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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 21, 2010 9:32:15 GMT -6
I think it is a combination of "burn out", lack of immediate success/attention, and a relatively NEW phenomenon of being able to simulate it via football video games.
Burn out--blb is right. The kids coming up today have been the pawns of many "daddy belichiks" and "play ground Bob knights and joe torres" for several years. It shows in the cream of the crop..todays top athletes are much more polished than previous generations. But those below the cream seem to be growing weary.
Lack of Immediat success/attention--I believe this spawns from the previous paragraph. I really think the kids have a hard time going from even high level youth sports to an "afterthought" freshman team. They also have trouble from being the best kid in the group (divided by age) to a kid who is 4 years younger (frosh vs sr.) and no longer excelling.
Lastly, kids can now "legitimately" ( in their minds) participate in football via video games. I think the disconnect between simulated life and actual life is growing smaller in the minds of those younger, simply because it is what they know. Playing video game sports allows them to participate in a manner that is satisfactory to them, and they enjoy that MORE than participating in the sport itself.
When those say..32+ were growing up, the video games were not really existent or were just starting to pop up. As they got older, they grew more prevalent (Nintendo and Super Nintendo), but the foundations were still rooted in real, not simulated play. If someone wanted to "be like mike", they had to get off their butts and shoot jump shots. If I wanted to pretend I was in the Sugar Bowl on New Years...I had to go outside with my friends and run and throw and catch (or just lay down and day dream)
This is no longer the case. Watch TV...get excited about the NCAA basketball tournament and what do the kids do? They go buy March Madness 2010, and THAT satisfies their bball juices. Pre simulated life... I had to go shoot jumpers to get my fix.
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Post by mariner42 on Mar 21, 2010 11:02:39 GMT -6
I dunno, I'm 25, so I'm a little bit above this 'generation' that is being discussed, but here's my two bits:
I don't know many kids that are leaving football, or other sports, in order to play video games. They're leaving to specialize or do other things altogether. They're partying or working or playing alternative sports/activities. I can't talk out two freshman that have varsity-ready bodies because they're both too in love with their BMX riding.
I do agree with the organized activities at an early age. There's no friggin' point to tee-ball, but every year there's a bunch of 6 year old kids clubbing the hell out of the tee instead of the ball and boring their parents to death. Ever watched the lowest divisions of youth basketball? It's horrible. As a parent, I'd hate to go watch that. There's no point. A basketball game that ends 7-3 is friggin' tragic.
But, the thing I hate is specialization. We lose more kids to specialization, by their choice or their coaches, than anything else. For the most part, D-I schools don't come down to our county for athletes, but no one seems to realize it. So, it's all about trying to get a college scholarship by playing on 2-3 club teams coached by your HS coach and preparing year round on teams while never better yourself as an athlete in the weight room. I could rant more, but I'm gonna stop.
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Post by k on Mar 21, 2010 11:44:43 GMT -6
I don't know many kids that are leaving football, or other sports, in order to play video games. This is correct. The only time I could see video games cutting down on your player base in any significant way is if the coaches have made an issue of it. Our kids all play together and all their xbox profiles present our team. Its pretty cool I think. The first thing they want to do is identify themselves as football players to strangers.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 21, 2010 12:34:03 GMT -6
I don't know many kids that are leaving football, or other sports, in order to play video games. They're leaving to specialize or do other things altogether. They're partying or working or playing alternative sports/activities. I can't talk out two freshman that have varsity-ready bodies because they're both too in love with their BMX riding. That is somewhat the situation I was alluding to with the video game part of my post. They can ride BMX's all day long..and still "play" football on madden. They can "be" Peyton Manning, or Reggie Bush, or Ray Lewis on their own time without the need for the time commitment or commitment to others that it would have taken 20 years ago. So I don't think it is kids leaving teams they are ON to play video games. They are simply finding other things to do and are able to satisfy their football needs with games. I don't know if there is really a big increase in organized activities available at an early age. I disagree with you about basketball and tee ball being available to those youngsters. The problem is the INTENSITY level given to a select part of those activities. A few years ago I brought up that ENGLAND was changing how they administered the youngest levels of soccer to try and help with their national level team. On the youth board I was inundated with "life keeps score..if you play, you play to win..blah blah" type posts. Thats where I think the problem lies with organized youth sports. The adults who try and channel Bill Parcells or Coach K. 8-13 year olds playing 40-50 games in a 7-8 week summer span on traveling or allstar teams. Do that 7 or 8 summers in a row...hit a bumpy patch when you are going into H.S and it is easy to walk away. I do agree with you about specialization and playing sports to "get scholarships" rather than to playing to play
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Post by phantom on Mar 21, 2010 12:51:49 GMT -6
Football coaches are demanding more from their kids than ever before. We have comprehensive conditioning programs, 7-on-7 leagues and tournaments , powerlifting and "big man competitions, fund raising, study halls, character education, and spring ball. In some states they can practice, with some restrictions, virtually all year.
I just read a post on the Conditioning board in which a coach is contemplating running a 5 day a week summer conditioning program. There will probably also be 7 on 7s over the weekend. I've read posts in which coaches say that they have a conditioning session before school for football players who play other varsity sports in the winter and spring. Sometimes coaches have written that they start their winter program on the Monday immediately following their last football game and run it through school holidays right up to the start of 2-a-days.
I'm not saying that coaches are wrong for doing these things or that these programs aren't beneficial. We need to be aware, though, that we're asking a lot of these kids and their families so we shouldn't be surprised that fewer kids choose to participate.
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Post by los on Mar 21, 2010 12:55:01 GMT -6
I agree mariner, theres a lot more competition out there nowdays, as far as, extracurricular stuff that kids can participate in......not saying thats a bad thing, just the way it is nowdays......back when we were young, you couldn't get a real summer job till you got your ssn/card....that was at about 16, if I remember right?.....before that, in our part of the world, you had 2 choices of summer work for undocumented kid workers = working in the tobacco field or in the pinestraw business....both pretty nasty,hot jobs which made summer football practice not seem so dreadful.....and playing football or being in the band were about the only school activities going on in the late summer/fall....so our choices were very limited and it was a "sellers market" for the football coach = here's the product, this is what we expect, take it or leave it........with all the other interesting, challenging things available to young folks nowdays, participating in a demanding sport like football or any of the major sports, is on a long list of possibilities and its more of a "buyers market" for the kids interests.....Some have talked about doing things "because they are difficult", but that wasn't why I chose to play a sport.....I played cause it was fun and I enjoyed it......the crap you had to go thru at practice and all, and the extra time demands required, to play organized football, was just stuff you had to tolerate, to get to play on the team, during the season.......we played the rest of the year cause we loved it, not because it was "hard", lol.
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Post by blb on Mar 21, 2010 15:07:50 GMT -6
Football coaches are demanding more from their kids than ever before. We have comprehensive conditioning programs, 7-on-7 leagues and tournaments , powerlifting and "big man competitions, fund raising, study halls, character education, and spring ball. In some states they can practice, with some restrictions, virtually all year. I just read a post on the Conditioning board in which a coach is contemplating running a 5 day a week summer conditioning program. There will probably also be 7 on 7s over the weekend. I've read posts in which coaches say that they have a conditioning session before school for football players who play other varsity sports in the winter and spring. Sometimes coaches have written that they start their winter program on the Monday immediately following their last football game and run it through school holidays right up to the start of 2-a-days. I'm not saying that coaches are wrong for doing these things or that these programs aren't beneficial. We need to be aware, though, that we're asking a lot of these kids and their families so we shouldn't be surprised that fewer kids choose to participate. Exactly. Best post on this thread.
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Post by atalbert on Mar 22, 2010 7:38:44 GMT -6
I think it is a combination of "burn out", lack of immediate success/attention, and a relatively NEW phenomenon of being able to simulate it via football video games... Lastly, kids can now "legitimately" ( in their minds) participate in football via video games. I think the disconnect between simulated life and actual life is growing smaller in the minds of those younger, simply because it is what they know. Playing video game sports allows them to participate in a manner that is satisfactory to them, and they enjoy that MORE than participating in the sport itself. I think this is a great point and IMO has quite an effect on some of the "fence" or "margin" players. I call it the "Reset Button" mentality. You never actually lose a video game...you just hit reset and change the level of difficulty or change the team you are playing with until you win. The playing field can always be leveled or skewed to your advantage on XBox, and if you still can't win, play another game. 2 years ago, I had a kid who was getting his a$$ handed to him by a kid in a drill over and over and over. I could tell he was ready to just quit without actually doing the drill right. I got in his face a little about how this was real life and there wasn't any reset button like his XBox and how this kid was going to keep kicking his a$$ every time until he did it right. That was his one and only year of playing football. He said real football was alot harder than when he played in his backyard at home. He was 6'4 and 260 lbs and talked about being the "Urlacher of his block". You can imagine how the rest of the kids took that. I might as well have just duct taped pads around his entire body, painted a big target on him and told him to just stand still and keep his mouth guard in. He's now back to being a backyard and Xbox legend, sitll wearing his Urlacher jersey and talking about how if he wouldn't have hurt his ankle, he'd still be playing on the team....
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Post by hlb2 on Mar 22, 2010 8:01:01 GMT -6
Ok, so what's the fix if any? What are we to do to address the situation? We are a very rural school and lose kids to all the above, specialization, work, lack of interest etc. The former coach before me was very unfair and played favorites yet he did decent but always had low numbers. We have better numbers now, and are way worse than they were. Albeit talent has been down, but now we have the "hallway warriors" who claim "they don't want to play with a bunch of losers" instead of wanting to come out and help. The staff and I have been recruiting hard, but it's tough when kids don't want to commit, and don't want to work hard. What do you do?
As far as the offseason goes, if you lighten up, then your soft and you can't win with a "soft" offseason. If you 5 days a week and weekends, you burn them out. I've had people tell me "it'd be ok if you didn't have so much mandatory stuff in the summer." We have 3 lifting/conditioning days and 1 team day and that's it. All the kids have to do is make 80% of that which gives them 2 weeks off for vacation. I don't know anyone who's got the funds for a 2 week vacation, but we give it to them anyway. We try not to burn them out by doing fun stuff such as a modified 7 on 7, tire flips, truck pulls etc., but you always seem to lose some of them. Again, comes back to mom and dad saying "it's ok, your coach is an idiot for wanting you to get bigger, faster and stronger, your already good."
So what's the solution, or steps to the solution? How are some of you dealing with it? I think we've identified the problem, but is there hope?
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Post by coachguy83 on Mar 22, 2010 8:33:39 GMT -6
I don't think there is just one fix for the entire problem, but like the common cold you can treat the symptoms.
Specialization- The best way to treat this symptoms is as an entire athletic department. The basketball coaches have to be willing to tell their guys how playing football can help them rebounding just like a football coach has to tell that big basketball center that he'd make a good TE. If one coach in the athletic department is telling his players that they should only be playing X sport kids are going to start listening to him.
Scholarship Syndrome- Coaches at all levels need to do a better job of giving players and parents realistic expectations. It seems to me that 75% of the youth coaches in this country have 90% of their players convinced that they are a scholarship athlete and they're only in the 4th grade. I have never seen a 10 year old that was ready to step on the field and play for a Texas or USC (although there is at least one 8th grader) but the parents and the player gets told their the next INSERT PLAYER NAME and believe it.
Too Much- I'm only 26 years old and it amazes me how much things have changed since I was in school. It seems like kids are given too much of everything whether it be play dates, organized sports, videogames, or choices. The only thing we can do for this one is figure out how to become the best choice in your school.
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Post by blb on Mar 22, 2010 9:06:23 GMT -6
hlb2's post gets to the crux of the matter. Here are my suggestions.
Kids play football for two reasons: the camaraderie, and because it's fun. So in spite of the tough, hard nature of many aspects of the sport, we have to make sure it is fun as much as possible and that everyone is glad they are there.
Coaches have to remember that football is not as important to everyone as it is to us. Don't put so many demands or even requirements on kids that you're mad at them before season even starts when they can't or won't meet them all.
This is not college football and these kids are not on scholarship. They have a lot of things going on in their lives, for better or for worse.
Surround yourself with people to whom football means something. We spend too much time worrying about who isn't at weight room, conditioning, camps, etc.
I learned when recruiting as a college coach that a kid must want to be at your school or in case of HS in your program. In other words, don't try to talk him into it, or he'll think you owe him something. If a kid doesn't want it, find one that does. Want-to and diligent, purposeful work can make up for a lot of deficiencies.
Don't take it personally. If a kid doesn't play or your numbers are low, it's not necessarily a rejection of you or how you run your program.
My philosophy is be positive, but demanding. We try to present a confident attitude - "We will be successful if you GWTP!" - at all times and find something positive to say, even in the most difficult of circumstances.
It is positive to chew azz with a smile on your face.
We try to be realistic about the demands on kids' time and modern life by doing what we consider to be the minimum necessary to be competitive. For example:
We have conditioning workouts only three days a week for an hour and a half or less beginning after Thanksgiving (but not during holidays). They are not mandatory but we do test before two-a-days so kids are accountable and we give T-shirts to kids who show up for all summer workouts.
We have one three-day camp at end of July. We do three or four low intensity, non-competitive 7-on-7s during summer.
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Post by los on Mar 22, 2010 19:44:35 GMT -6
Thats an excellent post there blb.......and very similar to the way my buddy ran his program at a small rural HS(during the years I helped him).....he encouraged his kids to play multiple sports during the year(which exempted them from extra weight training/conditioning, as long as their other sports were in season))....since the vast majority of these kids worked in the summer in some kind of agri-business, he opened the weight room a couple evenings a week, like from 5:30 to 7:30 pm......since he catered to the majority's schedule, he had a good turnout....."most" of the team usually made both days.......he took them to a 1 week camp during the summer(which they had to save and pay for themselves) but it was usually a college camp, away from home, so it was like a fun adventure for most of them.....and they learned something(I recall the 2nd season they went to Troy St. camp and had a big time)........he did a little 7 on 7 during the summer, with some of the closer surrounding programs....nothing competitive though, just another learning experience vs some different kids(rather than an in house 7 on 7).....we did have a 2 week spring football season, but he waited until all the other spring sports were finished with their seasons/playoffs etc, until we started....we didn't do any 2 a days and practiced in the evening,(started at 6 pm till about 7:30pm) once the official season started(this was also great for me, as an off campus guy with a job, lol....I could even make it to practice on time)......once school started though, that was another story, lol.....The point is.....he catered to the majority of the kids schedules and lifestyles.......tried to be positive about the situation......and was rewarded with a decent turnout at a "very tiny" school and developed a growing interest in his program.
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Post by hlb2 on Mar 23, 2010 5:28:49 GMT -6
Thats an excellent post there blb.......and very similar to the way my buddy ran his program at a small rural HS(during the years I helped him).....he encouraged his kids to play multiple sports during the year(which exempted them from extra weight training/conditioning, as long as their other sports were in season))....since the vast majority of these kids worked in the summer in some kind of agri-business, he opened the weight room a couple evenings a week, like from 5:30 to 7:30 pm......since he catered to the majority's schedule, he had a good turnout....."most" of the team usually made both days.......he took them to a 1 week camp during the summer(which they had to save and pay for themselves) but it was usually a college camp, away from home, so it was like a fun adventure for most of them.....and they learned something(I recall the 2nd season they went to Troy St. camp and had a big time)........he did a little 7 on 7 during the summer, with some of the closer surrounding programs....nothing competitive though, just another learning experience vs some different kids(rather than an in house 7 on 7).....we did have a 2 week spring football season, but he waited until all the other spring sports were finished with their seasons/playoffs etc, until we started....we didn't do any 2 a days and practiced in the evening,(started at 6 pm till about 7:30pm) once the official season started(this was also great for me, as an off campus guy with a job, lol....I could even make it to practice on time)......once school started though, that was another story, lol.....The point is.....he catered to the majority of the kids schedules and lifestyles.......tried to be positive about the situation......and was rewarded with a decent turnout at a "very tiny" school and developed a growing interest in his program. That is us in a nutshell, but it still seems we have very poor turnout. I guess I shouldn't complain as we have better turnout for our off season stuff than the previous hc, and have roughly the same total numbers in the program that he had. We thought about doing this with our 2 a days as we went 8-10 in the morning, and 3-5 in the afternoon, and had some issues with kids missing the am to work etc. I had one coach who comes from a rural school as well that coached for a guy that had 1 4 hour practice session, that consisted of 1 hr. o, 1 hr. d, 1 hr. 30 min. s.t. and 30 min. of some kind of drills with a 30 min. break and 30 min. of chalk talk. Seemed like you would lose their interest, but he did it from 3 to 7 during the beginning of the season and didn't have any problems where they were at. I like 2 a days, but it seems like we pull our hair out to get kids at both practices, and we even ended up removing some guys from the team for missing too many practices unexcused. Just lookin' for the better mousetrap!
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Post by blb on Mar 23, 2010 5:46:50 GMT -6
hlb2, I know a coach who was in a rural, agricultural (corn country) community's high school, enrollment around 470, but had great success including state championship.
To accomodate his kids, their Pre-Season practice was 8 am-Noon: 50 minutes on the field, 10 minutes off.
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Post by hlb2 on Mar 23, 2010 19:06:46 GMT -6
Interesting...
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