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Post by 19delta on Mar 15, 2009 18:57:50 GMT -6
Define "injured". One could make a serious argument that those boys only have 4 years to play ball, and a moron at the helm could be negatively affecting those youngsters. Is the answer saying "Oh well, the administrators hired him, but they don't see whats going on... to bad for those kids" If your son was playing for one of those...wouldn't you want someone else looking out for your kid? The child comes first. Give that man a cee-gar!
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Post by brophy on Mar 16, 2009 5:36:45 GMT -6
Define "injured". One could make a serious argument that those boys only have 4 years to play ball, and a moron at the helm could be negatively affecting those youngsters. Is the answer saying "Oh well, the administrators hired him, but they don't see whats going on... to bad for those kids" If your son was playing for one of those...wouldn't you want someone else looking out for your kid? The child comes first. I'm not arguing delta's actions, feelings, or beliefs. I'm sure he was 100% in the right. I AM suggesting that finding exceptions to the rule (of loyalty) is a self-serving endeavor. If my son was playing for a coach that was as horrible and inept as being depicted (I'm not arguing that), I doubt it would be only one former coach who would know about it, and I may likely just pull my son out and put him in a different school. They won't need a former assistant to 'jump on the pile' to make things happen. As an assistant coach charged with advancing the program, you have an obligation to serve the person who is leading the program. If that person is leading that program into the crapper (not doing anything illegal) and you cannot stomach it, it is your obligation (or prerogative) to find somewhere else to utilize your services.....the header isn't obligated to do things "your way" just because you're not used to it. If the HC is doing illegal activities and directly abusing the kids (not by the stretch definition of 'injure' my sons chances of getting a DI scholly), then you would be derelict if you did not report that to the authorities. Let us at least be clear on the scope of what we are actually talking about here. Being a whistleblower in a situation where improper activity is going on is one thing and there is no accountability - it is quite another to rant on a guy simply because you have philosophical differences. I mention that, because what we are doing here is looking for any excuse to justify disloyalty. "I don't like how HC does this", "I don't think I would've done that" therefore, it is my 'duty' to go out and assassinate this guy's character (even if he is a bum). That, to me, is petty. What we are saying is, if I get upset / frustrated enough, then 'yes'....disloyalty is okay/justified. I also acknowledge that if you are a teacher, the dynamic may be completely different, because afterall, many times your coaching job is directly tied to your position on the teaching staff, and "just leaving" isn't practical. I think that adds to the dynamic, but I do not see where it affords one to hold more credence than the HC ("HC should listen/comply to me because I have more invested in the program"). I completely respect it if you don't feel this way - thats cool. I am merely weighing in and clarifying my position.
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Post by jgordon1 on Mar 16, 2009 6:06:06 GMT -6
I feel that both Brophy and CoachD make excellent valid points. My question is: if this guy is so bad.. where is the AD? Where is the Principal? My AD has asked me on more than one occasion my feeling on certain matters... By the way he was framing the question, IMO he was trying to get me to say something negative... I told him to go speak w/ the HC. Is the AD trying to do his job? Asking me? I don't know... It seems to me (and I have never been an AD) that maybe they should attend practice occasionally. You can learn alot by just watching
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Post by 19delta on Mar 16, 2009 10:39:46 GMT -6
I completely respect it if you don't feel this way - thats cool. I am merely weighing in and clarifying my position. So, what would you do if you were working for a bum, you resigned after the season, and then the AD calls you in to find out why you quit?
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Post by khalfie on Mar 16, 2009 11:01:17 GMT -6
I feel that both Brophy and CoachD make excellent valid points. My question is: if this guy is so bad.. where is the AD? Where is the Principal? My AD has asked me on more than one occasion my feeling on certain matters... By the way he was framing the question, IMO he was trying to get me to say something negative... I told him to go speak w/ the HC. Is the AD trying to do his job? Asking me? I don't know... It seems to me (and I have never been an AD) that maybe they should attend practice occasionally. You can learn alot by just watching He said the coach was inept... not stupid... Some of the worst coaches are the best politicians... say the best things to the right people, shake the right hands, play the best round of golf. How many admins go to practice, monitor hours, examine coaching plans? How is an Ad really supposed to know what a HC is really doing, without looking over his should while he's doing it? And being its a hire the AD made, he's probably not trying to micro manage, and allowing his hire to do his job. Coaches get 3 to 4 years to produce results... they either do or don't? If the results are acceptable, even if possibly underachieving... that HC is going to have a gig for a while... and that may be enough for him. Long story short... if its not abuse... then move on, get with a program you believe in... or better yet, get your own program... But loyalty, to something you don't believe in? Isn't that called stupidity?
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Post by brophy on Mar 16, 2009 11:07:10 GMT -6
I completely respect it if you don't feel this way - thats cool. I am merely weighing in and clarifying my position. So, what would you do if you were working for a bum, you resigned after the season, and then the AD calls you in to find out why you quit? so because the AD asked why you resigned, it was absolutely necessary to vent and bad-mouth the guy? One could have just said, " I have my reasons", "It was not the right fit for me", "I felt it was a waste of my skills/time/resources to be utilized how this program is being run - philosophical differences" and be done with it. Again, you did what you did - no one is attacking you or asking you to justify your actions. You've moved on - great. I completely understand WHY one would do that (sense of justification), but I just don't see where it is necessary. If you work for McDonalds flipping burgers and your manager is a complete jerk-off, do you quit and just flip burgers at Wendys or do you go to the District Manager and complain to him about how Manager Bob tormented you? Again, if you go to the District Manager, that is your right - but I don't know that it is necessary to do that.
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Post by 19delta on Mar 16, 2009 11:45:56 GMT -6
If you work for McDonalds flipping burgers and your manager is a complete jerk-off, do you quit and just flip burgers at Wendys or do you go to the District Manager and complain to him about how Manager Bob tormented you? If the district manager calls me in and asks for specific reasons why I am quitting, I'm going to tell him. Why should I protect my former boss, who will most likely blame me for the breakup? The AD called me in and wanted specific reasons for why I wasn't going to coach any more. So, I told him. If he didn't want those answers, he shouldn't have asked the questions. Again, I did not go out seeking opportunities to expose this guy for what he is but, at the same time, I am NOT going to defend him and risk my own integrity. And that might not be popular and I may never work as an assistant coach again, but really, that's OK...if the trade-off for being an assistant coach means that you have to protect inept egomaniacs, then I am completely OK with not coaching again in that capacity. Like I said...I am a head coach now. I expect NOTHING LESS from my assistants. If I am a bad person...if I treat kids badly, if I am inept, if I waste time, if I make excuses and blame others for the shortcomings of the program, than I DESERVE to be called out for that. When this next season is over...if we are 0-9 and the kids hate the coaches and aren't having fun and the program has been run completely into the ground and the handful of decent assistants have been run off, I will take complete responsibility for that failure. That's the contract I agreed to when I accepted the head coaching position. What it comes down to is that guys like the coach I worked for last year...they are EXPERTS in the art of self-preservation...they spend the majority of their time manipulating information, assessing blame, and making excuses for why the team isn't competitive. And, like I said...those guys need to be exposed for what they are. I guess what it comes down to is that I'm just not an a$$kisser who is going to protect and apologize for ineptness, mine or someone else's. And honestly, I am probably completely wrong...heck, I'm on my 4th school in as many years! Maybe if I wasn't such an a$$hole and tried harder to get along with people, I wouldn't have to send so many resumes out! ;D
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Post by brophy on Mar 16, 2009 12:04:40 GMT -6
I am NOT going to defend him and risk my own integrity. I guess what it comes down to is that I'm just not an a$$kisser who is going to protect and apologize for ineptness, mine or someone else's. I think you may be taking this to a little extreme.......because no one has even suggested or hinted at doing any of that. If I am a bad person. ..if I treat kids badly, if I am inept, if I waste time, if I make excuses and blame others for the shortcomings of the program, than I DESERVE to be called out for that. I think the only thing I'm pumping the brakes on here is WHO gets to define that? Those parameters just seem a little too subjective and can be completely influenced based on emotions and how one feels about another. Lets say there is a guy you hire who is has a better pedigree and is used to things being done a different way and sees how you do it now as being completely inefficient and is unable to approach you about it? That is all I'm saying. It takes all kinds in this profession. Some guys are laid back, some guys are high strung. ....some guys are about themselves, some guys are about the kids..............some guys are just some guys - I don't know that there is ONE way to be a head coach. I agree that there are a LOT of less than competent HC's out there, but what can we do? God bless and have a great season, delta. I certainly appreciate your posts and insight.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Mar 16, 2009 12:20:45 GMT -6
Its not any different than if an AD had asked the header why you quit, hes going to give his side of the story, he would also tell his story of why he fired you if he did.
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Post by 19delta on Mar 16, 2009 12:21:39 GMT -6
If I am a bad person. ..if I treat kids badly, if I am inept, if I waste time, if I make excuses and blame others for the shortcomings of the program, than I DESERVE to be called out for that. I think the only thing I'm pumping the brakes on here is WHO gets to define that? Those parameters just seem a little too subjective and can be completely influenced based on emotions and how one feels about another. Lets say there is a guy you hire who is has a better pedigree and is used to things being done a different way and sees how you do it now as being completely inefficient and is unable to approach you about it? That is all I'm saying. God bless and have a great season, delta. I certainly appreciate your posts and insight. Brophy - You make a great point and I'm actually surprised that you didn't bring that up earlier. I guess that all I have to say is, after you have been coaching for enough years, you "know it when you see it" (kind of like porn). I have worked for guys in the past who weren't successful in regards to their coaching records, but they believed that there was more to this game than wins and losses...developing charactor, personal accountability, doing the right thing, being a good citizen...I can work for a program that maybe doesn't win as much as I would like as long as we are helping to develop men who will be good citizens.
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Post by khalfie on Mar 16, 2009 12:49:36 GMT -6
I am NOT going to defend him and risk my own integrity. I guess what it comes down to is that I'm just not an a$$kisser who is going to protect and apologize for ineptness, mine or someone else's. I think you may be taking this to a little extreme.......because no one has even suggested or hinted at doing any of that. If I am a bad person. ..if I treat kids badly, if I am inept, if I waste time, if I make excuses and blame others for the shortcomings of the program, than I DESERVE to be called out for that. I think the only thing I'm pumping the brakes on here is WHO gets to define that? Those parameters just seem a little too subjective and can be completely influenced based on emotions and how one feels about another. Lets say there is a guy you hire who is has a better pedigree and is used to things being done a different way and sees how you do it now as being completely inefficient and is unable to approach you about it? That is all I'm saying. It takes all kinds in this profession. Some guys are laid back, some guys are high strung. ....some guys are about themselves, some guys are about the kids..............some guys are just some guys - I don't know that there is ONE way to be a head coach. I agree that there are a LOT of less than competent HC's out there, but what can we do? God bless and have a great season, delta. I certainly appreciate your posts and insight. Bro... Before I attack you, allow me to preface my comments by stating, i appreciate you furthering the conversation to something that is more tangible... and that's dissent. Why are we so adverse to dissent? When called for, it should be confronted. I don't understand the theory, "go quietly into the night." When working with others, the relationships are everything... when the boss does not foster said relationships, then he / she creates the environment in which his integrity is called into question. There are two types of whistle blowers... those that do it, due to a lack of professionalism, and then those that do it to further professionalism. Either way, its up to the higher authorities to decide the reasoning. But any man, being accountable and responsible, has a duty, when asked, to right a wrong, when given the opportunity. If called, by my superiors, superior, to detail the dissolution of said relationship... it is pertinent upon all, to answer honestly and forthright... and if that happens to reflect negatively upon my previous boss, then so be it.
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Post by brophy on Mar 16, 2009 12:57:32 GMT -6
good stuff, Khalife..............I do not disagree at all with what you said.
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Post by PSS on Mar 16, 2009 13:14:45 GMT -6
I know where Brophy is coming from. You don't want to burn bridges in the coaching profession. If the said HC is that bad, then the powers to be do not need your input to make that determination. That is why it is better to say "I've found a better situation for myself."
There are times when a good coach is hung out to dry by disloyal assistants, ones' that want his job. They will make accusations, stretch the truth, etc, in order to get the HC out of the way. This isn't the business world. Coaching is / should be a brotherhood working together.
From my experiences of hiring assistant coaches and from getting hired, being disloyal will blacklist you quick. The HC's will call the previous HC for a reference. Whether they are on your reference list or not.
If your in a bad situation, tough it out until the end of the year and get out.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Mar 16, 2009 15:54:00 GMT -6
delta- I hope you put your resignation and reasons for resigning in writing. All it takes is for that header to say you were "fired" and youll find yourself having to explain to everyone that you resigned. If this guy has a history of throwing you under the bus I wouldnt expect it to stop just because you left.
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Post by coachorr on Mar 16, 2009 21:11:45 GMT -6
kahlfie. Some whistle blowers do it because they are privy or witness to some type of negligence.
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Post by coachorr on Mar 16, 2009 21:22:59 GMT -6
TDMaker said: "One thing, just my opinion on this- There is no taking a high road when kids are being treated poorly"
This is the end all of all phrases. Whatever your method of getting the message out, it must be told.
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Post by coachorr on Mar 16, 2009 21:28:39 GMT -6
Brophy asked: "Leave amiciably, Obey subserviently, or burn the house down."
Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire, they come and light a bag of dog poop on you front step, you have to go and burn their phucking house down.
In all honesty, I would have followed Brophy's advice and taken the high road, unless the HC continually denied my admonishments.
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