dduck13
Sophomore Member
Posts: 130
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Post by dduck13 on Feb 18, 2011 10:44:09 GMT -6
I was just wondering...does anyone on here have a hard an fast rule with you team as to when you "call off the dogs" (send in the back-ups and the 3rd string) in a game? Does it change with the type of game like with a rivalry vs. a team a buddy coaches. I just wanted to see what other people do.
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Post by blb on Feb 18, 2011 10:50:01 GMT -6
Our policy is "Play the game deciders until the game is decided."
To us the game is decided when one team is ahead by three scores in 4th Quarter or Running Clock.
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Post by mattharris75 on Feb 18, 2011 10:59:21 GMT -6
I think it depends on the strengths of both your team and your opponent, to a degree. Some teams may be incompetent on defense, but can light it up on offense. There was a small school team in Alabama a few years ago who were winning their games with scores like 80-60. Playing them, my threshold for 'calling off the dogs' might be a bit different than playing another team who is in the habit of playing 14-10 type ballgames.
So, we don't have a hard and fast rule, but I think BLB's maxim is a good one as a guideline.
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dduck13
Sophomore Member
Posts: 130
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Post by dduck13 on Feb 18, 2011 11:05:20 GMT -6
ok...this may be a different topic but if you are on the wrong side of a blow out do you keep your starters in or use this time to get your back-ups some experiance/PT?
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Post by blb on Feb 18, 2011 11:11:54 GMT -6
ok...this may be a different topic but if you are on the wrong side of a blow out do you keep your starters in or use this time to get your back-ups some experiance/PT? The latter.
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Post by mattharris75 on Feb 18, 2011 11:16:29 GMT -6
If you keep your starters in you have to expect the other team will as well.
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Post by 3rdandlong on Feb 18, 2011 11:17:50 GMT -6
dduck, I think it's important that you get the younger backups the experience. Also it's real classless IMO if a coach on the losing end starts to try and pummell the other teams backups. Prime example, we were up around 5 scores in a blowout during the fourth quarter, so it was time to give some of our younger JV players experience. It was also a time to reward those kids who are really hard working, but just don't have the DNA to be a starter.
What does our opponent do? They see we have a 5-4 backup kid in there at corner so they start to throw deep fades to their best receiver on consecutive plays. Here we were trying to do the classy thing and our opponnent acted in a classless manner.
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Post by blb on Feb 18, 2011 11:33:22 GMT -6
If you keep your starters in you have to expect the other team will as well. Exactly. I don't respect coaches who leave their starters in to run up statistics or blitz the heck out of our back-ups when we've got the game won. They ought to surrender when the game is decided and give their other kids time on the game field. Frankly I think it's poor sportsmanship if not a little unethical.
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Post by coachbrown3 on Feb 18, 2011 11:45:41 GMT -6
I think the toughest call for a coach on the winning end is how to keep those backups from scoring. I've never been in this position before, but how do you tell a kid that's waited for his opportunity not to score.
Also, I've found that some coaches are stuck when they have a good running game. Logic tells you to run the ball to keep from "running the score up" but what if your backups are good enough to break a couple? Do you throw the ball & risk looking like a jerk even though you know why your doing it?
If I were up to me, I think I would get the backups in for the 4th quarter and work on one or two plays that we may need work on. Definitely would not want to run up the score on anyone...I have been on that side of it & it feels awful when you have to watch the morale of your team go down the drain b/c of some egotistical jacka-- who wants to break records.
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Post by dsqa on Feb 18, 2011 11:48:48 GMT -6
Work on the kicking game...
Kick field goals when you are inside the 30 or Red Zone. 3 points at a clip can never be accused of running up the score, the kids keep playing hard, and you get the kicker some much needed work. We used to work on his deeper kicks when we might need them in close games. Valuable game experience and if the ball is turned over its a good as a punt, or we kick it off again.
Nice compromise to huge scores. We kicked on 1st or 2nd down in some games, because we wanted certain kinds of kicks at certain distances.
Just another thought...
Opposing coaches saw what we were doing and never had anything bad to say...I don't know...just another way
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Post by hamerhead on Feb 18, 2011 11:57:06 GMT -6
Had a game two years ago with a D1 RB...we were up 49-0 at halftime and it wasn't that close.
HC made what was in my opinion a mistake and called the dogs at the half. Sent in the JV (we don't really have "2's" per se...only at a couple positions).
To make a very long story short, the other team's HC left his starters in the whole game (it was the second game of the season) and at one point the game was 49-35 with them onside kicking. Our header then sent BACK out the starting offense (starting defense had been in for the last score) which I worry will get kids hurt having been essentially standing on the sidelines for two quarters. (We had a bad injury earlier in the 3rd...ambulance and such...more standing around..starters were cold.)
We ended up winning the game 55-41, after the game their kids and HC were all like "Aw man, we almost got you guys!" Ticked me off.
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Post by k on Feb 18, 2011 12:00:05 GMT -6
Five years ago we were 1-9. We had no senior and two junior starters.
We NEVER pulled our starters. We looked at it from the perspective of "These are our JVs we just don't have varsity players."
So when we were down by 50 to a team that had players now in the NFL we had our starters playing and doing our damnedest to score. When they had their 2nd and 3rd string in it became a game. If we put in our "jvs" it would have continued the blowout instead of equalizing the game.
A couple years later we're on the other side of those blowouts and our starters rarely played past the first drive in the second half.
I don't think there is a point where you "call off the dogs" but it is instead a transitional thing.
Two years ago we were 7-0 with an average score in games of like 50-12. We were playing a team that was 0-7 and had lost every game 40+ to 0. They had not scored all year.
Any starter with any kind of injury sat that game. Our healthy senior starters lasted ten plays from scrimmage. First three plays from scrimmage were Dive=TD, Interception=TD, Dive=TD. ....
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Post by phantom on Feb 18, 2011 12:02:28 GMT -6
I think the toughest call for a coach on the winning end is how to keep those backups from scoring. I've never been in this position before, but how do you tell a kid that's waited for his opportunity not to score. Also, I've found that some coaches are stuck when they have a good running game. Logic tells you to run the ball to keep from "running the score up" but what if your backups are good enough to break a couple? Do you throw the ball & risk looking like a jerk even though you know why your doing it? If I were up to me, I think I would get the backups in for the 4th quarter and work on one or two plays that we may need work on. Definitely would not want to run up the score on anyone...I have been on that side of it & it feels awful when you have to watch the morale of your team go down the drain b/c of some egotistical jacka-- who wants to break records. If your backups can score then they should score. If they can't stop your 2nds and JVs that's not your problem if you're just running base plays.
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Post by blb on Feb 18, 2011 12:03:30 GMT -6
I think the toughest call for a coach on the winning end is how to keep those backups from scoring. I've never been in this position before, but how do you tell a kid that's waited for his opportunity not to score. You don't. I believe my only responsibility to the other team is to substitute when the game is decided. I am going to continue to run our Offense. I'm not going to ask our back-ups to give less than their best effort nor am I going to call plays for them that I know won't work.
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Post by coachbrek on Feb 18, 2011 12:19:45 GMT -6
Problems I have when calling off the dogs.
We are a run heavy team, the backups really only run our core plays and are pretty good at it. They almost always tack one more on which I hate, but love to see the second team have success.
Crushing a team who's coach you are good friends with. Very uncomfortable. College teammates or guys I have befriended over many years of coaching.
Teams that score against our second defense with their starters then go crazy when they do. That bugs me more than anything.
The absolute worst thing that can happen is calling the dogs off too early and let them back in the game. I had a buddy that had this happened to him. He had to put the starters back in to preserve the win.
I call off the dogs on offense first up by three scores in the late third or fourth quarter. I will not change my defense until they put their second team offense on the field. Unless it really gets ugly.
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Post by coache67 on Feb 18, 2011 12:28:44 GMT -6
I can tell you all this - I completely changed my philosophy on this topic this past season.
When I took over the school I am not now it was a football wasteland and we got destroyed in the first year - now the tables have turned and we are the ones who are winning. Anyway this season we had a game where both teams were undefeated going into the game - it was against a bigger school and all week long we were hyping it up to "stay undefeated" after the week. Long story short, we won big and put our backups in after the second drive of the third quarter.
Fast forward a week and we are playing the worst team in our conference and we're up 42-0 in the first quarter. Mass substitiutions in the second and no problems - until the following week. I feel that the varsity team was shortchanged b/c they had not had a real contest in almost five quarters. I now let the Varsity players play on Fridays and the JV's play on Saturdays.
Why is it football is the only sport where the coaches are expected pull their starters when the game is in hand?
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Post by phantom on Feb 18, 2011 12:35:17 GMT -6
I can tell you all this - I completely changed my philosophy on this topic this past season. When I took over the school I am not now it was a football wasteland and we got destroyed in the first year - now the tables have turned and we are the ones who are winning. Anyway this season we had a game where both teams were undefeated going into the game - it was against a bigger school and all week long we were hyping it up to "stay undefeated" after the week. Long story short, we won big and put our backups in after the second drive of the third quarter. Fast forward a week and we are playing the worst team in our conference and we're up 42-0 in the first quarter. Mass substitiutions in the second and no problems - until the following week. I feel that the varsity team was shortchanged b/c they had not had a real contest in almost five quarters. I now let the Varsity players play on Fridays and the JV's play on Saturdays. Why is it football is the only sport where the coaches are expected pull their starters when the game is in hand? This is a consideration. You do have to do what's good for your team in the long run. If a blowout is an isolated case then taking the starters out- so that they're not exposed to the risk of injury-and getting reps for the young kids is best for you. If you have a few blowouts in a row you may need to keep the starters in late into the game. You shouldn't be throwing deep and running trick plays but the starters have to get used to playing a full game.
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Post by coachmoore42 on Feb 18, 2011 15:33:04 GMT -6
I'm glad most of you guys agree with the three scores up concept.
I got a smartaleck comment and a dirty look from the opposing coach this year for throwing when we were up 16 early in the 4th. It was 3rd and more than 10 from around 20 yards out. They were going 8 in the box, even in long yardage situations, so we threw the Hitch-Corner. The CB jumped the Hitch, the FS was too far inside, so the corner route was uncovered, touchdown. We won 22-0.
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dduck13
Sophomore Member
Posts: 130
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Post by dduck13 on Feb 18, 2011 16:57:20 GMT -6
Why is it football is the only sport where the coaches are expected pull their starters when the game is in hand? I would have to disagree...basketball teams do it...even some baseball team will do it by bringing in an outfielder to pitch sometimes. Football is definitly the place you see coaches doing the mass subs the most because honestly it is the most violent of the major sports. I know someone is going to bring up hockey or rugby or some other sport but that does not take away from the fact that as a coach if you are up big in the 4th and still ha ve starters on the field and one gets injured....what will your community/boosters say?
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Post by calkayne on Feb 18, 2011 17:34:09 GMT -6
Football is definitly the place you see coaches doing the mass subs the most because honestly it is the most violent of the major sports. I disagree on the Italicised section. Would be more to do with the unlimited Substitution rule when compared to other sports. I dont quite empathise with all of the opinions, but in general rotating the Starters out when you have a comfortable lead and playing simple Football is, imo, the most professional way to continue. Regardless of Blow-out or not. Giving the shadowy side of the Depth Chart some time in the Sun is good for the Team, but calling PAP and Hook and Ladders is unneccesary.
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Post by wingtol on Feb 18, 2011 19:20:01 GMT -6
Our starters play the first half. That's pretty much our rule on blow outs, now there is that rare just God awful team you may run into that you start pulling guys early but that is how we approach it. Some times we leave them in for parts of the third but usually if it's a blow out our guys are done at the half, esp with a running clock situation.
On a side note I do not believe in the kicking on 1st down or taking a knee stuff in blow outs. Our back ups work hard and deserve to have some fun so I am not gonna send them out there to punt on 1st. If the other team has their scaboogies in when we have ours in to I have no problem blitzing on D but we will never throw the ball when we are up big.
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Post by coachbrown3 on Feb 18, 2011 21:14:19 GMT -6
I think the toughest call for a coach on the winning end is how to keep those backups from scoring. I've never been in this position before, but how do you tell a kid that's waited for his opportunity not to score. You don't. I believe my only responsibility to the other team is to substitute when the game is decided. I am going to continue to run our Offense. I'm not going to ask our back-ups to give less than their best effort nor am I going to call plays for them that I know won't work. Agreed. I think that some people get bent out of shape when the JVs punch one in but I get it. I have been on this side of it more than I'd like so I can tell when someone is trying to run it up & when they just have kids that are just that much better.
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go42
Sophomore Member
Posts: 147
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Post by go42 on Feb 19, 2011 6:59:51 GMT -6
We have very few numbers, usually 16 varsity players, and the rule we live by is to play our starters until we get the running clock. We don't have enough for a complete second team and want to shorten the game as much as possible to try and avoid a key player being injured when the game is out of hand.
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Post by neprepfootball on Feb 19, 2011 8:22:44 GMT -6
Our rule here is when they sub we sub. To me it is a white flag saying, "We give up.". We almost got burned a few years back because we were too nice to a team. Ever since then we wait for their subs to enter as a signal to send ours in. If the other team doesn't, it is their own coaches fault. It isn't my job to stop my team, it is their job to stop my team. Now, another thing that we have added, and we have found it works... We are a run first team. Sub in your 3rd, 4th, and 5th string RBs. It will slow the game down.
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Post by blb on Feb 19, 2011 9:01:39 GMT -6
Our rule here is when they sub we sub. To me it is a white flag saying, "We give up.". We almost got burned a few years back because we were too nice to a team. Ever since then we wait for their subs to enter as a signal to send ours in. This is a very valid point and many of us have no doubt had similar experiences. However, once the game is decided, I still feel it's necessary to give our backups reward for practice effort and experience for their opportunity to contribute when game is on the line comes. I'd have a tough time looking into their faces after a game and explaining that they didn't get in (more) because the "other coach didn't substitute" - not to mention their parents and our administrators-board members. What's the difference if you win by one TD or five, so long as you win?
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Feb 19, 2011 9:52:07 GMT -6
Been on both sides of this one. In Florida we get a manditory running clock and that really speeds up the game.
Most guys will not get mad if you keep your starters in until half time. I'm the same way, they've got to run their offense.
But, you will create a riot if you are ahead by 50 after halftime and still throwing long passes. That is classless. I know some guys say that they want their 2nd and 3rd QB to get work. I can see that, but please, no bombs.
We beat one team where we scored +60 and my starting QB didn't play after halftime, and we ran nothing but Rocket and Belly the entire 2nd half-that's it. No passes at all. In the 4th quarter we let every lineman run the ball no starters anywhere in the entire 4th quarter. Cleared the bench for the entire 4th quarter.
But their coach was still crazy mad and created trouble. Sometimes you can't do anything about it. Wonder what he would have done if we'd kept up our offense the whole time?
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Post by phantom on Feb 19, 2011 10:12:40 GMT -6
Our rule here is when they sub we sub. To me it is a white flag saying, "We give up.". We almost got burned a few years back because we were too nice to a team. Ever since then we wait for their subs to enter as a signal to send ours in. If the other team doesn't, it is their own coaches fault. It isn't my job to stop my team, it is their job to stop my team. Now, another thing that we have added, and we have found it works... We are a run first team. Sub in your 3rd, 4th, and 5th string RBs. It will slow the game down. The next time we're up by a lot and the other team makes wholesale substitutions will be the first.
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Post by phantom on Feb 19, 2011 10:21:30 GMT -6
Been on both sides of this one. In Florida we get a manditory running clock and that really speeds up the game. Most guys will not get mad if you keep your starters in until half time. I'm the same way, they've got to run their offense. But, you will create a riot if you are ahead by 50 after halftime and still throwing long passes. That is classless. I know some guys say that they want their 2nd and 3rd QB to get work. I can see that, but please, no bombs. We beat one team where we scored +60 and my starting QB didn't play after halftime, and we ran nothing but Rocket and Belly the entire 2nd half-that's it. No passes at all. In the 4th quarter we let every lineman run the ball no starters anywhere in the entire 4th quarter. Cleared the bench for the entire 4th quarter. But their coach was still crazy mad and created trouble. Sometimes you can't do anything about it. Wonder what he would have done if we'd kept up our offense the whole time? Reasonable coaches can tell when you're running it up. Unfortunately that doesn't mean everybody. Like you we've been on both ends of it. We had 63 hung on us once when the other guys kept the starters in all the way because they were trying to break the national scoring record (they succeeded aided by the 80 points that they scored on a 1st year program that had no seniors or juniors). We expected it, though, so it only made us so agnry. The angriest that I've been was after a team that was up by 2 TDs called a time out with a few seconds left to tack on another. That was running it up to me.
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Post by shsqbcoach1 on Feb 19, 2011 11:17:44 GMT -6
We have running time if a team is ahead by 35 or more points at any point after halftime. Our only cut and dry rule is after running time, all starters come out. Anything before that we try to evaluate on a game-by-game basis. I agree with what phantom said, its usually tell if another team is trying to run up the score and usually if you use common sense you can avoid any kind of problems but there is always a chance things can turn ugly with one wrong play.
The worst I've been involved in happened last year during the last JV game. Near the end of the game, up by 35 and its 4th down. We line up to punt and the other team leaves both our "gunners" uncovered when they split out. Our punter (and backup QB to make things worse) is taught all year long to throw to any uncovered gunner and not thinking about the score he goes ahead and puts up a fade. Thankfully the gunner didn't expect it but the damage was already done. The opposing coach just wouldn't accept that the kid made a mistake and it wasn't a fake punt called. Things got so bad that two days later when the varsity teams played things nearly got out of hand with a lot of pushing and shoving and players needing to be separated more than a few times. It turned an exhibition Thanksgiving Day game into a real bad experience.
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Post by drewdawg265 on Feb 19, 2011 12:08:02 GMT -6
I never worry about what the other team thinks of us. My only concern is our team. When have a big lead we try and keep our starters in until the beginning of the 4th. We feel we can get the game over in two possesions most of the time. If it is third and long we will try and get the first down with whatever we think will work best. At the same time if we are losing by a bunch I can care less how the other coach goes about playing the rest of the game. We try and get our players to focus on executing one play at a time no matter what the score we want them playing with great effort. I feel like I have a lot to worry about during a season when it comes to us and don't want to waste much time thinking about what the other coaching staff thinks we should be doing.
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