coachood
Sophomore Member
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence. -Vince Lombardi
Posts: 173
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Post by coachood on Jan 23, 2011 21:10:18 GMT -6
I've read several posts recently concerning players/ parents complaining about positions, or place on the depth chart because of the position that they chose. I've also read about players quitting if they didn't get the position they wanted. When I played everybody just went where the coaches told them too, and that was only 10 years ago. So my question is when, and why did this type of attitude become common for so many programs? Also, is there a way to fix it?
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Post by Yash on Jan 23, 2011 21:23:26 GMT -6
I think this depends on the school. When I was in HS (10 years ago) this never happened. Now that I am coaching, kids seem to have a lot more say as to where they play. Also I am coaching at a school with more money in the community than where I grew up. Kids here seem to think they are entitled to a lot (including winning) without putting my work into it.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 23, 2011 23:35:03 GMT -6
I don't know the answer to your question, but I did once have parents start a petition to get me fired because I wouldn't play their son at a position he didn't want to play.
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Post by lilbuck1103 on Jan 24, 2011 6:07:02 GMT -6
We just make it clear. You are going to play the position that puts the TEAM in the best position to experience success. Period. You either take it or leave it. When our kids come out for football they understand this and if they do not agree with it, they do not come out. I am not going to be held hostage by a kid or parent no matter how talented they are.
In fact, in our district we see the opposite. We get more kids out for football because your last name does not matter to us. You can be the richest rich or the poorest poor and if you do the things necessary within our program, YOU WILL PLAY. Nowadays, kids want that equal treatment even more.
Too many coaches get scared or worried about losing kids if they don't play where they want. Where does it stop? Are you going to let that kid or kids dictate how much you condition? What plays you call? How you travel? To me, you ask for trouble in the long run if you are accommodating a couple kids just because they can play and you want them out.
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Post by seagull73 on Jan 24, 2011 6:31:31 GMT -6
I think a lot of it has to do with all the Internet based high school sports pages that give everyone their 15 minutes of fame. Kids think that a college scholarship is waiting for them because they have their picture on the net. All the money making combines don't help either. It adds to the ME before TEAM attitude.
If you are having this problem as a coach it is 100% your fault. You have the power to develop your program the way you want it. If players or parents don't like it they don't have to play.
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Post by coachjd on Jan 24, 2011 6:52:02 GMT -6
We see 5-6 kids quit a year because they would rather be a 5th string fullback than start on the O or D line. My son was on the 8th grade team this past fall and they had 2 OL kids quit the 2nd day when they got told the team needed them to play OL and not fullback.
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Post by coachdubyah on Jan 24, 2011 7:20:52 GMT -6
Why? Turn on MTV for 5 Minutes and you'll find out. lol
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Post by John Knight on Jan 24, 2011 7:47:33 GMT -6
I had a kid as a freshman tell me this when I asked him about moving to guard since he was a junior high man-child and had always played FB. "It sickens me to think about moving to O-Line". May have been the best center I have coached. Took a while to get him WELL, though.
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Post by wingt74 on Jan 24, 2011 7:53:50 GMT -6
It happened on your team too growing up, you just didn't notice it or care.
As coach's, we can't compare our experiences with the experiences of our players. We're coaching...obviously we love the game and know what it takes to win. Tough pill to swallow...but kids don't view football that way. It's something cool to try an dif they don't like it they'll quit.
Now, the kids that love it and will do anything you ask? Keep their contact info, they'll probably help you coach in the future.
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Post by flexoption91 on Jan 24, 2011 8:15:27 GMT -6
We just make it clear. You are going to play the position that puts the TEAM in the best position to experience success. Period. You either take it or leave it. When our kids come out for football they understand this and if they do not agree with it, they do not come out. I am not going to be held hostage by a kid or parent no matter how talented they are. In fact, in our district we see the opposite. We get more kids out for football because your last name does not matter to us. You can be the richest rich or the poorest poor and if you do the things necessary within our program, YOU WILL PLAY. Nowadays, kids want that equal treatment even more. Too many coaches get scared or worried about losing kids if they don't play where they want. Where does it stop? Are you going to let that kid or kids dictate how much you condition? What plays you call? How you travel? To me, you ask for trouble in the long run if you are accommodating a couple kids just because they can play and you want them out. I could not agree with you more. I coach in a very small town, where I went to school/grew up, and names mean a lot regarding community status. That being said, names mean nothing when it comes to football playing time/expectations/position selection or any other coaching decision. The only thing that matters is the team. We let the players come in as freshmen and pick their position. However, if we as a staff feel the team is better served with him elsewhere, that is where he does. If you are honest with the kids and parents from the start that will harness everything. We document everything from attendence to player issues to grades. Therefore, when the parent comes in talking about Johnny got to play time spot because of his name or we do not like them (my personal favorite) than we pull out our documentation and it shuts them up pretty fast. As the word spreads that we back up what we say, the number of complaints have dropped dramtically.
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Post by dacoordinator on Jan 24, 2011 9:09:32 GMT -6
First and foremost you have to look at the times we are in.. its a lot of young parents out there trying to give their kids everything they did not have..ie spoil them. So now if they kid does not get what they want they throw fits and cause problems for you as a coach. The parent does not see this as being a problem and backs the child, keep in mind mostly all parents see their kid as the next great thing smoking, and are almost never real and upfront about the actual talent that their kid has. It just comes with it. You can not allow kids and parents to dictate your decisions and your team though.
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Post by davishfc on Jan 24, 2011 9:42:21 GMT -6
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Post by wingt74 on Jan 24, 2011 10:10:33 GMT -6
Your sig says it all Davishfc
"Football may be the best-taught subject in American high schools because it may be the only subject that we haven't tried to make easy."
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Post by John Knight on Jan 24, 2011 10:15:03 GMT -6
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Post by coacht7 on Jan 24, 2011 10:23:25 GMT -6
There was a great article in American Football Monthly player interviews and evaluations. Seem like there is a good idea from Bruce Reynolds, who has won seven state championships in Delaware.
Reynolds said that he always asked his players to be specific in setting goals for themselves. He also would let them know in an evaluation meeting what he felt their position status was, but there is one thing he always avoided. “In some cases, I would tell (a player) that I felt their best chance to gain playing time would be at a different position, if I wanted them to make a move to another position,” Reynolds said. “But I never made a player change positions for the benefit of the team. My feeling was that if you moved a player against his will, he would never embrace the move and give it his all. I would lay it on the line and let the player decide.”
It could come down to when and how position decisions are presented to the players. If a coach did this, from there it would have to be a two-way street. If the decision is correct, the opportunity at a different position versus the lack of opportunity at the current positoin will become evident. But it'll never happen if the coaches are snide about it, throwing the player's choice in his face negatively every time he makes a mistake or fails in practice.
This is not entirely bad. We're in education, and part of it is teaching kids to think for themselves. It's like the old saying, "Back in the old days, you could tell a kid to run throuhg a wall and he would do it. Now he asks why." Usually, though, the coach didn't have an intelligent answer.
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Post by dacoachmo on Jan 24, 2011 10:43:56 GMT -6
When every kid got a trophy and treat after the game.
When more 4,5,6 year old kids played "organized sports" than in their neighborhood.
When people figured out how to upload highlight videos of their "8 year old stud".
When every kid HAD to have a cell phone WITH internet.
When parents only negotiated with their children.
When video games became more than just a dot or square.
When some parents started wondering what was wrong with the teacher or coach NOT their child.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2011 19:51:34 GMT -6
We see 5-6 kids quit a year because they would rather be a 5th string fullback than start on the O or D line. My son was on the 8th grade team this past fall and they had 2 OL kids quit the 2nd day when they got told the team needed them to play OL and not fullback. IMO a lot of the anti-OL stuff comes from the stigma attached to the position all the way down to youth ball. At the lower levels, OL is usually seen as the place where you just stick the slow fat kids and MMPs. Kids pick up on that and quickly learn that if you play offensive line it's because you're just not good enough to play elsewhere. The fact that all the nicknames for OL are rather demeaning ("Hogs," "Big Uglies," "Fat Boys," "Beef," etc.) and that there are no stats or glory in it doesn't help matters, either. When I was in HS back in the 90s, there were plenty of guys who refused to play if they weren't guaranteed the starting spot of their choice before they ever put on pads. Some of them were good athletes, some were less so. Many of them quit. It was also a big issue when talented MS players would believe their own hype and drop out of the program over their first couple of years of HS ball. I guess it all comes down to your culture, tradition, and values. Winning helps a lot.
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Post by coacht7 on Jan 25, 2011 0:31:28 GMT -6
It's tough because those youth coaches are volunteers, but you may have touched on a problem. It's not only that kids are just shoved into the line, sometimes they're not coaches. It's almost like MMPs don't deserve to be coached, and the big guys are simply expected to dominate with a minimum of attention to technique.
I can remember growing up in the '70s hearing kids say stuff like, "I'd rather sit on the pine than play on the line." But I'll give my coaches credit for sticking with those kids. A few of them became really good players.
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Post by superpower on Jan 25, 2011 8:31:18 GMT -6
I know this is about a different sport, but I think it relates very closely to this topic.
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Post by TMGPG on Jan 25, 2011 10:45:01 GMT -6
couldn't agree more. Kids are just not as tuff as they were when we were growing up.
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Post by lukethadrifter on Jan 25, 2011 11:10:25 GMT -6
Too many today are out for themselves. You foster a TEAM philosophy from junior high up. The best way that I have seen to fix the complaining about positions, etc... is to bring in kids or their parents or both to watch film of practices or games. The film doesn't lie. Compared to others on film that are superior and getting results, any sane person will be able to see why Johnny is not the qb.
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Post by carookie on Jan 25, 2011 19:43:49 GMT -6
They did it 15 years ago when I played (damn I'm old now). And a bunch of kids played video games and smoked pot, and were lazy back then. Their were a bunch who cared just about being superstars, and just wanted to play the position they wanted to play...its just like the quotation that's always mis-attributed to Socrates about the youth today.
But the truth is I got 60 kids in the weight room every day, most of whom are working pretty hard trying to get better, and I bet a lot of ya'll do to. But they get overshadowed in our assessment by the few who piss us off.
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Post by coacht7 on Jan 25, 2011 20:24:35 GMT -6
Repression is the father of the good ol' days.
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Post by davishfc on Jan 25, 2011 23:29:09 GMT -6
Too many today are out for themselves. That's it. Has anyone read that article that I posted earlier? That, to me, summarizes a lot of this issue.
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coachood
Sophomore Member
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence. -Vince Lombardi
Posts: 173
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Post by coachood on Jan 26, 2011 11:17:42 GMT -6
Too many today are out for themselves. That's it. Has anyone read that article that I posted earlier? That, to me, summarizes a lot of this issue. That summarizes a lot of issues, and not just in football, great article.
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Post by phantom on Jan 26, 2011 11:22:32 GMT -6
Repression is the father of the good ol' days. The good ol' days. When were they? I played 40 years ago and this stuff was happening then.
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Post by blb on Jan 26, 2011 11:24:56 GMT -6
The good ol' days. When were they? I played 40 years ago and this stuff was happening then. We were too worried about getting drafted and Race relations back then to notice the other "stuff."
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Post by coachwoodall on Jan 26, 2011 11:27:18 GMT -6
MMPs?
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onelooneyzeta
Sophomore Member
It doesn't take talent to give effort!
Posts: 236
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Post by onelooneyzeta on Jan 26, 2011 13:42:43 GMT -6
It happened on your team too growing up, you just didn't notice it or care. As coach's, we can't compare our experiences with the experiences of our players. We're coaching...obviously we love the game and know what it takes to win. Tough pill to swallow...but kids don't view football that way. It's something cool to try an dif they don't like it they'll quit. Now, the kids that love it and will do anything you ask? Keep their contact info, they'll probably help you coach in the future. Hit the nail on the head! As for fixing it. At the school I am at right now as a staff we coach all levels. 3 of us coach 7th and 8th together. We make it very clear to the players and their parents at the parent meeting that we play kids at the position that is best for them and the team. Had a lineman this past year in the 8th grade who thought he was a QB. So we let him work with the QB's for the first couple days and he came to the realization that he wasn't a QB.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2011 14:07:32 GMT -6
Minimum Minute Players. The kids who only play in youth leagues because the rules say everyone gets a minimum amount of PT.
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