumbled on the goal line last Friday. What are YOU going to do about THAT?!"
Let's not get carried away, guys. There is an obvious connection between school and football, but it is not absolute in all ways.
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Post by coachcalande on Nov 3, 2006 7:25:19 GMT -6
id say youd be missing the boat if you fail to discipline a boy who need it and lacks it. Who said we don't? From my example of not booting a kid who gets suspended, you gathered that our team has now become the "Lord of the Flies" with no structure whatsoever? I believe we are all turning the original question into a pulpit of personal program structure. The original question was - does the suspension become an 'excused' or 'unexcused' absence. Counting the suspension as an 'unexcused' absence, then using that answer to create a strawman argument that there is no discipline in the entire program, the kids run wild, we are bailing kids out of jail, and hiding murder weapons......is getting a little ridiculous. my apologies, guess somewhere along the line i thought you were a bit too soft and free spirited...no offense meant brophy. like anything else, theres no right or wrong, just what works for you and what doesnt...if we both get the desired results then great. i would imagine that we all want the kids to become quality citizens who can provide for their family to perform well as a team to win how we go about getting those things...well, thats what PROGRAM means I guess. I will disagree with blb but thats nothing new. i think the football coach does indeed have some effect on a kids classroom performance...and yes, i do personally feel responsible for their academic success in some ways. i know plenty of coaches that go about things wrong...they go to the teachers and manipulate a grade change or ask that detentions are changed etc...wrong message in my mind. isnt the internet great? |
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Post by blb on Nov 3, 2006 7:44:01 GMT -6
calande, you misinterpret (again?) my apocryphal story. I taught English for 19 years, and according to the administrators who evaluated me, was danm good at it. My dad was a university professor, my mother an elementary teacher. My wife teaches educationally impaired children. So, no coach is more interested in their players' academic progress than I.
We have study halls before practice for all three of our teams. We have weekly eligibility checks at our school. Every year we are on the Academic All-State lists for our state, as a team and an individual.
If a student shows up on the eligibility list, we have a face-to-face about it. Our kids know after report cards come out, in-season or out, they'll hear about it from me (good or bad).
What you missed was teachers who cannot motivate, control or discipline their students that happen to be football players (who we have no problems with for two and a half hours a day!)wanting ME to bail them out. I don't go to the Science teacher and say, "Hey, DeShawn is not doing all his sets in Strength Training and Conditioning class," or "Zach's Squat is not what it should be. Could you see what YOU can do about it?"
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Post by coachcalande on Nov 3, 2006 7:45:13 GMT -6
calande, you misinterpret (again?) my apocryphal story. I taught English for 19 years, and according to the administrators who evaluated me, was danm good at it. My dad was a university professor, my mother an elementary teacher. My wife teaches educationally impaired children. So, no coach is more interested in their players' academic progress than I. We have study halls before practice for all three of our teams. We have weekly eligibility checks at our school. Every year we are on the Academic All-State lists for our state, as a team and an individual. If a student shows up on the eligibility list, we have a face-to-face about it. Our kids know after report cards come out, in-season or out, they'll hear about it from me (good or bad). What you missed was teachers who cannot motivate, control or discipline their students that happen to be football players (who we have no problems with for two and a half hours a day!)wanting ME to bail them out. I don't go to the Science teacher and say, "Hey, DeShawn is not doing all his sets in Strength Training and Conditioning class," or "Zach's Squat is not what it should be. Could you see what YOU can do about it?" oh right, gotchya...i know the type... |
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Post by brophy on Nov 3, 2006 7:52:32 GMT -6
Had a starter suspended from school for three days - IN the handbook it states three unexcused absences and[glow=red,2,300] he is off the team[/glow]. OK, do you kick off the team for what happened in the classroom or do you discipline him but let him back on the team. |
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Post by blb on Nov 3, 2006 8:17:23 GMT -6
Again...would not have to "let him back on the team" because we would not consider a school suspension "unexcused absences" from practice. Wouldn't be real happy about it and his PT would suffer (and he may spend extra time on practice field after his buddies have gone in), but we don't go out of our way to separate kids from the program.
And we have VERY few problems with unexcused absences at any level.
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Post by major2222 on Nov 3, 2006 8:50:04 GMT -6
5 years ago we had a kid who was a freshman. he was a ADHD kid with no self respect and was so bad in school he was a special ed program kid. he would only speak of himself in negative manners and barely got by with eligibility as far as grades and was proud of it. as a staff, we jumped all over this kid. he did things that some coaches would of thrown him off the teams for. we made it clear to him that if we ever heard him do anything negative to himself or anybody he would pay for it in practice. about midway through the first season the staff took turns with him after practice running the snot out of him for his daily screw ups. that first off season we made it mandatory for him to be in the weight room so we could keep an eye on him and he worked hrd and began to see what we were trying to do. his sophomore year, at the winter break, they took him out of the special ed program and mainstreamed him. he started his 1st varsity game as a junior and his grades continued to improve and the number of after practice sessions reduced to about 1 or 2 nights a week. his senior year, he just missed honor roll and he was all league and played in an allstar game. he is currently a freshman in a decent school and playing football. i used him to speak to my daughter about her grades as a freshman and her lack of effort. he told her that football turned his life around!!!
the moral of this story is that whether we like it or not, as a high school coach male influence on our players during the season, we spend more time with these kids than their own parents. not every kid is going to be perfect and not everyone will believe but patience and the willingness to work with these kids is what we are all about.
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