rocket1
Sophomore Member
Posts: 146
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Post by rocket1 on Jan 1, 2010 21:14:38 GMT -6
In Alabama, many larger private schools play in the AHSAA and there is also a private school only league. I have been a HC at both a private and public school in AHSAA and I find the established rules very interesting. For the private school, a multiplier of 1.35 applied which pushes most private schools up at least 1 class. The concern has always been about recruiting and kids leaving the public schools to go to privates. Alabama has 2 rules in place that I would think would eliminate the need for the multiplier.
1. To leave one school, public or private, and be eligible at any other school, you must make a bona fide move. In most cases, this is actually investigated by the schools and sometimes the AHSAA. 2. Any student that receives any financial aid, need based or not, they are ineligible for their first year at that school.
If these 2 rules are in place and enforced, there is no need for the multiplier. All it does is punish the smaller privates that don't give any financial aid and really survive with their own homegrown kids.
So yes, in Alabama, there is a debate regarding the public private issues.
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Post by coache67 on Jan 1, 2010 22:01:56 GMT -6
And there is no way around this or loophole rocket1?
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rocket1
Sophomore Member
Posts: 146
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Post by rocket1 on Jan 1, 2010 22:17:51 GMT -6
I assume for some people and coaches, they never saw a rule or regulation that couldn't find away around, usually illegally, hoping they won't get caught.
You would be amazed at how schools keep up with kids that have left their program and school, looking to be able to turn another school in to the state. As for the overall school numbers, those are handled by the administration and the state. Everybody knows there are some schools that fudge on their numbers to get what they want but that also speaks volumes for the character of those administrators and coaches and it is generally know by everybody. Again, just my thoughts!
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Post by davecisar on Jan 2, 2010 7:05:37 GMT -6
In Alabama, many larger private schools play in the AHSAA and there is also a private school only league. I have been a HC at both a private and public school in AHSAA and I find the established rules very interesting. For the private school, a multiplier of 1.35 applied which pushes most private schools up at least 1 class. The concern has always been about recruiting and kids leaving the public schools to go to privates. Alabama has 2 rules in place that I would think would eliminate the need for the multiplier. 1. To leave one school, public or private, and be eligible at any other school, you must make a bona fide move. In most cases, this is actually investigated by the schools and sometimes the AHSAA. 2. Any student that receives any financial aid, need based or not, they are ineligible for their first year at that school. If these 2 rules are in place and enforced, there is no need for the multiplier. All it does is punish the smaller privates that don't give any financial aid and really survive with their own homegrown kids. So yes, in Alabama, there is a debate regarding the public private issues. Ok let's apply this for instance a student attending a Public school in say North Memphis. He is being threatened by his fellow students because he wants to excell ( it happens, I know) . Lots of violence in the school. According to statistics only 28% of his classmates will graduate and it is VERY dangerous where he goes to schoolm shootings etc. The teaching, maybe the best teachers dont want to teach there, the SAT scores are extremely low. His parents/parent do their darndest to get him out of this school system, they cant afford to move, but they get a combination of financial aid and take another job etc. and send the kid to a private school. The kid has to sit out? The kid from the Blind Side would have had to sit out I guess according to the above scenario. Unlike what the movie protrayed the kid knew how to play and loved the game- not playing may have been enough to push him to stay in the awful situation he was in vs taking the helping hand that was offered. I kinda like the results of the choice he made. The poor kid was SO FAR behind, had to be tutored night and day to catch up. Had he stayed where he was at, doubtful he would have had the grades to play anywhere. What's best for the kids? Being stuck in an underperforming dead end and dysfunctional school or getting to a place that is safe, that can discipline kids and has a high bar academically. What's best for the kids may not be what is in the self interest of the football coach from the school the kid is leaving, Im sure his former coach didnt like loosing the Blind Side kid. But what was in the best interest of the child? Penalize those kids and hold the kids hostage to the local school because a football coach is losing a few games, really? In my inner city program I had a number of kids get "scholarships" and even though my alma mater is Public and in the neighborhood and I would love to see them do well AND the private school was a big rival- I always counceled the parents to send them to the private school- safe, 95% of the kids go on to college, great test scores- exact opposite at the local public school AND I might add they took several kids that were VERY average athletic and size wise. All boys school, uniforms, VERY high discipline and academic standards- my kids often have a tough time adjusting year 1 and then really blossom. Golly I would hate for anyone try and take that away for the sake of a few football wins.
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Post by John Knight on Jan 2, 2010 7:14:35 GMT -6
Got no problem with that Dave. Just do not play against each other and call it fair because of number of students. Would it be fair for a div 2 college to play schools from the SEC in a tournament? Same number of players just different pool of candidates. That is what I am saying.
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Post by davecisar on Jan 2, 2010 7:32:14 GMT -6
THis HS has a reasonble # of scholarship kids who dont play sports, several of my kids ended up not playing football unfortunately, didnt grow etc after puberty or really werent that great to begin with. Most of the kids playing there, say 95% were kids paying 100% tuition, local kids going where their friends went or kids whose parents wanted them in "succcess" environment, safety, religious etc etc, Lots of reasons other than football often to go to these schools and guess what, some of those boys enjoy playing football. The rules some are suggesting as to geography would stop many of those wanting to go to those schools, just for a few football wins. And for some- if the rule was changed and they continued to contunuously lose ( some would) what then?
Might add Jon LEchner ( University of Ohio 320 lbs) played for me for 5 years, lives in the hood, single parent family. Was offered 'scholarship" to said school. It was very partial, they had to come up with a huge wad of cash to send him even though the family was very low income, Ive been to the house several times etc. Sometimes things arent always like they seem. Im sure there are schools out there that do bad things, there are also plenty of private schools like the one some of my kids ended up going to that dont ( but people still think they do because they consistently win)
What's left out of the equation of many of these ideas is what is best for the child instead of what's best for the football team/record. Im sure what some would like is to abolish all choice, force all kids to go to the local public high school no matter how unsafe, unsound or no matter how objectionable the curriculum was to the parents world view. BUT all the teams would be "equal". No they wouldnt- Here the suburban public schools would still reign even though the inner city public schools are huge palaces in many cases. Then we would have to move on and force the next move to make it fair: every school must have an equal number of kids from each zip code on each team. It would never end.
I might add that Ive coached youth ball for 21 years. This season I had the best kid on my team that Ive ever had. 8th grader, 5'10" and 160 lbs ( now he's 170) . Smart, fast, strong, aggressive, NO ONE has offered him anything, he's going to the local public school. Reason: it's reasonably safe, has reasonably good academics, has reasonably good sports teams, his friends go there, it is pretty close and they have descent graduation rates. Lots of advantages the publics have. THAT'S why he hasnt seeked out the Private option.
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Post by John Knight on Jan 2, 2010 7:42:22 GMT -6
I am talking about playoffs, that has nothing to do with record. The regular season would not be the least bit effected. Just change the playoff format so that small schools with very few kids that really even try to be competitive do not have to face a stacked deck when they get their once in a lifetime team that is good enough to win a region or state championship.
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Post by davecisar on Jan 2, 2010 8:19:10 GMT -6
The interesting thing about the situation here: THe one Largest Class private school that has been accused of recruiting stud athletes, was accused because it is 95+% white and many of the black kids play sports In the next Largest Class another newer private school has started to dominate several sports, but doesnt have a single black player. Still they get stones thrown in thier direction, sometimes when you win, no matter what you do people are going to talk. I realize it happens differently in many places, but there has to be some areas that are like mine as well.
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Post by John Knight on Jan 2, 2010 8:48:37 GMT -6
Yeah, I don't know what that has to do with anything. For large schools with over 500 boys, there is no way to say it is not fair unless you know someone is loading up or cheating. I am sure it never happens there.
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Post by John Knight on Jan 2, 2010 10:31:18 GMT -6
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Post by John Knight on Jan 2, 2010 10:40:09 GMT -6
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Post by John Knight on Jan 2, 2010 10:59:19 GMT -6
Little reverse whining! www.usjbruins.org/athletics/index.htmlUSJ tackles Division II in athletics University School of Jackson’s move to Division II this year brings on a whole new set of challenges, more games in the Memphis area, and a host of different competing teams. The USJ Board of Trustees made the decision to move to Division II after the TSSAA Board of Control voted to continue the 1.8 enrollment multiplier for Division I private schools. USJ had taken a strong position in opposition to this system, which threw USJ into district competition with much larger schools that also have much larger coaching staffs. “The multiplier often placed our student-athletes unfairly in competition with these much larger schools. As a result, and despite the determination and courage of our athletes, our ability to compete successfully diminished,” said Head of School Clay Lilienstern. Division II schools are divided into two regions: East/Middle and West. USJ plays in the West region as a Class A or smaller school. The West is subdivided into two districts with the schools in each district varying by sport. Schools in the West District include Jackson Christian and Fayette Academy (USJ’s long-time rivals that also moved to Division II this year), Bishop Byrne, Evangelical Christian School, Elliston Baptist School, First Assembly Christian School, Harding Academy, Immaculate Conception, Lausanne, Memphis Catholic, Rossville Christian, St. George’s Independent School, Southern Baptist Educational Center, and Tipton Rosemark Academy. “We look forward to competing in Division II,” said Scott Phillipps, Athletic and Upper School Director. “Our student-athletes and coaches have a strong work ethic, and we know we’ll continue to do well in sports.” Coach Mickey Marley has seen the triumph of advancing to state title play as a Class A school in Division I and the frustration of competing against much larger schools in Class AA in Division I when the multiplier was added. “Division II became our best option when it was obvious that the multiplier was not going to change,” Marley said. “We are now playing against schools that share the same mission we do.”
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Post by John Knight on Jan 2, 2010 11:01:17 GMT -6
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Post by davecisar on Jan 2, 2010 11:28:08 GMT -6
Nice one, I like his solution play football kind of like bowling, you have a "handicap". Based on the muliplier you get to multiply the number of points you score by the muntiplier- you score 25, your multiplier is 1.5 you get 37.5 points Gotta love the satirists, sometimes the absurd illustrations they draw make you think a little.
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Post by John Knight on Jan 2, 2010 11:36:28 GMT -6
The biggest problem in Ohio really is population density to geography. We have so few schools in SE Ohio that we have to be in a region with schools from 25 miles away with a much higher population density. That is a why a regional Championship format would make a lot more sense!
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Post by wingtol on Jan 2, 2010 13:20:09 GMT -6
The biggest problem in Ohio really is population density to geography. We have so few schools in SE Ohio that we have to be in a region with schools from 25 miles away with a much higher population density. That is a why a regional Championship format would make a lot more sense! Why don't we just hand out trophies to everyone then, just like 3rd grade soccer. Everyone will be a winner and no one's feeling will be hurt! I am not sure if you are mad at private schools or mad at schools near large populations. If you start dividing private and public then divide it more into regions and district titles only where do you stop?
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Post by John Knight on Jan 2, 2010 15:56:45 GMT -6
Well there are 6 divisions now, why not have 12? Ohio has the most schools per divisions of all the states except maybe PA.
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