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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 3, 2010 12:04:27 GMT -6
Obviously you CAN... but after reading Phantoms thread and article about one of the top VA powers allegedly defying rules..it got me to thinking.
I know that when some of the national power programs in Louisiana (West Monroe, Evangel, John Curtis) were at there zenith, there were constantly allegations of bending/breaking rules or doing things that just weren't within the spirit of the rules. All three had holdback programs, in which 8th graders with athletic prowess repeated their 8th grade years. (Interestingly enough, once a rule was put in place to stop this, all 3 programs fell a bit) All three have had notable "transfers" into the school, and the two private schools have a reputation for recruiting (once blatant, now it is more passive).
The only public school that has had decent success against JC in the last 15 years or so has also developed a reputation for transfers, illegal practices etc. I don't have first hand knowledge of the illegal practices, I DID have 100% proof of the transfer situation...
One of the premiere coaches in Louisiana was found to be running a nefarious program at another New Orleans area private school where he accumulated probably over 200 wins.
I just keep seeing all of these "successful" programs with years of winning..and then when it gets broken down, there are skeletons everywhere.
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Post by phantom on Jul 3, 2010 12:44:50 GMT -6
Well, us I guess although not everybody will believe that. We do get transfers but it's always initiated by the parents and we're almost paranoid about confirming that everything is done legally. We've turned parents away if they wanted to cut corners.
Years ago our old HC used to want to run plays in the offseason. We don't do it anymore for a number of reasons:
1. As our profile rose the risk/reward became less favorable.
2. Our present HC was an assistant then and agrees with us that it's a foolish risk and a
silly waste of time.
3. Cell phone cameras make it too risky.
4. Internet message boards. You can bet that some kid will go on Virginia Preps or Facebook
bragging about the great practice we had last night.
The bottom line is that there's too much to lose and too little gained by cheating.
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Post by coachbdud on Jul 3, 2010 12:56:49 GMT -6
in NorCal here it is easy. Literally no rules whatsoever during the summer. We could practice 10 times a day on sunday if we wanted to.
But the "programs" cheat every year before spring ball. Technically before spring ball no one is allowed to do anything but weights and running. but all the good programs have their whole team out there running through plays and drills up to a month or 2 before spring ball starts. I even hear rumors every now and then of a team being in pads when they arent allowed to.. But the governing bodies here never even attempt to bust anybody
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Post by davecisar on Jul 3, 2010 13:30:13 GMT -6
Im not a HS coach- I have no first hand knowledge of this BUT
How much of this is the real deal and how much is sour grapes?
There are SO MANY silly rumors that go around- people do so many silly things to CYA
The blame game seem to be the most common thread we see when anyone fails anymore. Gosh with so many discruntled whacko parents one would think any kind of illegal conspiracy type stuff would come out given the technology we have today.
In youth it is exactly the same- case in point:
The league my kids are in now- first year in the league- all rookie kids- we go 11-0, win em all, beat league bully in championship game by mercy rule- win state title. Were told by refs 'best coached youth team Ive ever seen"
Next year the league puts mandatory start date of 8/1 and cant practice more than 4 days per week. The rumor was we were practicing 5 nights a week, year round. The truth was we were going 3 nights a week until school started, then 2, less than anyone in the league and we never started until 8/2 we LOVED the rule- it put us on more equal ground- We just never wasted any practice time and had a sense of urgency etc In one game- film rolling (audio ALWAYS ON) with seats on one side only- game 30-0 us, right before half, one of their parents yells over sarcastically- "How often DO you guys practice?"- Our parent, - "we are at 2 nights a week" Their guy, " 2 nights a week- we are at 4 and we're getting this sh#t grr" LOL Maybe sometimes it's not what it always seems, then again maybe sometimes it is. For us, it was all barbara streisand. No offense intended, Im sure there are guys that are cheating- but maybe some arent and are being falsely accused.
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Post by 19delta on Jul 3, 2010 13:45:00 GMT -6
I think that it is something of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
One of the top high school programs in Illinois is Joliet Catholic High School. There has always been allegations of cheating and wrongdoing at JC but I don't think it has ever been proved.
What I do think happens is that talented kids gravitate to schools like that simply because the football program has been successful.
I really don't think that coaches at places like JC have to recruit or doing anything illegal to get top talent...they simply have to show parents and kids the trophy case with 11 state championships and the pictures of kids who have gone on to play college and pro football. ;D
I also think that every program probably does something against the rules at some point. However, when you are 2-7, no one is going to care. When you are 9-0 and winning state titles, everything you do comes under a microscope.
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Post by phantom on Jul 3, 2010 14:38:43 GMT -6
Im not a HS coach- I have no first hand knowledge of this BUT How much of this is the real deal and how much is sour grapes? I can tell you from personal experience that there's some truth to that. Until 2001 we were chasing a great program that we thought was recruiting. They were always getting transfers including some of our kids. Now that the shoe's on the other foot I can see that they didn't need to recruit any more than we do. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 3, 2010 14:45:51 GMT -6
Im not a HS coach- I have no first hand knowledge of this BUT How much of this is the real deal and how much is sour grapes? Can't speak for other places, but the ones I mentioned in Louisiana are 100% real deal, and 0% sour grapes. Also keep in mind that it is MUCH easier to maintain a dominant high school program that is successful than it is to MAKE a program dominant. It isn't the NFL. I read comments like phantoms, and they are valid (we don't instigate any transfers, the parents do etc.) However based on what has happened in Louisiana, I would suspect that in the early goings.."something" might have kickstarted some programs to the point where they didn't have to outwardly recruit. Here in LA, once those programs got the snowball rolling down hill...... Just to be clear, I am not suggesting that 100% of the success of those programs came from pushing/bending/twisting/breaking rules. I know first hand that J.T Curtis is an EXCELLENT coach, and I have seen him coach harder than other coaches during 7-on-7 games in the summer knowing darn well his team might not attempt as many passes that season as they would on that particular day. I am just musing that it seems often when we see a program with "unreal" results, and we start pulling back the layers of the onion.... |
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Post by spartan on Jul 3, 2010 17:58:22 GMT -6
Its players you either have them or don't. Youneed that magical 4 years of dudes and rookies that just keep it rolling.
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Post by fatkicker on Jul 3, 2010 20:50:14 GMT -6
I think a dynasty is started with luck... A team has to win a few "on their own"... Then, as stated earlier, good players gravitate to good programs... Example. after katrina, an all world tight end left his school that was damaged to go to our state's best program... He didn't stay long, but it wasn't an accident that he ended up there... Mediocre schools don't have that luxury. And it could just be good genes... If you look at south panola's rosters for the last 25 years, most of the last names are repeated over and over.... Same with taylorsville and weir (some of our best programs)
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CoachJ
Junior Member
Posts: 307
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Post by CoachJ on Jul 5, 2010 11:52:57 GMT -6
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Post by coachcb on Jul 5, 2010 16:21:16 GMT -6
I've heard the 'sour grapes' all of the time.
Every team in our conference can have an athletic period if they want one. However, some don't because they're too dumb to work with the administration and PE department to get it going. There's a lot of resentment towards those programs, like us, that do have an athletic program. Even though the toughest team we play doesn't have an athletic period and they have one of the smallest enrollments in our conference.
-We hear a lot about how 'we have the athletes', but, when you play and watch some other teams in our conference, their schemes are put together poorly and the kids aren't well coached. But, this is continually fed into by the fact that when they have some more athletic kids, they're more successful, when they don't, they're terrible.
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