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Post by lilbuck1103 on Mar 28, 2010 10:29:14 GMT -6
Football is a team activity. If one person does not do their job, the team will suffer. If one person jumps offsides, the entire team is assessed 5 yards, not one kid. You can't pick and choose when you call this a team activity. We do not use this form of discipline a lot, but there are definitely times when this is more effective in terms of teaching a kid to make correct and accountable decisions.
Each action a kid makes results in consequences. If you do not want to experience the consequences, do not commit the offense. Pretty simple...
You are also pretty well secure from potential problems using this form of discipline. As long as it is laid out from the beginning and it is explained the reason(s) it is done this way you will be fine.
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cls
Junior Member
Posts: 295
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Post by cls on Mar 28, 2010 11:39:14 GMT -6
Agreed..Practice time be wasted is the key issue in my eyes. You get so much time to implement a decent game plan. I don't want a minute of practice time used to discipline players. Chart the mistakes and at the end look at the chart and now we have conditioning...No mistakes no conditioning...I think this is a great way to motivate and keep mental focus in practice.
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Post by Defcord on Mar 28, 2010 12:00:54 GMT -6
Agreed..Practice time be wasted is the key issue in my eyes. You get so much time to implement a decent game plan. I don't want a minute of practice time used to discipline players. Chart the mistakes and at the end look at the chart and now we have conditioning...No mistakes no conditioning...I think this is a great way to motivate and keep mental focus in practice. Isn't this essentially the same thing??? If you make mistakes the whole team conditions (runs?)
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Post by coachcb on Mar 28, 2010 12:36:22 GMT -6
Football is the ultimate team game, but I have never had success with disciplining the entire team for one person's mistake. It appears that you're building unity, but, in some ways, you're driving the team apart. At the very least, they learn to hate the player that's screwing up, at the worst, they hate you because you're punishing them after they've done their job all day. Kids just don't think the way we do; we believe we're being proactive, but their response is going to be reactive.
Plus, it wastes practice time, there's no way around it. Stopping a practice to make the entire team run takes time and that is something that we do not have in abundance.
I honestly don't even punish a kid for a mistake, I coach him up on it and go from there. If he's lazy or uncoachable, then he doesn't get reps at practice and he doesn't play. For me, that's punishment enough. I'll stay after practice with a kid in an effort to fix mistakes, but if he makes the CHOICE not pay attention or get better, then he'll just sit on the sidelines during practice and in games. I don't see how running them can force them to make the right decisions; it comes down to the basics. Does he want to play or doesn't he?
For me, that's punishment enough and it works. Kids hate running when they make mistakes, but they hate riding the bench a whole lot more.
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cls
Junior Member
Posts: 295
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Post by cls on Mar 28, 2010 14:18:03 GMT -6
Agreed..Practice time be wasted is the key issue in my eyes. You get so much time to implement a decent game plan. I don't want a minute of practice time used to discipline players. Chart the mistakes and at the end look at the chart and now we have conditioning...No mistakes no conditioning...I think this is a great way to motivate and keep mental focus in practice. Isn't this essentially the same thing??? If you make mistakes the whole team conditions (runs?) You know it's all what you are selling. We are selling that if we make mistakes we need to work harder to overcome those mistakes. If we jump off-side we then need to work harder to make up those 5 yards we just lost. You have to work harder to get 1st and 15 then you do 1st and 10. So when a mistake is made durring practice we chart it and then run them after practice. Is that running/conditioning punishment or reality of football? Football is a game of responses. We must get our kids ready for adversity when/if it happens. I think this is sound coaching and great for the kids to learn for later in life.
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cwoo54
Freshmen Member
OH YEAH!
Posts: 59
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Post by cwoo54 on Mar 28, 2010 18:00:40 GMT -6
We separated what was a team offense (fumble, penalty, etc.) and individual offenses (loaf, late, etc.) If the TEAM had an infraction in practice, we dealt with it then and there. In a game, we dealt with it Monday or Tuesday. Individually, we had what was called O.T.I.S. (Opportunity To Improve Squad). 1st major infraction = 400 yards of whoever was in charge wanted. Next was 800 yards and so on. Minor infractions were any ones that were excused beforehand.
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Post by gdn56 on Mar 28, 2010 22:11:26 GMT -6
My philosophy is that if one kid committs a big penalty or misses an obligation off the field, or whatever...he hurts the entire team. Therefore, the whole team should pay to make-up the mistake of their teammate, and while doing so, make-up their inability to hold their teammate accountable. If one person sinks, the whole ship sinks. This not only promotes accountability, it also allows you to benefit from a little adversity by testing their response as a team to an individual issue.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 28, 2010 23:15:45 GMT -6
For all those using the "all for one and one for all" mantra, just remember this guy
In the current climate of HS sports, where parent is king, admin is spinless, and logic only exists in lollipop land...I don't know how well your arguments would stand up to pissy parents with agendas. And you better be darn sure there will be no retaliations.
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Post by coachmoore42 on Mar 29, 2010 4:37:00 GMT -6
We try to stay away from the "entire team" punishment for one kid's actions. . Why? I'm just wanting to probe this a little further. Because we've got too many parents who would be in the county board room. It also creates hazing problems, which would also result in board members being contacted. I can't even give rewards for summer attendance because it is "punishing those who don't come", that was from both the AD and Principal.
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Post by Defcord on Mar 29, 2010 6:12:33 GMT -6
Isn't this essentially the same thing??? If you make mistakes the whole team conditions (runs?) You know it's all what you are selling. We are selling that if we make mistakes we need to work harder to overcome those mistakes. If we jump off-side we then need to work harder to make up those 5 yards we just lost. You have to work harder to get 1st and 15 then you do 1st and 10. So when a mistake is made durring practice we chart it and then run them after practice. Is that running/conditioning punishment or reality of football? Football is a game of responses. We must get our kids ready for adversity when/if it happens. I think this is sound coaching and great for the kids to learn for later in life. I agree with your philosophy. I thought you said that you didn't make the whole team run for one's mistakes though. Sorry I was confused in my reading.
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juice10
Sophomore Member
Posts: 200
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Post by juice10 on Mar 31, 2010 11:25:03 GMT -6
I think that this would depend on where you are at and what expectations have been driven home before you. I can honestly say that we do very little team discipline because that is what has been told to me. We had an incident a couple of years ago, a few players were misbehaving and didn't understand the concept of teamwork, so we "disciplined", "punished", "taught" whatever word you want to use, and I had some ticked off parents because their little johnny did nothing wrong. They didn't do anything to help the matter either. So I got my A@@ chewed.
We do nothing to the team anymore other than football specific agility or conditioning drills. If a student is late, he does what we call "REMINDERS". "REMINDERS" are extra conditioning drills meant to hopefully curb that student/athletes thought process the next time he reaches that fork in the road.
I haven't had too many complaints from parents or admin since I started going to this. If you are a school or have been a school that has punished the team, then there are probably little to no problems; however, I am not able to do that at my school, or I am not willing to take the chance.
If things get really out of hand, I call on my captains or senior/junior leaders to help discuss other avenues that we need to take.
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Post by fatkicker on Mar 31, 2010 11:37:27 GMT -6
it's like the old days of the p.e. teacher lining everybody up to take a paddling because half of the class was eating in the gym or whatever.....if you didn't do anything then the coach would just say "well, you probably got away with something that i didn't catch..."
there was a time when it wouldn't be questioned......now, they'll try to throw you under the jail for it.....
it's just hard to justify group punishments (in any setting) anymore.......
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Post by robinhood on Apr 1, 2010 10:20:41 GMT -6
emptybackfield:
We have probably done all the things mentioned here, BUT we NEVER call it punishment. "Punish" is a word that gets you into trouble.
Example:
If we have a neutral zone infraction or illegal procedure problem, we line up, give a snap count, and go on a series of 20 yard sprints to make sure the problem of focus is corrected.
WE NEVER CALL IT PUNISHMENT. It is the correction of a problem the team has.
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Post by indian1 on Apr 2, 2010 10:37:21 GMT -6
It's amazing how much better all of the players pay attention when they know if they screw up everyone is going to run a sprint. The pace of practice goes faster. They ask more questions when they are unsure.
No one wants to be the guy who costs the team a sprint. Not because they are afraid of retribution but because they genuinely care about their teammates and their performance. They are accountable to each other just like they are in a game.
This has been the only way I've truly been able to replicate the intensity of a game. Guys really go hard when they are on edge and they know their buddies are counting on them. What I've noticed is guys point fingers less and take more responsibility for themselves.
As far as practice time goes. We don't run all day for a mistake, just a quick sprint across the field and back to work. But it reminds everyone what we are out there for. Also even though you may burn a minute or two per practice doing springs, the QUALITY of your practice is usually greatly increased.
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smu92
Junior Member
Posts: 415
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Post by smu92 on Apr 2, 2010 22:52:51 GMT -6
Just don't do the "everyone is going to run while you stand here and watch" punishment. That's just dumb. The kid gets off scott free, and it will tear your team apart. If you want to punish everyone together as a "team", then go ahead, but don't make the offender stand and watch. Then you're asking for trouble and accomplishing nothing.
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Post by Coach Bennett on Apr 5, 2010 14:08:30 GMT -6
For me, discipline does not equal punishment, although punishment is a part of discipline, does that make sense? By instilling a disciplined environment at the outset with clearly explained expectations and consequences coupled with fair and equitable follow through establishes the structure which I believe all kids, though they may never say this, crave. They want to know at the outset what consequences, good, bad or otherwise, will accompany their behaviors.
For the most part, kids are therefore dealt with on an individual basis regarding their behaviors.
Often, when we run sprints or conditioning drills, we'll go on snap counts or moving the ball (defense) and if a kid jumps, we'll have the respective group step five yard backs and go again. In this way, we're conditioning anyway and adding a half second to the overall practice; kids rarely jump twice.
When we get to team, a kid jumps, he's replaced. Not yelled at, not demeaned, not told to run sprints. Depending on the frequency of his actions, he may go back in the next play or sit for an extended time. Not getting reps is a pretty effective motivator...plus, our practice clicks along on schedule.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 5, 2010 17:22:45 GMT -6
Again, with punishing the whole team for one player's mistake, you're trying to sell team unity, but you're dealing with high school kids and they're not going to buy into it. There may be fewer mistakes because the team is afraid of said punishment, but the kids just aren't going to view it as a team building exercise. In the best case scenario, they'll come together as a team, but they'll only do so because they have one thing in common; THEY HATE YOU.
And that's not something you want because the disgruntled kids (who have been doing their jobs) may become hard to coach and possibly even cancerous.
Right now, I coach under the best HC I have ever worked with and one of the best men that I have had the pleasure of being around. He told me once that the secret to his success was simple; you just have to take care of your guys. Running sprint all friggin day because one kid keeps jumping off sides is a waste. Why not save yourself some time and effort and just put the kid on the sideline? He's making mistakes and costing the team but it's still his fault, not the teams. Remove him from the situation.
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