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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 3, 2009 10:43:16 GMT -6
Wow... the CAA has lost two teams in 10 days. sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4709412The President of the University basically states that FCS football is not worth competing in: "As we continue to improve our academic programs and reputation, and plan the University's future, we have to consider the investment we make in all of the University's programs," Rabinowitz said. "The cost of the football program, now and in the future, far exceeds the return possible from an FCS program, which does not generate significant national interest. Given that, along with the low level of interest, financial support and attendance among our students, our alumni and the community, the choice was painful, but clear." www.gohofstra.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=109571&SPID=13582&DB_OEM_ID=22200&ATCLID=204843540 |
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Post by reignman03 on Dec 3, 2009 10:53:23 GMT -6
This is sad, especially when Hofstra has always been competitive in the conference. In addition, they have developed some very good NFL players recently (Colston, Chrebet, and Colon) to name a few.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 3, 2009 10:57:47 GMT -6
Lance Schulters as well.
What is most concerning to me is that the President of the University was the first person to outright say that financially 1AA (FCS) doesn't work for many schools. Not saying that he is wrong in this assertion, but are we looking at a landscape of the BCS conferences...and everyone else DIII?
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Post by bobgoodman on Dec 3, 2009 10:57:53 GMT -6
This is additionally disturbing because I associate the place with football for 2 reasons not having to do with their own football program. One is that the Jets have trained there for many years. The other is that not only does the college have a substantial stadium, but there's a spare one next door run by the county that's been used by other teams I've seen play there.
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Post by jgordon1 on Dec 3, 2009 11:18:51 GMT -6
Lance Schulters as well. What is most concerning to me is that the President of the University was the first person to outright say that financially 1AA (FCS) doesn't work for many schools. Not saying that he is wrong in this assertion, but are we looking at a landscape of the BCS conferences...and everyone else DIII? The oline guy there played for me years ago...He used to coach at Richmond but was let go when London came in...Tough Luck for him and his family..He doesn't have a teaching cert either..IMO the way college football should be is...either you buy in all the way 85 scholarships....gig time etc..or you go the DIII route w/ financial aid..All or nothing.... D3 Football serves a great purpose..provides exposure for the school..brings in males from every socio-economic level..etc.. I could see different levels of D3...divided up by academics maybe |
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 3, 2009 11:29:12 GMT -6
Lance Schulters as well. What is most concerning to me is that the President of the University was the first person to outright say that financially 1AA (FCS) doesn't work for many schools. Not saying that he is wrong in this assertion, but are we looking at a landscape of the BCS conferences...and everyone else DIII? The oline guy there played for me years ago...He used to coach at Richmond but was let go when London came in...Tough Luck for him and his family..He doesn't have a teaching cert either..IMO the way college football should be is...either you buy in all the way 85 scholarships....gig time etc..or you go the DIII route w/ financial aid..All or nothing.... D3 Football serves a great purpose..provides exposure for the school..brings in males from every socio-economic level..etc.. I could see different levels of D3...divided up by academics maybe I agree with you about the landscape... however, if the presidents start looking at the football teams as profit centers rather than extra curricular activities, when do we see some of the 85 scholly schools closing up shop. The big business genie is out of the bottle... |
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hwkfn1
Junior Member
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Post by hwkfn1 on Dec 3, 2009 11:30:46 GMT -6
I wonder if those schools are compliant with Title IX? Do they now have more female athletic scholarships than male?
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Post by coachbrown3 on Dec 3, 2009 11:45:57 GMT -6
This is a shame....I played in the CAA (back when it was the Atlantic 10) & to see Northeastern and Hofstra gone now, makes me worried for my alma mater. Both teams struggled in terms of attendance, but most teams in that league do except for Delaware, Richmond, and JMU.
I do feel bad though for the guys on scholarship and the coaching staff and their families. I hope they can all find places to work next season.
Great FCS league losing members doesn't bode well, but they will be adding Georgia St. & Old Dominion in the next two years. It gives the league a more Mid-Atlantic feel now as opposed to a North East feel.
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Post by jgordon1 on Dec 3, 2009 12:11:49 GMT -6
This is a shame....I played in the CAA (back when it was the Atlantic 10) & to see Northeastern and Hofstra gone now, makes me worried for my alma mater. Both teams struggled in terms of attendance, but most teams in that league do except for Delaware, Richmond, and JMU. I do feel bad though for the guys on scholarship and the coaching staff and their families. I hope they can all find places to work next season. Great FCS league losing members doesn't bode well, but they will be adding Georgia St. & Old Dominion in the next two years. It gives the league a more Mid-Atlantic feel now as opposed to a North East feel. HA..I played in the CAA when it was the Yankee conference....I'm gettin old |
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Post by jgordon1 on Dec 3, 2009 12:15:52 GMT -6
The oline guy there played for me years ago...He used to coach at Richmond but was let go when London came in...Tough Luck for him and his family..He doesn't have a teaching cert either..IMO the way college football should be is...either you buy in all the way 85 scholarships....gig time etc..or you go the DIII route w/ financial aid..All or nothing.... D3 Football serves a great purpose..provides exposure for the school..brings in males from every socio-economic level..etc.. I could see different levels of D3...divided up by academics maybe I agree with you about the landscape... however, if the presidents start looking at the football teams as profit centers rather than extra curricular activities, when do we see some of the 85 scholly schools closing up shop. The big business genie is out of the bottle... Very few DI schools actually realize a profit in dollars and cents terms..and if they had to pay stadium rent like the NFL..well even fewer..however..the publicity is enormous...I'm a New England guy so ...A team like BC gets put on the map because of Flutie..after his famous pass..applications are up..they get to be more selective in the application process...which brings better,..ie richer students....get more donations to build facilties..not just athletic either..and it keep s rolling from there..BC went from a NE presence to a top 30 team...so if a major team loses 2-3 million a year it's not a big deal in the whole scope of things..the questions these chancellors have to ask themselves..is it worth it?? Obvious for Nu and Hofstra the answer is no....IMHO..this decision will hurt Hofstra more than Northeastern..I don't know if most of you know but NU is a major University in a major College city that attracts academic talent literally from all over the world..Don't think Hofstra can say that |
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Post by wingtol on Dec 3, 2009 13:16:41 GMT -6
I think one of the problems is that the NCAA mandates all sports play at the same level now. So in order to have a D-1 basketball team your football team needs to be D-1 and so on and so on. Now there may be some kind of exception for some sports, I know of some schools around here that are D-2 but have D-1 wrestling. So I am wondering if that has had a big effect on these schools that maybe shouldn't have D-1 football being forced to have a D-1 program so other sports can participate at that level.
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Post by bobgoodman on Dec 3, 2009 18:51:13 GMT -6
I think one of the problems is that the NCAA mandates all sports play at the same level now. So in order to have a D-1 basketball team your football team needs to be D-1 and so on and so on. Now there may be some kind of exception for some sports, I know of some schools around here that are D-2 but have D-1 wrestling. I'm sure there must be exceptions for many sports, because there are just too many where a single sport is a really big deal, and competing at that level would be ridiculous elsewhere. Not only wrestling, but fencing, lacross, and soccer come quickly to mind. The NCAA is getting like HS if they think they can sort out all sports like that. Say your college is a power in varsity soccer in the NCAA, and say your football club wants to move up to varsity status so they can play some nearby NCAA colleges. Are you saying the NCAA's rule is now that they'd have to either start in a division that matches the college's soccer, or stay out of NCAA competition entirely? |
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 3, 2009 19:08:06 GMT -6
I think one of the problems is that the NCAA mandates all sports play at the same level now. So in order to have a D-1 basketball team your football team needs to be D-1 and so on and so on. Now there may be some kind of exception for some sports, I know of some schools around here that are D-2 but have D-1 wrestling. I'm sure there must be exceptions for many sports, because there are just too many where a single sport is a really big deal, and competing at that level would be ridiculous elsewhere. Not only wrestling, but fencing, lacross, and soccer come quickly to mind. The NCAA is getting like HS if they think they can sort out all sports like that. Say your college is a power in varsity soccer in the NCAA, and say your football club wants to move up to varsity status so they can play some nearby NCAA colleges. Are you saying the NCAA's rule is now that they'd have to either start in a division that matches the college's soccer, or stay out of NCAA competition entirely? I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that is how it has always been. That is the purpose of FCS (1AA). It allowed less well funded athletic programs to compete on the Div 1 level in athletics without having to keep up with the Joneses in football. I am fairly certain that it is SCHOOL based, not program based. For example, Tulane University somewhat recent BASEBALL's success probably kept Tulane University from deciding to change to Div III status. Wingtol...to which schools are you referring? Again, could be wrong, but I believe you will find they are all DI (assuming wrestling is DI) Don't make the mistake of thinking that the classification equates to superiority. The Ivy League and Pioneer league do not give any athletic scholarships. The Patriot League gives athletic scholarships but NOT football schollies and anyone on scholarship is ineligible to play football. The NEC was also non scholly until 2006 and now funds 30 schollies (this will go up over the next few seasons). These schools are all Div 1 schools and many if not most in these leagues could get thrashed about by several Div II and Div III programs. |
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Post by phantom on Dec 3, 2009 19:12:34 GMT -6
I think one of the problems is that the NCAA mandates all sports play at the same level now. So in order to have a D-1 basketball team your football team needs to be D-1 and so on and so on. Now there may be some kind of exception for some sports, I know of some schools around here that are D-2 but have D-1 wrestling. I'm sure there must be exceptions for many sports, because there are just too many where a single sport is a really big deal, and competing at that level would be ridiculous elsewhere. Not only wrestling, but fencing, lacross, and soccer come quickly to mind. The NCAA is getting like HS if they think they can sort out all sports like that. Say your college is a power in varsity soccer in the NCAA, and say your football club wants to move up to varsity status so they can play some nearby NCAA colleges. Are you saying the NCAA's rule is now that they'd have to either start in a division that matches the college's soccer, or stay out of NCAA competition entirely? Yup. |
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Post by wingtol on Dec 3, 2009 19:54:32 GMT -6
Wingtol...to which schools are you referring? Again, could be wrong, but I believe you will find they are all DI (assuming wrestling is DI) Well the school I graduated from....D-2 football, basketball, etc. D-1 Wrestling power. So there is some kind of exception out there, unless they were grandfathered in some how. I know there are also several D-1 "non-scholarship" football programs (about equal to D-3) in the area so that those school's basketball teams can be real D-1 teams. |
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Post by airman on Dec 3, 2009 20:55:37 GMT -6
there are or were exceptions out there. University of North Dakota is and has been a major hockey power and was d 2 in football. now they made the jump to FCS. I think it was mainly becaue NDSU, U of South Dakota when and now South Dakota state has made the jump.
I can see why they want to do this. Imagine if all your sports except football where D 1 and your football team was D3. now you recruit the D 1 sprinters to be skill positions on your d3 football team. you now have an advantage.
personally I would like to see strictly D1, D2, and D3. end D1aa all together. increase scholarships from 36 at d2 to say 45.
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Post by hemlock on Dec 3, 2009 21:55:10 GMT -6
This economics of college football are similar to those of our national economy. It's sort of a Rube Goldberg scheme. There is this myth out there that we as football people frequently use to convince others that our sport actually justifies its enormous costs. There are very few programs that are profitable in terms of dollars and cents. Those that do make money generally inject their revenue back into the athletic department. What the university gets are collateral kickbacks and other scraps. It also depends on the economic model of the university. In many instances the athletic department is incorporated separately from the university; they are a distinct business entity that has a business relationship with the university. Too many details to delve into right now.
The bottom line is that even for many DIA schools football is moneypit. Do you think SunBelt teams really are profitable for their universities? What makes a program worthwhile is conference affliation with a TV contract. This is what floats the SunBelt, for example.
I think you will see more and more schools at the lower levels either jettison football or drop down to DIII.
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Post by bobgoodman on Dec 3, 2009 23:58:44 GMT -6
Can, say, a nominally D1 team join a conference otherwise composed of D2 or D3 teams?
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Post by Coach Huey on Dec 4, 2009 11:57:51 GMT -6
Can, say, a nominally D1 team join a conference otherwise composed of D2 or D3 teams?    |
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Post by bobgoodman on Dec 4, 2009 14:19:27 GMT -6
Can, say, a nominally D1 team join a conference otherwise composed of D2 or D3 teams? I take it you want me to explain what I'm driving at. Say in an example like one given, your college has a hot shot fencing team that competes in D1, and the students have a football club that there's support for to become varsity next season -- but not at a level competitive with many D1 teams. Can they say they're entering a varsity football team in 1AA, and then have it join a D2 or D3 conference where they might be competitive in football? Does the D1 designation have to be anything more than a formality? Or conversely, could they formally demote their fencing team to D2 or D3 and still compete with it in a D1 league? |
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Post by coachbrown3 on Dec 7, 2009 10:55:43 GMT -6
What??? If you are in a D2 league then you're D2. I don't see where that question makes much sense.....
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Post by blb on Dec 7, 2009 11:16:01 GMT -6
What??? If you are in a D2 league then you're D2. I don't see where that question makes much sense..... There is no D-IAA in basketball. If your college-university wants to be D-I in hoops you must be at least D-IAA in football - that's why there are some D-IAA non-scholarship schools (Valparaiso, San Diego, Dayton, Drake?). Can't be D-II or III in football and D-I in basketball. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Dec 7, 2009 23:02:24 GMT -6
What??? If you are in a D2 league then you're D2. I don't see where that question makes much sense..... Then what I'm asking is what obligations and prohibitions there are on teams specific to the divisions they're in. I know they're allowed to play against teams in different divisions, unless that's changed in recent years. (Make that decades. Sometimes I get behind on these things.) Can a team (or entire program from JV to frosh) begin a season in a different division than last season's and keep everything else the same as it was the previous year, such as schedule? I know there are caps on such things as scholarships, but are there any minimums, like size of travel squad? |
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Post by coachbrown3 on Dec 8, 2009 18:08:51 GMT -6
What??? If you are in a D2 league then you're D2. I don't see where that question makes much sense..... Then what I'm asking is what obligations and prohibitions there are on teams specific to the divisions they're in. I know they're allowed to play against teams in different divisions, unless that's changed in recent years. (Make that decades. Sometimes I get behind on these things.) Can a team (or entire program from JV to frosh) begin a season in a different division than last season's and keep everything else the same as it was the previous year, such as schedule? I know there are caps on such things as scholarships, but are there any minimums, like size of travel squad? I think I see where your going with this question now. It sounds like you are thinking about something similar to a HS federation where teams can change classifications on enrollment figures. The difference between the divisions is based on the number of athletic scholarships available by the school. If you are giving out 85 schoalrships for football, than you are Division 1, FBS. If you are giving out 65, then you are Division 1, FCS, and so forth. You are able to play outside your division at the school's discretion. There are teams that play in FCS that will sometimes play a D2 school. Same in basketball-sometimes a D1 school will play a D2 school early in the season as a "warm-up" game before the conference schedule. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Dec 8, 2009 19:48:53 GMT -6
Then what I'm asking is what obligations and prohibitions there are on teams specific to the divisions they're in. I know they're allowed to play against teams in different divisions, unless that's changed in recent years. (Make that decades. Sometimes I get behind on these things.) Can a team (or entire program from JV to frosh) begin a season in a different division than last season's and keep everything else the same as it was the previous year, such as schedule? I know there are caps on such things as scholarships, but are there any minimums, like size of travel squad? The difference between the divisions is based on the number of athletic scholarships available by the school. If you are giving out 85 schoalrships for football, than you are Division 1, FBS. If you are giving out 65, then you are Division 1, FCS, and so forth. But that's just an upper limit, not a lower one, right? I mean you're not obligated to provide that many scholarships, right? Then what's the problem? If a college that's been a D1 in soccer wants to start varsity football and play D3 schools, what stops them from just calling their football team D1 pro forma and just playing in a circuit where all the other teams are D3? |
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Post by Coach Huey on Dec 9, 2009 12:49:48 GMT -6
bob, ask the ncaa. all the regulations, requirements etc. can be gathered through the ncaa manual and their website. you have lengthened this thread enough with no real reason. i would greatly appreciate it if you would continue posting only in the youth sections. thank you.
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