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Post by dubber on Aug 25, 2010 8:14:30 GMT -6
........21 personnel, Power O. I believe the pendulum is swinging back to the 2-back flava of offense. DE's got lighter to rush the passer, the Strong Safety became prized for speed over tackling ability, etc. This idea has been well worn on this site over the years, and I wanted to make an application to a real life situation, and then try to discuss how important simply "being different" scheme wise is an advantage. The situation I want to look at is the resurgence (whether real or perceived) of the Big Ten. I can remember (in the early 2000's) the eight man front defenses that dominated the landscape (VT and Miami come to mind)....... Then, the spread got a running game and learned how to handle fire zones, and that closed out the last decade. Now, it appears the run heavy PA teams of the Big Ten (Iowa, Wisconsin.....even Penn State and Ohio State......) are swinging back in favor. Now, I don't think the Iowa Hawkeyes woke up one day and figured out a better, unbeatable way to run OZ and Power O.......they just have the advantage now of being unique. Now, a list of do not's, if you please...... Let's not discuss spread versus pro style. Let's not discuss the Big Ten's superiority or inferiority. Let's not discuss how you need to execute and anything will work (we all know that). Please, do discuss the SPECIFIC advantage running a scheme unique to your conference (or in the Big Ten's case, the 2009 bowls) gives you. In a sea of spread teams, run the DW........in a sea of Wishbone teams, run the Air Raid........... Get into the specifics of WHY that is an advantage. Thanks......
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Post by phantom on Aug 25, 2010 9:24:01 GMT -6
Well, that's our offense but we don't run it to be different. We run it because we know it well. I think that's a better plan- find a system you believe in and get good at it.
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Post by coachwoodall on Aug 25, 2010 10:46:21 GMT -6
Yep, it's called having a contrarian offense (or defense for that matter)
- hard for scout team to emulate - Staff may not know how to stop it (understand what it is trying to accomplish and how) - can be unsettling to have to change your routine - more film study = more distractions (hard time boiling it down the most important aspects) - wasted time in practice by trying to do too much - kids might not take the other team seriously ("What!?! No spread shotgun shoot 'em up bang bang offense? They can't be for real?") - coaches might not take them seriously
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Post by lochness on Aug 25, 2010 10:51:44 GMT -6
I think there is definitely an advantage to running a unique scheme. We have three 4WR "spread gun" teams in our division, and we see 2 others in the pre-season. Defending the "spread" becomes a common, every-day thing as a result. It was like the late 90's in our state with the Wing-T. Literally half of the schools in our division ran the wing-t back then. So, you can gear your defense around stopping those teams.
When everyone runs the same kinds of things, defenses get geared toward stopping them. The personnel are geared toward it (as you mentioned). The scheme and alignments are geared toward it. The reads and keys are geared toward it. Now, along comes Johnny Doublewing or Power-I High...and you have to re-think everything. Your alignments, reads, keys, and even personnel are not geared toward stopping power blocking schemes, lead blockers, kick-outs, and pulling linemen. Your DE's and OLB's aren't used to playing against TE's. Your backers aren't used to taking on FB's at the point of attack.
A legendary coach in our state, now retired, changed from the Wing-T to the SW a few years before he stepped down. When asked why, after a lifetime of being a Wing-T advocate, he would now change, he simply said "if a rival in your division runs your offense, and they run it better than YOU, it's time to find a new offense."
I think there's some truth in that.
We run a totally unique offense in our division. I think we have an advantage becuase teams aren't familliar with our style of play and our formations.
This is why I never go for the "cookie-cutter" or "canned" offenses. It's not because they're "bad..." it's simply becuase I'd much rather blend and integrate individual things from other offenses than wholesale-scrap an offense in favor of something anyone can get online or off of TV / out of a book.
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Post by blb on Aug 25, 2010 11:19:04 GMT -6
Twenty-five years ago we were only Veer and 4-3 team in our league. Gave us an advantage, I felt.
Then two schools in our league hired former assistants of mine (one also ex-QB for us) and I think that helped rest of league because they saw our stuff more often.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Aug 25, 2010 12:00:59 GMT -6
nm
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Post by coachdubyah on Aug 25, 2010 12:08:25 GMT -6
BUT GUYS WHAT IF YOU DONT HAVE THE PERSONELL? (lol...Wink/Nudge)
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Post by airman on Aug 25, 2010 12:13:59 GMT -6
I cannot wait for power football to come back. It will benefit me as a guy who likes to throw the ball. 10-15 years ago running a spread passing attack was like steeling. lbers who were built to defend the run where easy to exploit.
then came fritz schumer with the green bay packers who created the 3-3-5 defense on nickle/dime downs in the nfl which could play the run and pass.
I do think power football with make a return at the college level which will then trickle down to the high school level.
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Post by szimm29 on Aug 25, 2010 12:18:28 GMT -6
I cannot wait for power football to come back. It will benefit me as a guy who likes to throw the ball. 10-15 years ago running a spread passing attack was like steeling. lbers who were built to defend the run where easy to exploit. then came fritz schumer with the green bay packers who created the 3-3-5 defense on nickle/dime downs in the nfl which could play the run and pass. I do think power football with make a return at the college level which will then trickle down to the high school level. alabama had a good dose of power running last year... BRING BACK THE TRUE FULLBACK!
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Post by dubber on Aug 25, 2010 12:22:18 GMT -6
I cannot wait for power football to come back. It will benefit me as a guy who likes to throw the ball. 10-15 years ago running a spread passing attack was like steeling. lbers who were built to defend the run where easy to exploit. then came fritz schumer with the green bay packers who created the 3-3-5 defense on nickle/dime downs in the nfl which could play the run and pass. I do think power football with make a return at the college level which will then trickle down to the high school level. So, it's like holding on to your bell bottoms.......eventually it's cool again. For those who can't tell, this ultimately came from Chris Brown's article www.smartfootball.comAnother aspect is the proliferation of information on the internet. When I was in high school (not that long ago), EVERYBODY ran Pro-I, Full House something, or Wing-T....... This season, we'll have our first three opponents change schemes on us, and the variations are wild.........I'm assuming that has to do with easier access to the information. The double edge sword is the internet can help a coach catch up...........if we faced a SW opponent in week 8, I could come on here and at least get some IDEAS.........in 1997, if you faced an opponent who broke the SW out on you, you had to go to a nursing home to find someone who knew how to defend it.
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Post by airman on Aug 25, 2010 12:22:39 GMT -6
I cannot wait for power football to come back. It will benefit me as a guy who likes to throw the ball. 10-15 years ago running a spread passing attack was like steeling. lbers who were built to defend the run where easy to exploit. then came fritz schumer with the green bay packers who created the 3-3-5 defense on nickle/dime downs in the nfl which could play the run and pass. I do think power football with make a return at the college level which will then trickle down to the high school level. alabama had a good dose of power running last year... BRING BACK THE TRUE FULLBACK! Saban brought big ten philosophy to the sec. he was at michigan state for a few years. He understands how big ten power can dismantle sec when talent is equal.
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Post by flexoption91 on Aug 25, 2010 12:30:07 GMT -6
This is an example of where scheme can really be the great equalizer.
Back when I was in school we were winning state championships running the triple running game married with a run and shoot passing attack. We were the only team in our league and region that was running this stuff. We were also the only team we faced until very late in the playoffs that two-platooned (smaller school in Ohio). We could physically and mentally see teams wear down. We had a total of 2 kids go play division II or higher college ball when I in school, so we werent winning on athlethic talent alone.
Fast forward to today and I am back coaching where I went to school. While we have not dropped off the face of the earth we have certainly taken a step or two back. We are now gun spread, along with 5 other teams we face in the regular season and most of the good schools in our region.
The back to back state champion came out of our region and guess what.....they are a triple team. The team most expect to have the best chance at knocking them off this year is a double tight full house team.
I feel like the deception and uniqueness that used to allow our team to win with lesser talent has gone out the window to be replaced with the "latest and greatest" offense.
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Post by coachwoodall on Aug 26, 2010 5:56:22 GMT -6
Well if that be the case, then the question is, how can you change (maybe tweak is a better word) your scheme so that you are the 'odd ball' in your region, without simply just joining the offense/defense flavor of the month club??
Is there a particular type of scheme that lends itself to being able to morph with changing the basic components?
If not, how often does your scheme need to be revamped? every 3 years? 10?
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Post by calkayne on Aug 26, 2010 6:32:24 GMT -6
In a Sea of 21 Personell Off-Tackle Run Oriented schemes there is a screaming need for something different. It makes the game more fun.
More fun for those Coaches preparing against the Oddball, because of the extra detail they need to invest on Video, Scout Team prep, Key Reads etc.
More fun for those Players preparing against the Oddball, because of the new looks they are facing, the new angles on Tactics and overall Strategy.
More fun for those Oddball Coaches as they dont need to waste much more time preparing against yet another 21 OffTackle Running Team.
More fun for those Oddball Players as they get to be better prepared against their Schedule Opponents.
At our level we do not have the luxury of having a scout Team per se, the starting players need to fulfill that role. So if we are investing time to get them to play an Oddball Scheme, we are loosing time to Coach our own Game. For me thats the main advantage of having a radical scheme. Causing the Opposition to loose practice time is helping beat them before the Weekend.
As for the question: When should the Scheme be revamped? At the end of the Season I would say. What worked and what did not Vs what needs work and what cannot.
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Post by airraider on Aug 26, 2010 7:19:57 GMT -6
But Dubbs.. isnt that picture 22 personnel? lol
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Aug 26, 2010 7:39:16 GMT -6
Airman, I have to disagree a tad, Saban's personnel isn't equal-they are superior to everyone but Florida's. Last year they beat them. Saban is one of the best recruiters in the country.
He's got is going because he has a great scheme, superior talent and runs power football. It won't last forever, but currently-he's the top dog. Also, don't think that Alabama fans are not as fickle as the rest of the world. He starts having trouble on offense and they'll jump ship like everybody else.
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Post by dazzleox on Aug 26, 2010 8:05:19 GMT -6
Bama generally runs a one back offense (except their wildcat package I guess) though what really defines Saban is recruiting and defense (in no particular order.) Just because its not as "spread" doesn't mean I'd group it with teams that power run with a fullback. Wisconsin, Iowa, UNC, Pitt, Uconn, Stanford, Michigan State? comes to mind for that.
As for being the odd ball, we are the only Wing T team in our division. That ground is well covered by this thread, but Counter Criss cross works every game like a charm.
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Post by 2leegit on Aug 26, 2010 8:25:39 GMT -6
Airman, The SEC has been playing power football long before Saban got there. The SEC is one of the few conferences that didn't go "Spread Offense" crazy.
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Post by blb on Aug 26, 2010 8:26:45 GMT -6
Wisconsin, Iowa, even MSU rarely line up in True 'I', i.e. with a Fullback. All use a lot of H-back concepts with either a TE or FB-type, multiple formations and motions (especially Badgers).
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Post by blb on Aug 26, 2010 8:35:21 GMT -6
Well if that be the case, then the question is, how can you change (maybe tweak is a better word) your scheme so that you are the 'odd ball' in your region, without simply just joining the offense/defense flavor of the month club?? Is there a particular type of scheme that lends itself to being able to morph with changing the basic components? If not, how often does your scheme need to be revamped? every 3 years? 10? woodall's post is the crux of the matter. Whole thread is making my head hurt. A lot of it may have to do with coach's personality. For example I was never a great athlete so had to be resourceful to compete. That may have something to do with liking to be a little different in scheme (was running 4-3 defense in 1979 when whole world was Michigan Angle-Slant or Notre Dame 4-4) and other things. I wish we could give the ball to the fastest kid in the league behind the biggest, baddest tackle 25 times a game and win that way. But at the head jobs I've been able to get we've rarely had that at our disposal. Besides, I just like option and throwing the ball. And at this point I know it a lot better than anything else I could change to. I know that doesn't answer the question one bit. And yes, lochness, I know I should be developing "those kind of kids." I just am not good at it, apparently.
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Post by dubber on Aug 26, 2010 8:41:38 GMT -6
But Dubbs.. isnt that picture 22 personnel? lol Little do you know that coach is making his X play TE.
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Post by dubber on Aug 26, 2010 8:59:37 GMT -6
Someone mentioned about being in a "sea of 21 personnel"......
Really, it is a sea of anything.....if you are in a sea spread teams, Power-T would stand out, and have an advantage.
I also liked the term "contrarian" scheme.
We hear all the time about "so-and-so high school sucked forever, and then they got a new coach who uses scheme X, and won 85% of their games since then"............
Above all else, you need a good teacher........
But a unique scheme can move you along after that.
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Post by coachwoodall on Aug 26, 2010 9:03:58 GMT -6
So, after you take over a team in a heavy Wing T league with your Air Raid scheme, do you up and leave when your league opponents start switcing to spread style offenses?
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Post by mattharris75 on Aug 26, 2010 9:10:07 GMT -6
So, after you take over a team in a heavy Wing T league with your Air Raid scheme, do you up and leave when your league opponents start switcing to spread style offenses? Not until they're running the Air Raid better than you are.
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Post by dubber on Aug 26, 2010 9:26:30 GMT -6
So, after you take over a team in a heavy Wing T league with your Air Raid scheme, do you up and leave when your league opponents start switcing to spread style offenses? Not until they're running the Air Raid better than you are. Bingo. Who knows, they may get tired of the growing pains and quit. I mean, when a team puts 7 in the box versus us, unless they are THAT GOOD, we will be scoring shortly. When we face another team that uses some spread (no one is like us in our conference), we put 7 in the box and man it up. We feel like we can out scheme some guys (defenses are still catching up), but it is the execution level that makes a difference in taking advantage of the misalignments and personnel mismatches that make it work. And other teams (who base in something else) do not have the level of execution.
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Post by blb on Aug 26, 2010 9:28:55 GMT -6
So, after you take over a team in a heavy Wing T league with your Air Raid scheme, do you up and leave when your league opponents start switcing to spread style offenses? They probably wouldn't (or shouldn't) be able to run it as well as someone established with it. It would be like Lee Corso when he tried to emulate Woody Hayes' program while coaching at Indiana. Not so fast, my friend.
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Post by coachwoodall on Aug 26, 2010 9:45:00 GMT -6
maybe so, BUT it is no longer a contrarian offense IE their scout team can give a better look, easier to game plan for, can plan multiple adjustments b/c time isn't an issue, coaches understand the scheme more so know what you want to and WHY, etc..
Could be that b/c you've been whuppin' their arse, HC got fired and a Franklin protogee was brought in.
Going back the original assertion, what do you do when you are no longer the oddball?
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Post by blb on Aug 26, 2010 10:36:22 GMT -6
Going back the original assertion, what do you do when you are no longer the oddball? Imitation being the sincerest form of flattery - I guess at that point you just try to be better at what you do than the others, perhaps stay on the "cutting edge" of innovations ("tweaks") to your system.
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Post by coachwoodall on Aug 26, 2010 10:49:21 GMT -6
But there is a glass ceiling to any scheme, no matter how good/smart/cutting edge your are with your scheme. If everyone else is doing the same thing or at least something very similiar, then the differenes then shift to the athletic matchups, the program mathups, and the $ matchups.
And it doesn't stop there. We were doing some stuff offensively that nobody was doing, adding tweaks along the way. But after several years of seeing it, teams got better at defending it. Same with the dynamic warmup, SAQ trainging, weight lifting, weight facilities, PE classes, middle school programs.
Obviously, all things being equal, athletes will make the difference. But what is the signal that screams TIME FOR CHANGE!!!
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Post by blb on Aug 26, 2010 10:57:45 GMT -6
Twenty-five years ago we were only Veer and 4-3 team in our league. Gave us an advantage, I felt. Then two schools in our league hired former assistants of mine (one also ex-QB for us) and I think that helped rest of league because they saw our stuff more often. woodall, again you raise good points and ask pointed question. In above example, after few years I decided to change schemes (not solely because other two were running ours). After about a year and a half of not winning more (and getting home later because we had to pass more so games were longer) I switched back to what I knew best and had most confidence in. And lo and behold, we had more success. Since then we have tried to continue to evolve by utilizing unusual formations, expanding our complimentary runs and passing game, and out of necessity developing answers to Spread offenses. But base Offense and Defense, terminology, etc. has stayed the same - for better or worse.
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