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Post by mattharris75 on Apr 23, 2009 9:30:28 GMT -6
gre3nday, I wasn't trying to say that you were implying everyone should call off a call-sheet. I was just illustrating what I believe to be the benefit of film study and even charting tendencies, even when not calling off a D&D play sheet.
Also, I'm not saying that that your intuition is = to a play sheet. Simply that it is 'informed' by the film study/play charting. I think that's undeniable. Intuition is, in large part, made up from previous experience. Studying a team's film provides that first hand experience that gives context and understanding of what they are trying to do. This becomes a part of your intuition. Our brains make connections, it's how they operate. This is much like the IQ vs. ID discussion from several weeks ago, just with different terminology.
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Post by gre3nday on Apr 23, 2009 9:35:09 GMT -6
Mattharris - sorry didn't mean to sound like I was having a go at you. I am genuinely interested in understanding why people would spend hours charting and looking at tendencies then not use them.
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Post by silkyice on Apr 23, 2009 9:38:50 GMT -6
Not using every means at your disposal to help your team is irresponsible in my view. I know what you mean, but I am going to disagree. There is the law of diminishing returns, overkill, information overload, paraylis by analysis, and exhustation. You need to be mentally fresh to coach your kids during the week and all season. If you spend all weekend, all week, and all season watching film you will hit a point where it hurts you instead of helps you. Exhaustion and family trouble will kill a season. Now if you are just being lazy, then that is irresponsible.
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Post by fbdoc on Apr 23, 2009 9:44:59 GMT -6
Silky, I was just about to say the same thing - Paralysis by Analysis. We look at Scheme and Personnel, and we also look for tendencies. But just because you "chart" a tendency something doesn't mean its going to be useful on Friday night. Information is good but too much information is worse than no information at all.
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Post by Coach Bennett on Apr 23, 2009 9:45:13 GMT -6
What does interest me however is how on one hand you hear coaches saying they won't spen a minute practicing somehting if it is going to be used in a game. But they are quite happy spending hours gathering information that they won't use in a game. And on the flip-side, what about those that crunch too many numbers and suffer "paralysis from analysis"? Anyone ever feel they have too much information?
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Post by Coach Bennett on Apr 23, 2009 9:47:33 GMT -6
Silky, I was just about to say the same thing - Paralysis by Analysis. We look at Scheme and Personnel, and we also look for tendencies. But just because you "chart" a tendency something doesn't mean its going to be useful on Friday night. Information is good but too much information is worse than no information at all. fbdoc: you beat me to it!
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Post by atalbert on Apr 23, 2009 11:48:00 GMT -6
Pattern recognition. Like what dcohio said, sometimes you just get a feel for a guy. That doesn't come from plotting and diagramming every play, but from merely watching the play caller work. Just watch the game. As a general rule, you are analytical in your gameplanning......this is what we do on 3rd down, etc........but to be a good coordinator, you must have the ability to "figure it out" during the course of the game. The plan is diligent anaylsis. The adjustments are pattern recognitions. I think dubber is exactly right. Obviously its hard to take into account the exact game situation on the tape you're watching. Were they up 20 or down 20? I try and find patterns in 1) How they start games/quarters/drives and 2) What they fall back on in "stressful situations" i.e. - when its nut-cuttin time, what do they think they can get 3 yards with? Or 7 yards? or 15? What plays have they been successful with out of certain formations on 3rd & 5 with the game on the line.
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Post by mitch on Apr 24, 2009 19:58:45 GMT -6
Not using every means at your disposal to help your team is irresponsible in my view. I know what you mean, but I am going to disagree. There is the law of diminishing returns, overkill, information overload, paraylis by analysis, and exhustation. You need to be mentally fresh to coach your kids during the week and all season. If you spend all weekend, all week, and all season watching film you will hit a point where it hurts you instead of helps you. Exhaustion and family trouble will kill a season. Now if you are just being lazy, then that is irresponsible. That's why I believe there is an art to gameplanning. I definitely think you need to chart/analyze every piece of info you can garner from game films, and then the important part. You have to take all the the stuff that is useless to you (might not be the same stuff as me) and disregard it. Only use the info that is pertinent to you that will allow your team to prepare as efficiently as possible. Ex. they run a certain line stunt 3 times total in 3 games that would give your base play problems. Do you rep it in practice or not? I say no. Who cares if they guess right once or twice and get you in a game? I'd rather not worry about it, rep my base play against what we will see 99% of the night, than take reps away against a 'what if' that looks scary on paper. (Oh sh!it, if they do that stunt they'll kill us, better put it in 5 times during inside). For me, I only want the info that will allow us to practice efficiently. We do that, we have a great chance.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 25, 2009 18:20:08 GMT -6
Only use the info that is pertinent to you that will allow your team to prepare as efficiently as possible. Ex. they run a certain line stunt 3 times total in 3 games that would give your base play problems. Do you rep it in practice or not? I say no. Who cares if they guess right once or twice and get you in a game? I'd rather not worry about it, rep my base play against what we will see 99% of the night, than take reps away against a 'what if' that looks scary on paper. (Oh sh!it, if they do that stunt they'll kill us, better put it in 5 times during inside). For me, I only want the info that will allow us to practice efficiently. We do that, we have a great chance. Aren't you discounting the fact that the other guys get paid too? So when the other guys watch your film, see your base plays, see they have something in their package that will eat it up....do you think you are only going to see it once or twice?
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Post by fbdoc on Apr 25, 2009 21:18:26 GMT -6
You can't control what the other team does - yes, the other team is going to watch your film. But you don't know how much they are going to pay attention, adjust, prepare, or change just because of something they see. You need to focus on what you do well, and trying to take away what they do well. I just hate the thought process of "What do we do if they run blah-blah-blah?" Well Coach, I don't think we're going to see it because they've only ran it once in the past 4 games! And if they do run, our kids will just have to play defense!
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Post by phantom on Apr 25, 2009 21:39:13 GMT -6
You can't control what the other team does - yes, the other team is going to watch your film. But you don't know how much they are going to pay attention, adjust, prepare, or change just because of something they see. You need to focus on what you do well, and trying to take away what they do well. I just hate the thought process of "What do we do if they run blah-blah-blah?" Well Coach, I don't think we're going to see it because they've only ran it once in the past 4 games! And if they do run, our kids will just have to play defense! I'm with CoachD, you can't prepare for a game working under the assumption that the other coach is incompetent. If they have shown that they do something that can hurt you you have to prep for it. You may not work it to death but you need to have an answer. Otherwise why go through the trouble of collecting data.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 26, 2009 7:52:20 GMT -6
You can't control what the other team does - yes, the other team is going to watch your film. But you don't know how much they are going to pay attention, adjust, prepare, or change just because of something they see. You need to focus on what you do well, and trying to take away what they do well. I just hate the thought process of "What do we do if they run blah-blah-blah?" Well Coach, I don't think we're going to see it because they've only ran it once in the past 4 games! And if they do run, our kids will just have to play defense! I'm with CoachD, you can't prepare for a game working under the assumption that the other coach is incompetent. If they have shown that they do something that can hurt you you have to prep for it. You may not work it to death but you need to have an answer. Otherwise why go through the trouble of collecting data. Exactly. Now the key point in my argument is the hypothetical said it was a base play. If they ran something 3 times in 3 games that would crush something I run 3 times in 3 games...I wouldn't worry about that much at all. But I think you DO need to "what if" the heck out of anything you hang your hat on, even if they have never shown it.
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Post by fbdoc on Apr 26, 2009 8:06:06 GMT -6
I think we're talking about the same thing. MY "what if" was referring to what if they run this one play... Of course you're going to address the possibility with your team but you don't want it to turn into that old NFL Films montage where coaches are yelling, Watch the ,,, screen, draw, play action pass, etc... and then the final clip is a coach yelling "Watch Everything!" I'm not advocating that we stop Watching film and looking for tendencies - but you need to have useful information not paralysis by analysis.
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Post by mitch on Apr 26, 2009 9:26:43 GMT -6
I'm with CoachD, you can't prepare for a game working under the assumption that the other coach is incompetent. If they have shown that they do something that can hurt you you have to prep for it. You may not work it to death but you need to have an answer. Otherwise why go through the trouble of collecting data. Exactly. Now the key point in my argument is the hypothetical said it was a base play. If they ran something 3 times in 3 games that would crush something I run 3 times in 3 games...I wouldn't worry about that much at all. But I think you DO need to "what if" the heck out of anything you hang your hat on, even if they have never shown it. Your right. We are going to have answers to whatever a defense could do to our base stuff. And practice it even if we don't see the other team doing it. A better scenario would have been if the stunt would blow up a complimentary play you run an average of 3 times a game. Then you don't worry about it. That's my point.
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Post by phantom on Apr 26, 2009 9:33:23 GMT -6
Exactly. Now the key point in my argument is the hypothetical said it was a base play. If they ran something 3 times in 3 games that would crush something I run 3 times in 3 games...I wouldn't worry about that much at all. But I think you DO need to "what if" the heck out of anything you hang your hat on, even if they have never shown it. Your right. We are going to have answers to whatever a defense could do to our base stuff. And practice it even if we don't see the other team doing it. A better scenario would have been if the stunt would blow up a complimentary play you run an average of 3 times a game. Then you don't worry about it. That's my point. I agree. There is a fine line between being prepared and chasing ghosts. When I say that we need an answer it may be that we keep it to ourselves (the coaches) as an in-game adjustment.
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